Origins and Science
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@ Sheldon
Bwaaaaaaa... haaaaaaaa... haaaaaaa... Good one... Bwaaaaaaa... haaaaaaaa... haaaaaaa...
***tree slowly stumbling due to laughing so hard back into forest***
rmfr
If a tree laughs in the forest and no one is around, does it smell like Tin Man's dirty socks?
@Cog Re: "If a tree laughs in the forest and no one is around, does it smell like Tin Man's dirty socks?"
Only if the tree farts while laughing.
I was just making sure. For a moment I thought it was me.
@luke
I'm a little surprised you haven't tried to say god created life.
Let's be fair though, it has been a pleasure to have been front and centre, to experience theistic thinking, in all it's glory!
Scientific miracles, earth being an isolated system, morality being built in....
I feel truly privileged!
We need David Attenborough to narrate their postings, "And here approaches the lesser spotted fuckwit, in all it's splendour! Watch as it blindly steps into the rapids and over the waterfall, like an absolute twat!"
**Note** (Moved from middle of thread to here for better viewing pleasure.)
Re: Luke - "...yes I do, as do I believe is the human body, and the cell,"
Huh?... The Earth is a closed system? The human body is a closed system??? A cell is a closed system?... Uhhhh.... Wow... *frownie face*... Guess my junior high school science teacher lied to me all those years ago. Damn... *puzzled look on face*... So, wait... Where does all that energy from the sun go now? And all that material from meteors and such? Did somebody build a giant shield around the Earth or something? Oh, and what happens to all that food I eat and the fluids I drink? And what are those tiny drops of fluid that form on my exterior when I get hot? And if my body truly is a closed system, then I REALLY want to know what that brown mushy stinky stuff is that comes out of my ass a couple of times each day... *worried look*... Am I defective?... Somebody?... Anybody?... Please help... Getting scared...
As a tin man, you should be scared. Very scared.
I do not wish to alarm you, but you should not have brown mush stinky stuff coming out of your metal ass a couple of times every day.
If it was rust colored I would also be scared for you, you well know what happens when you rust out. Some girl with red shoes comes along with a literal straw man lacking a brain (but can talk!) And rudely interrupts your nice nap and takes you on a long dangerous walk with flying monkeys and stuff, and eventually to a wizard that is really just a man behind a curtain making ridiculous demands when apparently he has hearts lying around to give at a moments notice!
@Logic
Well, gee. Thanks. So much for my being able to go to sleep tonight... *biting fingernails nervously*... I have GOT to remember to make an appointment with my mechanic tomorrow... *writing note on calendar*...
@Tin-Man
Let's hope you don't require another WD40 suppository again!
@Random Re: "Let's hope you don't require another WD40 suppository again!"
Well, if I do, it is going to be at the local self-serve car wash this time. NO WAY I want to have to clean my bathroom like what happened with that last incident.... *shaking head resolutely*...
Edit to add: Hmmm... Maybe I should start saving plenty of quarters...
This is, not to put too fine a point on it, garbage.
What part of "thousands of chemical reactions take place spontaneously whilst obeying the second law of thermodynamics" did you fail to learn in basic chemistry classes?
No you didn't, you merely blindly asserted this. And in the process, demonstrated that you know fuck all about how the second law of thermodynamics actually operates. Time for this:
Creationist Canards About The Laws Of Thermodyamics, Versus The Actual Science
The individual responsible for our current understanding of the laws of thermodynamics, was one Rudolf Clausius. When Clausius formulated his relations, he explicitly stated that the Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to different classes of system, but in different ways. He listed the three classes of system as follows:
[1] Isolated systems are systems that engage in no exchange of matter or energy with their surroundings. Such systems are therefore reliant upon the internal energy that they already possess. However, isolated systems constitute an idealisation that is almost never achieved in practice, and are mostly useful as a starting point for developing thermodynamic theory prior to extending it to the other classes of system.
