Thanks Ohio Players...
Que guitar and drums...
Rollercoaster of oxytocin secretion (say what?)
Rollercoaster (yeah) ooh ooh, ooh, ooh
Rollercoaster (oh, baby, you know what I'm talkin' about), of oxytocin secretion
Rollercoaster, ooh ooh, ooh, ooh
Rollercoaster of oxytocin secretion (oxytocin secretion, child)
Rollercoaster (lovin' you is really wild) ooh ooh, ooh, ooh
Rollercoaster of oxytocin secretion( oh, it's just a oxytocin secretion rollercoaster)
Rollercoaster, ooh ooh, ooh, ooh (step right up and get your tickets)
Ok, Love has been demonstrably physically evidenced, measured and recorded to exist in reality, as only a function of our brains as a hypothalumus response and certain neuropeptide reaction/secretion from the posterior pituitary. Well evidenced as existence within a functioning brain, but not evidenced otherwise.
Please help me understand why the deluded, and in particular people that fail miserably at reason, who follow abrahamic delusions, think that love transcends the brain...I mean WTF.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBkVV9xxCHE - ppl that know what disco/funk is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n6D8lB0A9w - ppl that like newer age funk.
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Along that same line... love is mostly identified by feeling (the well sung song by soG) - I value actions, not words. And likewise I express actions (words are awesome and “tell” me, but actions “show” me).
I don’t get it either. And the relationship is almost “stalker” like, but worse, cause most stalkers have relationships with people that don’t know them - but the person exists.
@doG
"{Please help me understand why the deluded, and in particular people that fail miserably at reason, who follow abrahamic delusions, think that love transcends the brain...I mean WTF."
Do you really want to know, or was that a rhetorical question?
I'll take it on face value;
Religious faith is about belief, and has little if anything to do with reason or facts
For most believers on the planet, religion is purely an accident of birth. As is evidenced by the relatively low number of atheists, most people never seriously question their beliefs
Plus, religious beliefs are absorbed, uncritically , before the age of reason. As such they become exceedingly hard to remove.
It is also my opinion that all major human behaviour meets some significant human needs. The needs met by fervent religious beliefs may include; . : Confronting the fear of death; all mammals fear death. religion can impart a sense of belonging and of community . This can still be a matter of life or death in some countries. Perhaps most important, religion can provide the illusions of meaning and purpose to life and of control over one's life . EG propitiating gods by sacrifice or ritual .Catholics remain very big on ritual, such as the mass, confession and the formulaic recitation of prayers such as in the rosary.
Thought for today' "Religion; Mankind's attempt to communicate with the weather ' (Graffito, Cambridge, England, 2000)
Why does it matter to you what others believe, as long as they stay out of your face? I include laws based on the superstitions of others which may effect you. EG Pro life morons really get up my nose. THAT belief is based on unfounded superstition not on science. .
@cranky
Well, I agree pretty much with your general assessment, as those fundamentals are obvious to me as well.
I do however believe that the continued failure in reason, displayed more so by abrahamic religious followers, where inability to differentiate reality leads to continued support of delusional actions, is a functional mental illness. DSM also meets the duration criteria for chronicity as well. Its these interactions with society that get in my face.
I do apologize for not being more concise in my query. I am really asking what links are there to love in particular, in doctrinal text or belief, that would not survive scrutiny with reality or fact, or would trigger such a denial response? Or, what your thoughts are, along that vein.
@doG
" I am really asking what links are there to love in particular, in doctrinal text or belief, that would not survive scrutiny with reality or fact, or would trigger such a denial response? Or, what your thoughts are, along that vein."
My journey began by rejecting some the more absurd beliefs of the Catholic church For most, there is actually a no scriptural base.
Eg ;The virgin birth, the trinity, the infallibility of the pope, purgatory, pretty much all of the sacraments , which the church invented. that doesn't include marriage , which was around fora very long time before the church usurped it.
it took me 20 years before I realised that I simply no longer believed in gods . Once one reaches that point, it's pretty simple to simply reject all so-called revealed scripture. My position today that the Torah is the mythology of Jews.The new testament is the mythology of Christianity.
