Open minded on Athiesm

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Gustavo Garza's picture
Open minded on Athiesm

So I hear a lot of talk from atheists. You all use the Bible as a proof that god doesn’t exist, when in reality your just capatilizing on human error to make it seem. Like GOD is contradicting himself therefore he is not real. I’m curious on why you are so sure that a creator is not real. Because honestly it’s silly but I will not argue against fact and am open minded to it

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CyberLN's picture
You are obviously not open

You are obviously not open-minded about your god.

Gustavo Garza's picture
Just like an atheist... you

Just like an atheist... you think your opinion is fact...smh

CyberLN's picture
Tavoh, you wrote, “Because

Tavoh, you wrote, “Because honestly it’s silly but I will not argue against fact and am open minded to it.”

You’ve already formed the opinion that it is silly, ergo, you are no longer open-minded. How is it that you cannot extrapolate that from your contradictory sentence?

Cognostic's picture
@ You all use the Bible as a

@ You all use the Bible as a proof that god doesn’t exist.

So you want to blame us for not believing because your god is a shit writer? Really? Okay, lets ignore the bible completely, What else do you have for evidence?

@ why you are so sure that a creator is not real.

You are confused. Atheists don't believe in god or gods. Atheism is not concerned with proving a god does not exist. What you are doing is called "SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF." You are trying to make an "ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE: Atheists can not prove god is not real so it must be real. There does not seem to be any other answer."

You are the one asserting that a god is real. You have the burden of proof. If the bible can be shown to disprove god as well as prove god then it is not a reliable source of information about God. The next question is this, "What else have you got?" Atheists don't believe in your magical flying sky daddy for no other reason than you have not yet convinced us. It's just that simple. Where is your evidence"

Sheldon's picture
" You all use the Bible as a

" You all use the Bible as a proof that god doesn’t exist, "

Why don't theists grasp how absurdly stupid it is to use phrases that imply they know what every atheist thinks? Or for that matter see how absurd stupid it is to claim atheists think the bible "proves" anything. I don't believe any deity exists because no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for the claim. The bible is mostly archaic superstitious nonsense, it proves nothing at all, but then no book can prove it's own claims, that's axiomatic.

"when in reality your just capatilizing on human error to make it seem. Like GOD is contradicting himself therefore he is not real."

How can a nonexistent thing contradict itself? The sentence is as poorly thought out as it is punctuated, and spelled. It's theists who claim the bible is the word of god, not atheist, atheists don't believe a deity exists, so by inference the bible would have to be entirely human in origin, and of course this would explain why it contains errors and contradictions that reflect not only human fallibility in reasoning and knowledge, but that exactly match the ignorance, superstition, prejudices and bigotries of the epoch and cultures from which it originated. Paradoxically I find it absurd to claim that an omniscient omnipotent deity would communicate erroneous nonsense, and cryptic allegory, but again that is a theistic claim, not an atheistic one.

" I’m curious on why you are so sure that a creator is not real. "

I'm curious as to how on earth you think you know how sure I am about anything? Since you're here and making the usual assumptions about atheism and atheists I can tell you again that I don't believe any deities exist as no one has demonstrated any objective evidence for the claim.

"Because honestly it’s silly but I will not argue against fact and am open minded to it"

Why would anyone argue against a fact? Open minded just means you treat claims and ideas without bias, so open minded is the very antithesis of faith based belief. I am open minded, and I am an atheist, and when claims are unfalsifiable and epistemology demands it I am agnostic about them.

Gustavo Garza's picture
Ok bud, i never said I like

Ok bud, i never said I like the Bible. Humans have taken an idea and put details into it. Littered it with rules and regulations to control a population that back then didn’t know any better. The Bible is bullshit. But GOD is not. Look at the earth, the stars the way everything is put into perfect harmony of course there is a creator. But obviously not one that lives in the clouds. It’s funny, once somebody takes away the Bible and still says that gods exist, atheist squirm because they haven’t prepared a bull**** argument good enough to defend themselves against it

David Killens's picture
You are making the assertion

You are making the assertion that a god exists. Thus the burden of proof falls on you to prove your claim.

And be very careful challenging our arguments, they may overwhelm you.

First argument, you state a god exists, I say, prove it.

Let's dance.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
That's not a dance.