[2] Closed systems are systems that engage in exchange of energy with the surroundings, but no exchange of matter. A good example of a closed system would be a solar panel, which does not exchange matter with its surroundings, but which, when illuminated, is a net recipient of energy in the form of visible light, which it then converts to electricity, which we can use.
[3] Open systems are systems that engage in exchange of both energy and matter with the surroundings. Living organisms plainly fall into this latter category.
When Rudolf Clausius erected his original statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, he stated it thus:
The trouble with the 2LT is that it applies to all of these systems, but the exact manner in which it applies differs between the three classes of system. Clausius' original statement about the application of the 2LT to an isolated system does not apply to the other classes of system in anything like the same manner. Trouble is, creationists alight upon the statement about entropy increasing, which was originally erected by Clausius to describe isolated systems, and think that the formulation Clausius erected to apply to isolated systems applies to all systems in the same manner, when Clausius himself plainly stated that it doesn't.
In a non isolated system, if there is an energy input, that energy input can be harnessed to perform useful work, such as locally decreasing the entropy of entities within the system in exchange for a greater increase in entropy beyond those systems. As long as there exists inhomogeneity within the universe, i.e., there exist regions of differing conditions with respect to material content, energy flux, etc., any net recipient of energy from an outside energy source can harness that energy to perform useful work, including work that results in a temporary local decrease of entropy. The Earth constitutes such a system, because it is engaging in both matter and energy transfer with the surroundings, and is in fact a large net recipient of energy from the surroundings. See that yellow thing in the sky? It's called The Sun. It's a vast nuclear fusion reactor 866,000 miles across that is irradiating the Earth with massive amounts of energy as I type this. Energy that can be harnessed to perform useful work such as constructing living organisms.
Incidentally, as a tangential diversion, the classical formulation has again required revision to take account of more recent developments with respect to observed phenomena, which is why we now have a scientific discipline called Quantum Thermodynamics ... a discipline that was contributed to by, among others, Stephen Hawking, when he published his landmark paper on the radiative nature of black holes that brings them into equilibrium with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I don't recall him ruling out evolution as a result of this.
Another common fallacy is the wholly non-rigorous association of entropy with "disorder", however this is defined. This has been known to be non-rigorous by physicists for decades, because there exist numerous documented instances of systems whose entropy increases when they spontaneously self-assemble into ordered structures as a result of the effect of electrostatic forces. Lipid bilayers are an important example of this, which are found throughout the biosphere.
The following scientific paper is apposite here:
Gentle Force Of Entropy Bridges Disciplines by David Kestenbaum, Science, 279: 1849 (20th March 1998)
Phospholipids being an excellent example thereof. In fact, any chemical system in which there exists the capacity for electrostatic forces to apply to either aggregating or reacting molecules can exhibit this phenomenon. Which is why scientists have long since abandoned the notion that "entropy" equals "disorder", which requires a thorough statistical mechanical treatment in terms of microstates in any case.
This is applied to the physics and physical chemistry of lipid bilayers in the following paper:
Electrostatic Repulsion Of Positively Charged Vesicles And Negatively Charged Objects by
Helim Aranda-Espinoza, Yi Chen, Nily Dan, T. C. Lubensky, Philip Nelson, Laurence Ramos and D. A. Weitz, Science, 285: 394-397 (16th July 1999)
in which the authors calculated that the entropy of the lipid bilayer system increased when it arranged itself spontaneously into an ordered structure in accordance with the laws of electrostatics.
Entropy, as rigorously defined, has units of Joules per Kelvin, and is therefore a function of energy versus thermodynamic temperature. The simple fact of the matter is that if the thermodynamic temperature increases, then the total entropy of a given system decreases if no additional energy was input into the system in order to provide the increase in thermodynamic temperature. Star formation is an excellent example of this, because the thermodynamic temperature at the core of a gas cloud increases as the cloud coalesces under gravity. All that is required to increase the core temperature to the point where nuclear fusion is initiated is sufficient mass. No external energy is added to the system. Consequently, the entropy at the core decreases due to the influence of gravity driving up the thermodynamic temperature. Yet the highly compressed gas in the core is hardly "ordered".