For specifics, do some Googling . Perhaps the simplest contradictions are to found in the very different accounts of the resurrection.
"Jesus’ First Resurrection Appearance
The resurrection of someone dead is an important event, but the Gospels don’t seem to know where and when Jesus first appeared.
Mark 16:14-15 - Jesus appears to Mary Magdalena, but it’s not clear where (in older endings of Mark, he didn’t appear at all)
Matthew 28:8-9 - Jesus first appears near his tomb
Luke 24:13-15 - Jesus first appears near Emmaus, several miles from Jerusalem
John 20:13-14 - Jesus first appears at his tomb "
"Who Sees Jesus First?
Mark - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena then later to “the eleven”
Matthew - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then to the other Mary, and finally to ”the eleven”
Luke - Jesus appears first to “two,” then to Simon, then to “the eleven”
John - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas"
https://www.learnreligions.com/jesus-resurrection-and-ascension-contradi...
The above is start. The link gives a lot more information.
I also suggest read some of Bart Ehrman's books. Especially 'Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus
PLUS have look at some of John Spong's videos on Youtube
FINALLY:
The New Testament records Jesus being asked what is the greatest commandment . He responds that the first, to love god is the greatest . That second only to that is the commandment to love your neighbour as yourself .
Jesus is then asked who is my neighbour? He responds by telling the parable of the good Samaritan . The message is clear; every man is my neighbour,.
That does not withstand scrutiny because we don't even know if Jesus even existed. We most certainly have no way of knowing what he said or did.
Sorry I was unable to be more precise.
@cranky
"https://www.learnreligions.com/jesus-resurrection-and-ascension-contradi...
The above is start. The link gives a lot more information.
I also suggest read some of Bart Ehrman's books. Especially 'Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus
PLUS have look at some of John Spong's videos on Youtube
FINALLY:
The New Testament records Jesus being asked what is the greatest commandment . He responds that the first, to love god is the greatest . That second only to that is the commandment to love your neighbour as yourself .
Jesus is then asked who is my neighbour? He responds by telling the parable of the good Samaritan . The message is clear; every man is my neighbour,.
That does not withstand scrutiny because we don't even know if Jesus even existed. We most certainly have no way of knowing what he said or did."
Good links crank, thank you...and excellent thoughts on Cheesus. Really. That bond is exactly what I was looking for...and in no way an easy bond to break...especially when reinforced by loving parents/believers during indoctrination years prior to the child's age of reason. I have used the fact that cheesus, is not evidenced in reality, and that theistic scholars have searched history for objective evidences for ever, unsuccessfully. However I have found that this line of reason, is immensely insulting and disrespectful...putting up more barriers than breaking down. Although conversation ending, never thought provoking...that I have seen. It seems to reinforce the failure in reason that reinforces their irrational belief. I have to figure out a way to break that bond of love that is tied to a god, and let theists know love is in everyone, no god needed...and do so poignantly and respectfully.
I can evidence this scientifically, but that has been near fruitless.
Ideas?
Anyone?
@Dog: I have never understood the focus on feelings in therapy. There are many therapies that do focus on them, Emotionally Focused Therapies like Gestalt. I am of the school, you change your mind you change the world. So you have answered your own question. "The deluded, and in particular people that fail miserably at reason, who follow abrahamic delusions, think that love transcends the brain...I mean WTF." THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY THINK! THINKING COMES FIRST. WITHOUT A MENTAL CONSTRUCT THERE IS NO REFERENCE FOR EMOTION.
With that said, emotional incongruity is something to pay attention to. This is especially true when dealing with sociopaths, alcoholics, and criminals. They will talk about horrible situations and smile. When the emotions do not match the message there is a psychological issue.
