Need Opinions and Facts Please

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headlongflight's picture
Need Opinions and Facts Please

I am still searching for answers and have read many articles here and take in all points of view. I am new to this and still have fears that I know will take time to go away.

I have many doubts about believing in God, but still struggle as I have been conditioned my whole life to believe that way. I get help here and then someone makes a statement that puts doubt in my mind which begs a question. So with that said my question is, How can dark spirits be explained? I have witnessed them when I was young and have heard similar stories from other people. How could there be something perceived as dark or evil without something good to counter it?

If there is No God, how can there be a spirit?

Could something in our brains make us think we have seen a dark shadow or a feeling of evil?

I would appreciate any thoughts or facts on this from anyone that can help or anyone that knows what I am talking about. Thanks!

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Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
are you asking if there are

are you asking if there are non physical aspects to a human being?

headlongflight's picture
Yes I guess you could put it

Yes I guess you could put it that way. My understanding is that if there is No God, how can there be a soul or a spirit after death? What would explain what people refer to as ghosts, dark spirits or something dark haunting them. If there is No God I can't see a Devil either.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"If there is No God, how can

"If there is No God, how can there be a spirit?"

Some atheists believe in spirits, but as an emergent property of consciousness. They generally use arguments that appeal to the law of conservation, but I don't personally find them very compelling.

"Could something in our brains make us think we have seen a dark shadow or a feeling of evil?"

Yes. Huge yes. We are programmed psychologically to be generally paranoid and to consider the unknown dangerous, which is often felt as "evil" or "bad". On top of that, it isn't only our conscious that is at work when we are awake, but our subconscious too. It is always at work, interpreting our senses and putting things together. Sometimes it will send up an alarm, and we will feel endangered and even threatened, without knowing precisely why. The backseat driver in our brains will start screaming "Run!" "Get the hell gone!" "Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars, make like a bird and fly you idiot!"

Our conscious brain, being the wonderful chump it is, often likes to start playing the "Let's identify the threat!" game. So it goes down the list:

Aliens? No.
Bigfoot? No.
Zombies? No.
Ghosts? N...wait...how would I know? There could be one right in front of me and I wouldn't know it!

Oh sh... Run! Evil spirit! Gotta move ass! Outrun the bastard!

Yes, we are all equal parts genius and idiot, and as such; we often react to things that don't even always register properly in our brains.

Kataclismic's picture
I see it this way:

I see it this way:

If there is a heaven and a god, and I was welcomed in, I couldn't go. If I look behind me (as I walk through the gate) and the person there is told they can't enter then I will turn around and want to know how/why/when that person lost their welcome into this place and I will be locked in my own psychological hell worrying about every sad face that is turned away. Besides that I don't think 'faith' is any sort of compass for a person, I know people that have all the faith in the world for god but don't have a second of time for me, and if they will be welcomed then god did it all wrong and I want off this ride. Just pull it to a halt, should be a big red button there somewhere...

As far as 'evil', it constitutes a different thing to everyone. My wife thinks spelling encyclopedia without the diphthong is evil but it doesn't bother me. When you stop 'believing' in something that isn't there you won't create 'evidence' that it is. You'll look behind the curtain and laugh at the guy pulling all the strings (and tripping over them because he's been found out).

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Assuming that Ghosts are real

Assuming that Ghosts are real forthe moment just for the sake of argument.

Well ghosts and god are 2 different things and are not necessarily complimentary.

When did you make the connection between the action(seeing a ghost) and his relation to a god?

After some deep thought, you will come to understand that it was your religious bias that INTERPRETED the action(seeing a ghost) as part of god story.

In reality there is no fair connection to make unless the ghost said something like"I come from the christian god" or something.

So even if ghosts exist, it does not mean that god does.

Simple strait forward logic.

EDIT:
And if you can't sleep at night thinking about ghosts, I would suggest you watch a movie that will help you be more open minded then just the god FANTASY interpretation that was forced upon you.

Here is a movie that gives another(better) interpretation for ghosts, not related to the god fantasy, and it is a very nice movie:
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within - Official® Trailer 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaI7ZPA9I1c

Full movie:
(close the pop up windows, change 720p, after playing pause for 5-10 min then play to watch without buffering)
http://putlocker.is/watch-final-fantasy-the-spirits-within-online-free-p...

Nordic Fox's picture
"If there is No God, how can

"If there is No God, how can there be a spirit?"
To be blunt, I don't think there is such a thing as a spirit, a soul, a ghost, or out-of-body form of consciousness.
Simply put, if you research neurological surgery... People -must- be awake during brain surgery, because if surgeons touch/damage/cut the wrong parts of the brain during, say, a tumor removal then parts of brain function are lost. Permanently.