More to the point, there are scientific papers in existence establishing that evolution is perfectly consistent with the 2LT. Two important papers being:
Entropy And Evolution by Daniel F. Styer, American Journal of Physics, 78(11): 1031-1033 (November 2008) DOI: 10.1119/1.2973046
Natural Selection As A Physical Principle by Alfred J. Lotka, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 8: 151-154 (1922) [full paper downloadable from here]
Evolution Of Biological Complexity by Christoph Adami, Charles Ofria and Travis C. Collier, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 97(9): 4463-4468 (25th April 2000) [Full paper downloadable from here]
Order From Disorder: The Thermodynamics Of Complexity In Biology by Eric D. Schneider and James J. Kay, in Michael P. Murphy, Luke A.J. O'Neill (ed), What is Life: The Next Fifty Years. Reflections on the Future of Biology, Cambridge University Press, pp. 161-172 [Full paper downloadable from here]
Natural Selection For Least Action by Ville R. I. Kaila and Arto Annila, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Part A, 464: 3055-3070 (22nd july 2008) [Full paper downloadable from here]
Evolution And The Second Law Of Thermodynamics by Emory F. Bunn, arXiv.org, 0903.4603v1 (26th March 2009) [Download full paper from here]
Let's take a look at some of these, shall we?
First of all, we have this:
So, even as far back as 1922, scientists were arguing that evolution is not in violation of the Second law of Thermodynamics. Interesting revelation, yes?
Lotka continues with this:
Now this, as I've jsut stated, was written as far back as 1922, which means that scientists have been aware that thermodynamic laws and evolution are not in conflict for eighty-seven years.
Moving on, let's look at the more recent papers. Let's look first at the abstract of the Adami et al paper:
Oh look. A point I've been arguing for a long time here, namely that a rigorous definition of complexity is needed in order to be able to make precise categorical statements about complexity. I also note with interest that the authors of this paper perform detailed experiments via simulation in order to establish the fact that complexity can arise from simple systems (the behaviour of the Verhust Equation, to cite one example, frequently establishes this, and indeed, the investigation of such systems as the Verhulst Equation and similar dynamical systems is now the subject of its own branch of applied mathematics).
The authors open their paper thus:
Moving on, the authors directly address a favourite canard of creationists (though they do not state explicitly that they are doing this), namely that information somehow constitutes a "non-physical" entity. Here's what the authors have to say on this subject:
Nice. In brief, the authors clearly state that information requires a physical substrate to reside upon, and a mechanism for the residence of that information upon the requisite physical substrate, in such a manner that said information constitutes a mapping from the arrangement of the physical substrate upon which it resides, to whatever other physical system is being represented by that mapping. I remember one creationist claiming that because the mass of a floppy disc doesn't change when one writes data to it, this somehow "proves" that information is not a physical entity: apparently said creationist didn't pay attention in the requisite basic physics classes, or else he would have learned that the information stored on a floppy disc is stored by materially altering the physical state of the medium, courtesy of inducing changes in the magnetic orientation of the ferric oxide particles in the disc medium. In other words, a physical process was required to generate that information and store it on the disc. I am indebted to the above authors for casting this basic principle in the appropriate (and succinct) general form.
The authors move on with this:
Quite a substantial mathematical background, I think everyone will agree. I'll let everyone have fun reading the rest of the details off-post, as they are substantial, and further elaboration here will not be necessary in the light of my providing a link to the full paper.
Moving on to the Kaila and Annila paper, here's the abstract:
Ah, this dovetails nicely with Thomas D. Schneider's presentation of a form of the Second Law of Thermodynamics applicable to biological systems that I've covered in past posts. This can be read in more detail here. Note that Thomas D. Schneider is not connected with Eric D. Schneider whose paper is cited above.