Anyway, back to our theists. Why do they respond to the world around them emotionally instead of logically. In the extreme cases, they just do not have the ability to understand logic and reason. It is easier to go with what feels right. In my own case, when I was a theist, Jesus filled a gap in my life. He was the father I never had until I grew up and realized I was my own father. Like anyone the Church targets, I was scooped up, promised a home, given unconditional love, and saved from the torments of hell. I no longer had to think or worry about a damn thing. And then I woke up and actually began to work on myself and on making my life better.
Religion is easy. All you do is follow the dictates of the Church and believe what they tell you to believe. No thinking required. And for giving up your brain you get friendship, communion with others, praise, forgiveness and the promise of life ever after. You get shelter from life's harsh reality. You get to stay in the loving embrace of mother church and daddy Jesus without ever having to emotionally mature. No matter what you do or what sort of ass you are, someone loves you and for one day out of seven you can experience that love no matter what. You don't have to go out into the world and work to earn it like the rest of us.
Just my take on it. (Edit: IT'S LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORK FOR.)
@bananaman
I understand that...thanks. Reading closely, it clearly sounds like a gang mentality...does it not? So the church is love, doctrine is love, others who share are love in action. But all is on the premise of acceptance of other like people, and not based on logic or reality. That's a cult. I have to figure out how to discredit that bond of love accurately, quickly and decisively. I also have to figure out how to repair the self perpetuated failure in reason. I think the theistic bond is based on love and acceptance...and how do you inject reason, logic and critical thinking into that? Any ideas?
Anyone?
@plantain peeler
"Edit: IT'S LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORK FOR."
Oh shit, I think your on to something there...
I came out of a cult. Never, never, NEVER call it a cult to someone in a cult - it’s a “high control” group.
@doG...I have to figure out a way to break that bond of love that is tied to a god, and let theists know love is in everyone, no god needed...
Have you ever “heard” the beaten/abused wife “knows her husband loves her and he will change” - or the “parent” that tells you they “love their children” and yet is extremely abusive/neglectful...
“Controlling” behaviours run deep in all areas and it is NOT a demonstration of “love”.
@CutePuppyAvatar
Religion's dominion on love in followers, is tied to faith(not a virtue) and belief despite lack of evidence(failure in reason) I know of the bastardization of this love and acceptance bond...almost everyone outside looking in, does. How do you get to that abused wife, is my question. That is THE task. Help.
I don’t know your theist situation but I often simplify things (‘cause I can be simpleminded;)
Often the relationship is a Father/child analogy (as mentioned by Cog) ... or the “Our father” prayer, anyway...
Say, you’re a kid. You’re being raised in a house. You’ve never met your dad. Your dad leaves you notes courtesy of your neighbours. Your neighbours sort of explain the notes to you but sometimes they contradict each other. The notes aren’t too helpful, outside some “rules”... make your bed or I’ll burn your hand... but rarely any recipes. Anyway, one day there’s a knock at the door and a stranger is there. “Knock, knock”, “who’s there”, “JC” (no, I’m not going to say “JC who”), “what do you want, who are you?” says the kid. “I’m your big brother, let me in”. “No, why should I let you in?”, “I’m here to save you!”, “Save me?!!! From what???”, “From me if you don’t let me in”... Your sorta stuck now, scared of how long the guy outside is going to hang around before he breaks down the door. You’ve never met your dad. Your neighbours are somewhat helpful, bringing you stuff but they can confuse the crap out of you...
None of the above is loving. Controlling yes.
I forget sometimes we have lurkers or a theist might think “but this kid HAS a father”. So to make it clear it’s a story using physical things, so yes in real life we’d have empirical evidence of sexual activity. So to make this clear “the stork dropped the kid off at the house”.
@BostonTerrierMommy
Gotcha, thanks again. I think its the need that leads to irrationality.
Any wolf in sheep's clothing showing up at my door, better have one of two abilities, empirical evidence or the ability to run, run faster than my bullets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDTZ7iX4vTQ
@doG Re: Pumped Up Kicks
I love that song... *chuckle*...