If we had souls, spirits, or any other external consciousness, why would this matter? It would not make sense to have a soul that is separate from our physical bodies, if physical damage can cut off our perceptions, sensations, thoughts, emotions, etc.

As far as ghosts, I have worked many nights, through many storms, calm weather, and other things... I've had to secure buildings that included old crematoriums, hospitals, and mental wards long abandoned with nothing more than a flashlight and a radio, and I have spoken with people who claim they've seen apparitions in the past. None of those things have ever shown ghosts or spirits in any way, shape or form to be factual things to me.

Dehydration, lack of sleep past a certain number of hours, pre-disposition to supernatural beliefs, etc. can lead to hallucinations, dream-like experiences, and things similar in fashion.

Not to totally shoot down ideas, but I'm a severe skeptic. And in the style of any skeptics, I do not accept an idea until I can see acceptable evidence to support it.

One of the best skeptics who shot down 'psychics' for example did so by asking them some valid questions. The psychic claimed to "see an aura" around a person's head, and could identify things about them. The skeptic asked, "If I cover my face with a mask, can you see the aura?" the psychic said "Yes". The skeptic asked "If you close your eyes, could you see my aura?" the psychic claimed "Yes."

The skeptic finally asked, "If I stood behind a wall, just barely taller than myself, could you point out where I was by my aura?" and the skeptic refused to attempt the test.

My point? What religion tells you isn't testable. And if you attempt to test it, the tests fail. There are many things people take to mean "signs of an answer", but based on coincidence alone this is at best a 50/50 stab at an answer, not a 100% surety.

I could flip a coin, and speak aloud: "If there is a god watching me, make this coin land on heads." If the coin lands on tails, obviously either the god does not exist, or is too lazy to indulge me with an experiment result. If the coin lands on heads, many would assume I'd been answered, but statistically the coin has a 50% chance of landing on heads! So really, heads proves nothing.

Now... For me, if there was a god, and he/she/it was willing to indulge me, I would ask that deity to cause my coin to land on it's edge, and remain there. Neither heads, nor tails! Even magnets could not do that, so I would guarantee without a doubt that it would mean that a deity existed and had answered me! As a teen, I performed this test, and it failed, 100% of the time.

Now, according to christians, jews, muslims.... Their god is so powerful he can make universes, set in motion millions of complex species, answer prayers, talk to people through burning bushes, get jealous at people worshipping other gods, etc.

If that -same- deity cannot influence my coin test, then surely he is NOT all-powerful, all-knowing, and more likely... not real.

"Could something in our brains make us think we have seen a dark shadow or a feeling of evil?"
Actually, yes! Anxiety can cause feelings of paranoia when around other people/in a dark place/in unfamiliar surroundings, and there are chemical/neurological reasons that the brain can trigger neurological reactions that cause us to experience things that aren't actually there.

In fact, there are brain imbalances that can even cause sight, sound, and even smell anomalies that cause people to see, hear, or smell things that either aren't there or change them entirely!

There's even "perfect sight" blindness, where people who have eyes that function perfectly cannot actually see. They can navigate around obstacles in a room, or recognize people based on their hair, clothing, or possibly just movement alone. Yet their brains cannot process the same information as it travels to the cerebellum... So though their reactions may be influenced by their sense of sight, they cannot "see".

Lastly, if we had external consciousness, blindness should not matter. People have reported "out of body" experiences during surgery, for example... And yet blind people who go through the same surgeries report similar experiences, except without any visual information. They instead report sounds, smells... And no other information. Patients in comas, similarly can remain unconscious, but recall relatives speaking of plans for wills and inheritance (and are usually quite angry when they awake).

But, you can perform a test on REM sleep to (prove?) experience how the brain can 'facsimile' surroundings in a dream-like state. You may feel like you're outside your body, but you in fact, are not.

Take a tape recorder, or digital recorder... And have it play 3+ hours after you fall asleep at night. Record a message to yourself, describing a setting, and what is happening (like a story). Let the recording play for about 15-20 minutes with details about the room you're in, or a wide valley with white flowers and people doing specific things, or specific animals... Then have an alarm wake you up precisely then.

Since you're message interrupts REM sleep, but does not wake you, you begin to interpret the audio as sensory input, and 'dream' about what you're hearing, likely what patients go through during anesthesia for surgery. Since the alarm interrupts REM sleep, however, you awake remembering all the details!