That's not a dance. Presumably you want him to build his sandcastle first, because you find it easier to knock them down than to build your own, and have him knock it down. If you really wanted to dance, you would likewise state your own position.

David Killens's picture
My position is that I lack a

My position is that I lack a belief in a god.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
What you lack does not define

What you lack does not define your position. If you ask me what team I'm on, but all I respond with is "not the Yankees," I've failed to answer your question. So, what are your beliefs about such gods? Clearly you have some, otherwise why warn Tavoh to be careful about challenging your arguments?

So what exactly is your position?

David Killens's picture
I do not believe in any god(s

I do not believe in any god(s). Thus I can not have an opinion on something I believe does not exist.

What is your position on Gazorpazorp?

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
"Thus I can not have an

"Thus I can not have an opinion on something I believe does not exist."

Then that's your position, you believe they don't exist. Rather simple.

David Killens's picture
ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

Just like unicorns, mermaids, fairies,leprechauns and yeti. None have met any burden of proof for their existence, I can not believe in any of them.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
The difference is subtle but

The difference is subtle but straightforward. I can't have a position about Gazorpazorps, because I do not know what it is. I'm uninformed, and cannot form beliefs about it. In contrast, I do know what fairies and leprechauns are, and can form beliefs about them: that they are merely the construct of story-telling. The issue of gods and deities, should be more like mermaids for you, than a Gazorpazorps. You know enough to form an opinion on it. That opinion seems to be that you believe they don't exist.

Its worth noting that I'm also convinced Santa isn't real, not on his absence of evidence, but on the presence of information about him. He is very clearly fictional to me. I'm not expecting evidence to ever emerge, and hopefully neither are you. In contrast, on another post it seemed that some people think its possible that Mars had life, despite there being no direct "proof or even confirmation of life on Mars." Many people do think that a more significant discovery is in the horizon, and thus why people are searching in the first place..

So, supposing we agree that there is an utter absence of evidence for gods, etc. You mainly have two options: either you are expecting evidence to someday emerge, or you are convinced evidence will never emerge.

Sheldon's picture
"That opinion seems to be

"That opinion seems to be that you believe they don't exist."

No, and he's patiently told you this several times, so what you hope to gain by lying and misrepresenting his position only you can know.

"Its worth noting that I'm also convinced Santa isn't real, "

What if I defined Santa as an entity that was transcendent, eternal, omniscient and omnipotent, that can only be detected through prayer, and that everything you think you know about Santa is wrong because you're not interpreting it correctly as it is allegorical metaphor?

Now your "belief" that Santa doesn't exist requires you to prove it right?

Off you go....

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
How am I misinterpreting him,

How am I misinterpreting him, when he's the one that specifically said he believes they don't exist?

"What if I defined Santa as..." If you defined my grandmother as having testicles, she would be my grandfather. So, if everything I think I know about Santa is wrong, then obviously the logical thing to do would be to reconsider my position.

"Now your "belief" that Santa doesn't exist requires you to prove it right?"

Certainly, I don't hold positions that I'm not able to defend. You can look at the fictional origins of Santa Claus, for example, here's the poem that apparently gave Santa Claus reindeer and a sleigh. Such literary works, have unequivocally been forwarded by its authors as fiction and fantasy: https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/html/1807/4350/poem1485.html

David Killens's picture
@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

"So, supposing we agree that there is an utter absence of evidence for gods, etc. You mainly have two options: either you are expecting evidence to someday emerge, or you are convinced evidence will never emerge."

NO

I will not be pigeonholed into just two options when I have others available. Go try your false dilemma on someone else.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
That's fine. Evidence

That's fine. Evidence functions like a pregnancy here, either you are expecting or not expecting a child. I can't think of what other options you have available, short of utter indifference; I have a suspicion you can't either.

Edit: I just came across a great quote that summarizes what I'm saying: "The scientist is unlikely to discover anything unless s/he believes that there is something to discover" (Hearnshaw, 1979). Do you believe there is something to discover concerning the God question? Your challenge Tavoh only makes sense if your answer is no, that you believe we've reached a conclusion to the matter, and have reasons for it which can be attacked or defended. In contrast, to state your position as a lack of belief which is awaiting proof, means you must take the role of a student, and cannot logically challenge anyone on the matter.