Look up the lyrics, its a pretty dark song...with a catchy light and airy chorus. Just like religion. :)
@doG Re: "its a pretty dark song.."
Oh, I know. Still a good song, though. Speaking of dark songs, do you happen to like Blue October? Talk about a bunch of dark music... wow. Funny thing about them, though, is their music actually relaxes me and cheers me up when I listen to it. Oh, the irony, right? Matter of fact, I spent hours listening to their Foiled album to help me relax during my first Iraq tour... *chuckle*...
Yup, still a good song. u r right.
I remember a song called ocean?, that my wife liked, years ago...otherwise haven't listened to them.
Baghdad?, north?, west? Sunni triangle?
Yes, music can provide many emotions. My best friend was killed, and I had to identify him...someone was listening to the pogues Ifaitytale of new york, when I found out. To this day I can't listen to that song without blubbering uncontrollably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9jbdgZidu8
@doG Re: "Baghdad?, north?, west? Sunni triangle?"
First Iraq tour (2006-2007) was primarily in Taji, running supply convoys mostly back and forth to the north. Usually no further than Tikrit, though. Second tour (2009-2010), my unit was stationed around BIAP, but I got loaned out to SpecOps in Balad because of my security clearance and previous experience in an SF unit. Fun times... fun times... *chuckle*...
You made it back in one piece, I hope. Ummmm ya...as fun as a nail in the foot.
@doG Re: "You made it back in one piece, I hope."
So far as I can tell, although I may have lost a few of my marbles along the way... *chuckle*...
Sounds like you may have also spent a few hours breathing in that delightfully refreshing air over there... *grin*...
@Tin...” although I may have lost a few of my marbles along the way... *chuckle*...”
You didn’t!!! Maybe knocked a few screws loose, but your “Right marble” protected you, remember?!?! Get your wife to grab the screwdriver!
@Whitefire Re: "Get your wife to grab the screwdriver!"
Oh, HELL no! Last time I asked her to do that I ended up walking funny for a week, and sitting down was very uncomfortable, to say the least.
@empathic chimp...” How do you get to that abused wife...”
OK - you don’t. Not to be mean, but there really is nothing you can do to change anyone’s mind or decisions. Now, should she happen to change her mind and leave, there’s empathic support for her emotional, physical and financial recovery (if SHE wants it)...
The abused wife is in fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of her life (if she leaves), fear of being homeless, fear that he’s telling the “truth” and would become the man he says he wants to be once she’s left... a stack upon stack upon stack of fears.
In her day to day life she’s already faced/been through the abuse so she knows what to expect and walking on egg-shells is a skill she’s now comfortable with. Also she’s not gas-lighted, beaten, accused, or controlled every minute of everyday - between that are the words and feelings of “love”...
So the most effective thing you can do is listen. Hold your tongue at times, but ask questions. Share experiences that you heard (or personal) that are close to what she’s experiencing and how you/that person came out of it.
That’s all you can really do.
Oh, and act with empathic love for yourself first, then the other...
@White
"OK - you don’t. Not to be mean, but there really is nothing you can do to change anyone’s mind or decisions. Now, should she happen to change her mind and leave, there’s empathic support for her emotional, physical and financial recovery (if SHE wants it)..."
Good post.
The abused wife indeed lives with fear. Also without self confidence or feelings of self worth. The abuser has destroyed her confidence and has her believing she is useless and simply could not cope without him.
Not a great deal another can do to person in that horrible situation. Not until she has made a decision to leave. It takes a lot of help and time to rebuilt her shattered self image.,after she has left.
Dealing with such victims, one always hopes she gets away before he kills her. That does not always happen.
@Whitey / Cranky
"The abused wife indeed lives with fear. Also without self confidence or feelings of self worth. The abuser has destroyed her confidence and has her believing she is useless and simply could not cope without him."
That's a devoid of love environment...that is just abusive. I think someone in that situation would react positively to outside love, support and compassion.
Religion, a different boat altogether.
@loving monkey
“ Religion, a different boat altogether.”