I can't tell anyone what to believe, and nobody should want anyone to tell them what to believe.... However, everyone should draw conclusions based on multiple sources, evidence or whatever can be gathered, and not simply information handed out.

I wish you luck, and hope you find truth and comfort in life!

SeanBreen's picture
In response to the OP:

In response to the OP:

Although you never specifically mentioned which religion you used to belong to, I assume you're Christian, as you capitalize the word "God" and the tone of the language in your post gives me the impression you're talking about the Christian religion.

You're asking "is it possible for people to see things and feel things and believe that those things are real, even if they are not real?" Well, yes -- that's exactly what religion is! It is believing that things for which you have absolutely no concrete empirical evidence are certain to exist. Your second question sounds like "is there any way that the brain can make people see things that aren't there?" And again, the answer is absolutely yes.

Think about this. When you were a child and you believed there were monsters under your bed, they felt real, because the fear felt real, and the idea felt plausible. I mean, if there are Gods and demons then why not monsters under your bed, too? Compound those severe fears -- the fear of hell, the fear of demons, the fear of judgement, the fear of invisible phenomena and all controlling forces that are outside your control -- with the active imagination of a child, and the fear is amplified exponentially. Such fears and feelings and beliefs leave a child feeling powerless, and in response to such a psychological onslaught a child will generally do one of two things: erupt and defy, or give up and submit.

Your mind is a very powerful thing, and it has the potential to create all sorts of delusions to suit your reality and beliefs. This is especially dangerous in children, whose right brains (the creative, emotional part of the brain) have not yet been neglected and starved by the left-brain dominant education in our societies.

It is totally possible for you, as a young man under such severe psychological stress, to have seen and heard things that didn't exist, but which fitted your beliefs. You have, in your mind, an innate sense of powerlessness, helplessness and insignificance that your parents and pastors instilled in you. By teaching you that your eternal fate was up to the arbitrary judgements of some self-contradicting creator God, your parents taught you that ultimately, everything was out of your control, that your own will was faulty, that your own feelings were false. They taught you not to trust yourself. They taught you not to think for yourself.

The things you learned in your childhood have had a profoundly damaging impact on your life, and the saddest part is now that you know it was not true, you are still left with the scars. You are still left with the hangover of so many years of being taught the things you were taught.

My advice is to see a good, nonreligious, qualified psychotherapist to explore these issues so that you can overcome them.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
personally, I wouldn't advise

personally, I wouldn't advise the OP neccearily seek professional help from a psychotherapistm, Sean. For one thing, psychotherapists are trained to do a very specific thing, and that may not be what the OP needs. For another, psychotherapy and other "mind" medicine fields can do more harm than good if you don't go to the right person or approach it at the right time in the right circumstance with the right attitude

SeanBreen's picture
I don't agree with you on

I don't agree with you on this. A good psychotherapist assesses the needs of the patient through a process of mutual exploration and discovery in a comfortable and supporting environment, with the aim of helping the patient come to a place of self-acceptance and equilibrium in regards to their thoughts, feelings, and realities.

The only reason the OP needs to undergo psychotherapy is having an inability to fix these psychological difficulties on his own, which clearly he has, since he's here asking for someone else's help.

headlongflight's picture
Thanks to everyone for

Thanks to everyone for replying. I took in everything everyone said and although some things still seem complicated to me, I know this will be a process I have to work through. This is why I am here. I feel like I have been conditioned or brainwashed and now that I am a middle aged man I feel that I must be set free to live a more peaceful calm life, as I struggle daily with the whole god concept.
Fear is probably the greatest motivator to push ones beliefs on another. I am tormented with the question, "why am I here and where did we come from?", which just adds to my dilemna. At least I am questioning things, which is a start. Thank you all!

SeanBreen's picture
You're very welcome. My best

You're very welcome. My best advice to you is to seek out fair-minded, tolerant and accepting people with whom you can build trusting, honest, open friendships. These are by far the best cure for doubt. I understand how difficult it must be, but I assure you that the fear you feel is only temporary: by exploring these issues, developing support systems, and seeing a good transaction analysis therapist or CBT practitioner who takes your philosophical issues seriously, you will be able to overcome these problems. Also know that you're not alone. Many of us have been through similar dilemmas, and although they may feel unbearable at present, if you give yourself time and care, these feelings will pass.

I wrote this essay on purpose without God, and it seems relevant to your doubts. So perhaps it might help you find the motivation you need to start building your new life with your own purpose.

https://filthyliketherest.wordpress.com/2015/10/09/is-there-any-purpose-...

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