Reference: Hearnshaw, L. S.(1979). Cyril Burt: Psychologist. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press

Sheldon's picture
What are your beliefs about

What are your beliefs about invisible unicorns? What's your position on invisible unicorns?

Do behave John, the lack of a belief is not a belief.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
That if they exist I would

That if they exist I would want a rainbow colored one.

Sheldon's picture
Dishonest evasion, just so

Dishonest evasion, just so you have an example next time you scoff at the accusation your posts are often dishonest.

What proof have you to support your belief that invisible unicorns don't exist? These are your rules John, that disbelief is a belief that requires evidence...off you go...

mickron88's picture
stop it shelly..you slap him

stop it shelly..you slap him too hard...

can't you he's just supporting his co-creationist side?
be gentle next time shelly...

Sheldon's picture
Nonsense John, are you still

Nonsense John, are you still going to bang this tired old tambourine of yours as if philosophical epistemology doesn't exist and disagree with your absurd attempts to claim those disbelieving a claim don't have or even share a burden of proof.

Sheldon's picture
" i never said I like the

" i never said I like the Bible."

Straw man, since I never claimed you did, unlike you I can't profess to know what a person believes until or unless they tell me. However it is axiomatic that the christianity has traditionally claimed the bible is the inerrant message of an omniscient deity. Hence it's contradictory nature is not a problem for an atheists as they don't believe this.

"Humans have taken an idea and put details into it. Littered it with rules and regulations to control a population that back then didn’t know any better. "

I'm not sure what your point is here, but again this is precisely what one would expect of the bible were entirely human in origin, and unless you can demonstrate any objective evidence that isn't entirely human in origin I don't see why anyone can rationally claim otherwise.

"The Bible is bullshit. But GOD is not"

The bible is fallible and man made, your claim about a deity is dismissed in the same fashion it is made, as Hitchens's razor applies.

" Look at the earth, the stars the way everything is put into perfect harmony of course there is a creator."

That's just petitio principii , or begging the question, logically fallacious claims can not rationally be asserted as true. Again you also make a bare claim without objective evidence.

"But obviously not one that lives in the clouds."

"It’s funny, once somebody takes away the Bible and still says that gods exist, atheist squirm because they haven’t prepared a bull**** argument good enough to defend themselves against it"

Can't say I've ever noticed this, but theists tend to have some bizarre misconceptions about atheism and atheists, especially in the US. Atheism doesn't require an argument, as the burden of proof is always with the person making the claim, but again you are simply asserting subjective opinion, no objective evidence has been offered to support your claim. If the bible is as you claim BS, then what objective evidence can you demonstrate for your belief that any deity exists?

Not one you can demonstrate any objective evidence for, in the clouds or anywhere else.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: OP

Re: OP

Before I read any other comments, there is something you said in the OP that lept out at me as if it were written in glowing neon lights. You said, "...when in reality your just capatilizing on human error to make it seem. Like GOD is contradicting himself..." The interesting part to me is that I doubt you even realize what you said and what it implies. However, I will try to explain as simply as I can...

According to most any Christian, the bible is THE perfect word of god. It was divinely inspired by god himself and supposedly contains zero errors in its teachings. (At least that is how I was taught while growing up.) Therefore, even though the bible was written by Man, those who did the writing were supposedly divinely guided by the All-knowing, All-powerful, and totally PERFECT god that NEVER makes any errors. Am I correct so far?... Cool...

By your own statement, however, you just admitted to us that your bible is NOT perfect, yet you blame "human error" for those imperfections. What is even funnier is that you then go on to criticize atheists for pointing out all the "human errors" in your precious book that you claim is the perfect word of an omniscient god, even though it is full of contradictions.