Not always...yes situation is different. Ok you’d think outside “support and love, etc” would show her; it doesn’t work that way. It’s how it’s “perceived” in their minds.
As a JW “all” things, people, religions, government, education blah blah blah belong to Satan’s world. All of it. Now, are you (if you’re in that mindset) going to trust anything outside of the religion? Satan is the master of deceit so anything that “looks” good, “sounds” right, “makes sense”, “is fun”... well those are just pretty lures to get you, my little fishy! So what’s the “mindset”? What is the fear that is so great “out there” that hanging in a high control situation is preferable?
And the empathetic love for yourself first is make sure you aren’t the one being “controlled”.
@Lucky13
Lets see...
The tie that binds is love. Religion, check. Abused woman, check.
Fear? Religion, check. Abused woman, check...but rooted differently. Can fear of eternal damnation be measured as equal to fear of loss of love?
Maybe. Although ones fear is based on delusional belief, and the other on physical love. Hmmmm. You may be right...the abused woman's fear is more tactile and immediate...so likely a tougher nut to crack, so to speak.
Although my suggesting of offering love, compassion and support would make zero sense with the religious...but may very well appeal to the woman's needs somewhere along the continuum of abuse.
@doG “... may very well appeal to the woman's needs somewhere along the continuum of abuse.”
YES. And only you know it - but “love” comes in all forms ... don’t be afraid of “tough” love. Ask my boys if you aren’t sure what it is! ;)
Here’s a personal example ... I am “delusional” in my previous marriage, in a “long ago” life where everything was “striving for perfection” (or controlling).
I have a best friend since childhood. She knew me well and loved me. She had “this logic” side to her brain but she had to keep veerrrryyy, veerrryyy quiet. But, overtime she couldn’t keep quiet about my marriage. Once when “I broke” over coffee she felt an excitement in her that she thought she’d never feel. Her best friend (me) might be waking up! But alas I phoned her in tears and told her “I didn’t mean the things I said; I was wrong and didn’t know what I was thinking...and everything is fine...”
Now my best friend is in a pickle. She loves me. I mean real love and she’s put this love in action and words her whole life.
We have coffee a few days later and I’m “back to my normal self” (the mindset I’ve chosen because everything if fine). She tells me she can’t do this anymore. I’m confused “Do what?” “Your relationship is toxic and my door is always open when you’re ready to leave, but I need to limit how much I’m around you with your husband because it effects me, and it’s not healthy for me emotionally to “do this thing with you”
WHAT?!??!!!
To make a long story short, it only took about a week for me to go stay at her place...
The fear of losing her and that part of me that she reminded me “existed” outweighed the fears he had me conditioned to.
But she had to examine her fears first. She was prepared for the choice,I might have made, to stay in that situation and never speak to her again.
It was a fear she was willing to accept.
@doG
Now your situation, I know nothing about. Keep at logic...it’s good...but emotions stem from “beliefs” (the person’s perspective).
What is it about your situation that has you feel so urgent in your need to help? (Rhetorically for you to think about, not necessarily answer on the thread) What is it you fear? And can you erect a healthy boundary in the situation for yourself?
***please don’t take this part too seriously, but if it’s your wife and she’s Christian remind her you are the “head of the house”, regardless of your belief/non belief and she’s only “your compliment” lol ... don’t do this ... it’s horrible ***
@wf13
"What is it about your situation that has you feel so urgent in your need to help?"
My immortality. Not fear of dying...faced that multiple times, so have got that reality nailed to my cross, so to speak. More so I feel an innate, somewhat altruistic, passion for my species...for humanity. Its odd after all I have been through in my life, and how I got here, that this is whats left.
My wife christian? ROTFLMAO. My wife will literally stop church goers and ask them if they believe in god while cupping their hand for an answer. When they do, she says, "get well soon". If she was christian, it would never have worked on my part. I don't respect irrationality. I love her, but honestly don't think I could have weathered that storm.
It's safer to love an idea instead of a person. You never have to argue and you never get rejected.
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