Here's how Kaila and Annila introduce their work:
I advise readers to exercise some caution before diving into this paper in full, as it involves extensive mathematics from the calculus of variations, and a good level of familiarity with Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics is a pre-requisite for understanding the paper in full.
In the meantime, let's take a look at the Schneider & Kay paper. Here's their introduction:
Finally, I'll wind up by introducing Emory F. Bunn's paper, which is a particular killer for creationist canards, because it involves direct mathematical derivation of the thermodynamic relationships involved in evolutionary processes, and a direct quantitative analysis demonstrating that evolution is perfectly consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Here's the abstract:
Here's the opening gambit:
Once again, I'll let you all have fun reading the paper in full. :)
In the meantime, with respect to chemical reactions, one of the first major lessons chemistry students learn, is that the nature of a chemical reaction is determined in large part by a quantity called enthalpy, which in an elementary treatment, can be defined as follows:
ΔH = (energy required to break chemical bonds in the reactants) - (energy released when bonds are formed in the products)
Let that first energy term be denoted by E(b) (for breaking bonds), and the second energy term by E(f) (for forming new bonds). Thus,
ΔH = E(b) - E(f)
Enthalpy is therefore a measure of the energy consumption of a chemical reaction.
If E(b) > E(f), then the enthalpy is positive, and the reaction consumes energy, which must be supplied by an external source thereof. However, if E(b) < E(f), then the enthalpy is negative, which means that the reaction is liberating energy into the surroundings, frequently in the form of heat. Thousands of chemical reactions with negative enthalpies are known and documented in the literature. Indeed, a good many of the organic reactions that are implicated in the origin of life, are themselves negative-enthalpy reactions. Therefore the energy conditions are such that the reactions in question are driven forward and occur spontaneously, the moment the reactants come into contact with each other. No fucking magic needed.
Indeed, scientific papers exist documenting not only the fact that molecules of interest in origin of life research are found in interstellar space via spectroscopic analysis of dust and gas clouds, but that experiments have been performed in the laboratory, replicating the conditions in those clouds, and demonstrating that the synthesis pathways work.
So if you think magic is needed to produce the requisite organic molecules, then you need to re-take your basic chemistry classes. That's before we factor catalysis into the equation, which shifts the enthalpy balance for numerous reactions of interest.
Guess what? I've already covered this in detail here.
What part of "energy exchanges take place all the time without intelligent direction" do you not understand? Such as that big yellow thing you see in the sky sometimes? Not to mention all those chemical reactions whose enthalpies are negative? Plus, in the case of many positive enthalpy reactions, modest heating is all that is needed to drive them in the requisite direction. That big yellow thing is there to embarrass you again.
Oh, and since you're peddling creationist canards about "information", I've already addressed those in a previous post.
You keep peddling this blind assertion. Read the above papers and weep.
I think that covers all of those bases. Isn't a proper scientific education wonderful?
@Calilasseia
From past experiences; I'm guessing the caliber of response you will receive (if any) will be along the lines of: nuh-uh.
God Damn, Cali:
https://youtu.be/V83JR2IoI8k
I was going to say a few words about the process of DNA to mRNA to ribosomes to proteins, etc. The point being the only thing intelligent about DNA is that we humans have discerned the genetic code, figured out what amino acid each triplet pair encodes for - and are on the brink of understanding protein folding (with the help of AI like “Alpha Zero” - Alpha Zero recently trained for about a day, I think, in a protein folding prediction event, and took first place. This is also the software/hardware that trained in chess for 48 hours, I think, and became the strongest chess entity on the planet.)
I think we're done folks, as lukew0480 has just claimed the earth and the human body are enclosed systems that no thermal energy can enter from outside.
Fnarrr...I wonder if he gets all confused on a sunny day as to why he's getting hotter? Hell, maybe he thinks the sun is inside the earth's atmosphere, I mean creatards are pretty dumb?
"How does photosynthesis work?"
"Magicccccccc!!!!!" *clapping hands*
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