So, either this All-knowing and All-powerfull god really, really sucked at dictating what he wanted the guys to write in the bible... OR, the guys doing the writing decided they knew better than god and ignored his "divine inspiration" and did a bit of freelacning. Either way, the bible is not a very impressive example of "divine perfection", and you have actually stated as much. Thanks. *Big Grin*

Gustavo Garza's picture
Listen here buddy ol pal, I

Listen here buddy ol pal, I hate the Bible, I hate religion. Don’t put words in my mouth, where did I say that I hold it so “precious” to me? You all pretend like the Bible invented god, I know your not that dumb. It’d be too much. And you gotta slow down bud. I never claimed that god is all prefect, knowin powerful etc. I do know that god must be infinitely knowledgeable so pretending that I know his personality like your accusing me of doing is probably the most ignorant thing somebody could do. I Know that I know nothing. And I know that you know nothing. But at the same time common sense must come into play. When was the last time you saw something come from nothing? Much less an entire universe that according to mathamtic probability should not exist. Think about it, you are a 3 dimensional being with a human mind. Of course you can’t understand god. You can’t see him? No shit. I created the second dimension I could look down on them for eternity, literally my face in the glass and infinite time will pass and they will never see me. And I would laugh at what they say. “Well I can’t see him so he must not be real”
As in all reality stays within their dimension. Listen to yourself.

David Killens's picture
I've never seen something

I've never seen something come from nothing, although I am aware that quantum physics does deal with strange things popping in and out of existence.

You really need to read up on the current scientific concept of "the big bang", as some laymen call it. In fact, it is not considered a big bang, but rather a rapid expansion. That rapid expansion came from a singularity. What came before the singularity physicists are working hard understanding. But no one is claiming it came from "nothing". That claim is coming from people like you, ignorant of the current state of physics, twisting very old statements to suit your agenda.

The odds and mathematical probabilities are just what they are, long shots. But just examine the odds you would be here exchanging posts in this forum. And let us just go back to the day your parents met each other. The odds they met, the odds, they continued their romance, the odds that just one in five billion sperm won the race to become you, the odds that I sat on the toilet longer than I should have, and instead decided to walk my dog instead of logging onto the internet. If you begin to calculate the odds you get a huge number going against the odds we meet. So just because the odds are fantastic, that is not sufficient to discard that line of thought.

If a three dimensional entity acted on a two dimensional entity, the entity the living in two dimensions will still be aware of something happening. This god you claim, that exists in another dimension, can still be identified and studied. This god did act on our planet, you claim it created/managed it. If this god did create our dimension, then it had to cross between the dimensions, thus disproving that one cannot interact between dimensions.

Tin-Man's picture
@Tavoh

@Tavoh

Hey there ol' buddy, ol' chum, ol' pal o' mine! Thank you for your response and your clarification on your regards for the bible. However, in all fairness, your OP did not really make your position very clear. Nevertheless, I do apologize for my assumption. I will even go a small step further and say I am actually rather pleased you are such a bible skeptic and supposedly recognize it for the elaborate work of fiction that it is. Kudos to you on that. So, that being said...

You stated, "You all (meaning "atheists", I'm guessing.) pretend like the Bible invented god,..." Well, first of all, MAN invented god long before the bible ever existed. Secondly, you are assuming (wrongly) that all atheists think alike.

Next, you say, "I never claimed that god is all prefect, knowin powerful etc." Maybe so, but I can assure you a vast majority of Christians believe absolutely that god is Omniscient, Omnipotent, All-benevolent. At least that is how I was raised, anyway. But whenever Christians are confronted with the illogic and incongruity of such an entity, it is amazing all the ducking and dodging and slipping and sliding they can conjure in an effort to maintain their delusion. The mental gymnastics is astounding. *chuckle*

Finally, you ask, "When was the last time you saw something come from nothing?" To be perfectly honest, aside from it being an abstract and "hypothetical" concept, I know absolutely nothing about nothing. I have no idea what nothing is. So if you are using nothing to try to prove your god exists, then I'm afraid you have nothing with which to argue. I'm afraid there is nothing more I can say about nothing. Which I suppose begs the question, "Does nothing really matter?"

Sapporo's picture
@Tavoh

@Tavoh
It is impossible for something to come from nothing. You imply that nature is not eternal.

Sheldon's picture
"It is impossible for

"It is impossible for something to come from nothing. You imply that nature is not eternal."

Indeed, and I should like to see him evidence the claim that something can't come from nothing, how exactly did he test this? Did he manage to secure "nothing" in a lab so he could test it? Theists use this misnomer to apply a scientific fact that applies in a temporal condition to a non temporal one as if they haven't noticed the contradiction, or the fact they are about to break this new rule they have created, using special pleading for a deity as if the same rules don't apply to their deity as to a universe, how very convenient and all with no evidence and no explanatory powers whatsoever, propped up with a string of logical fallacies.

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