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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@Chimp
This is a difference in the translation. If you looked at the original Arabic, which is what is memorized by hundreds of thousands around the world, you would come to know that there is no difference.
No difference between past and present tense? Absurd!
ROYISM "If you looked at the original Arabic,"
Fnarr, another irony overload. An omniscient and omnipotent deity that is a monoglot.
"Fnarr, another irony overload. An omniscient and omnipotent deity that is a monoglot."
@Sheldon
Your poorest argument so far. The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic to Prophet Muhammad. He recited it in Arabic and the people wrote it down in Arabic. There is no other language in the world like Arabic. They have so many words for something for which in English we would use just one word. But in the Arabic language the different words don't all have the exact same meaning. Hence translating the Qur'an into English is literally impossible.
Non-Muslims sometimes think this is a "Muslim argument" - so approach a professional in linguistics, one who speaks Arabic and English and ask them what is the problem.
The Quran was preserved orally for some time before it was written down because the prophet was illiterate.
Oral transmission of stories, myths and legends is common in many cultures. I don't know if the Quran was passed down orally without error; neither does anyone else.
Unlike Christianity , Judaism has a long tradition of a few individuals memorising the Torah. However, such a tradition is widespread in Islam,. Large numbers of people have memorised the Quran.Such people are known as "Hafiz" ( guardian/memoriser) There are heaps of sites online to help a person memorise the Quran.
Although it cannot be proved that the Quran was passed down without error, in the context of Arab culture, that is not an unreasonable claim.
It is my understanding ( I might be wrong) that Arabic is one of the most precise written languages on earth,. That this came about specifically, so that the Quran could be written down without error. Don't remember where or when I read that, or who arranged the massive undertaking, so it should be take as hearsay.
My position; for this atheist, the topic is of limited academic interest. For me, the Quran and Hadith are the mythology of Islam. Perhaps worth noting in passing that 'a significant amount' of the Quran seems to have been lifted from theTorah.
So, even if this book hasn’t changed it’s content in millennium, how is that any indication that it was “divinely inspired‘? How is it an indicator of truth? How does it actually demonstrate a god?
There are many ancient books. Does their existence prove their content is accurate?
I need more than merely a book to convince me that a particular conjecture is fact. Someone willing to center their entire lives around only a book seems awfully lazy imo.
The scientific information within it proves it cannot have been written by man. It couldn't have been written by man 100 years ago. And there are still scientific discoveries that will be made and we will find an explanation for them from the Qur'an.
@ Leper
If you seriously believe that I have a nice Opera House to sell you in Sydney. Hardly used...and cheap!
This is an extract form RationalWiki:
It does destroy your fanciful dream:
General problems
A few generic faults plague effectively all "foreknowledge" in sacred texts:
- Scientific and historical knowledge necessarily must detail every process as accurately and precisely as possible. It is not scientific merely to make vague assertions, such as, "our bodies are made of the same stuff as the earth is," or "rain falls and waters our crops", because these claims are very ambiguous.
- Very few religious texts actually aim to provide detailed knowledge about the world (in the way that science and historical analysis do). The vast majority of statements from the Qur'an, and most other religious texts, are religious messages to followers, moral rules, or statements aimed at converting heathens.
- Even if some of the claims of "foreknowledge" were true, there are a vastly greater number of statements in the Qur'an with no basis whatsoever in fact. Even if every one of the claims presented here were correct (which they manifestly are not), they would still be vastly outnumbered by the absurdities.
- It's also interesting that discoveries are very rarely "predicted" by the Qur'an until after the discovery has already been made. One would imagine that a book so full of foreknowledge would be used to predict future discoveries, while it appears that the Qur'an can only "predict" current knowledge.
Criteria for scientific foreknowledge
For a statement to be Qur'anic foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:
- It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
- It must be in the Qur'an. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it is not in the Qur'an, because Qur'anic by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Qur'an itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Qur'an.
- It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
- It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
- It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.
Your kind of shite post has been debunked many times on these forums....and once again tonight.
You call that debunking? Quoting someone saying it can't be so without any actual reasoning based in the Qur'an itself but instead referring to "sacred texts"? From wiki?
@ Leper
Now come on Leper learn to read old chap......
- It must be in the Qur'an. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it is not in the Qur'an, because Qur'anic by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Qur'an itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Qur'an.
@old man shouts
It does mention the Qur'an, but it doesn't actually say anything about the Qur'an. It also refers to sacred texts. Meaning this article is written by some anti religious amateur who doesn't know how to prove, show or even explain his point clearly. And since instead of using your own words you quoted this article it seems you can't do that either. Do you really need someone else to explain your opinion?
@Leper
Actually the article is from RationalWiki...something I doubt you have ever read, and is about exactly the false claims you made.
Some comprehension classes and some removing of the religious blinkers would do you good.
But I won't hold my breath having read your other posts.
@Old man shouts
Not interested in adressing the point I made?
@ Leper
You have yet to make a point.
@Leper
"The scientific information within it proves it cannot have been written by man."
Please prove your assertion.
@Leper
What scientific information are you talking about?
It is full of them.
Example: The universe is expanding.
@Leper
Give the verses and we shall see?
@Talyyn
"Give the verses and we shall see?"
I can hardly insert the entire Qur'an here.
I already gave a topic. If anyone cared they already found the related verse. Here's the verse: 51:47 "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."
@Leper
But you can add a few more verses before and after this one? How do you know that the Universe they, are talking about ( because apparently Allah is schizophrenic), is conform to the modern cosmological view and known facts?
Anyway, i will look at it.
51:42 "It spared nothing that it blew on and smashed it to dust."
51:43 "And in Thamud! Behold, they were told, "Enjoy life for a little while.""
51:44 "But they defied their Lord's Commandment. Whereupon the thunder seized them while they looked on."
51:45 "And they were unable even to rise up and could not help themselves a bit."
51:46 "And the people of Noah aforetime! Behold, they were a folk who drifted away from the Truth."
51:47 "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."
51:48 "And We have spread out the earth, and how excellent a Spreader We are!"
51:49 "And all things We created in pairs and in opposites (such that one complements the other). This system has cause for you to reflect."
51:50 "So, flee to Allah. Indeed I am a plain warner sent by Him for you."
51:51 "And set up no god or Authority along with Allah. Behold, I am a plain Warner unto you from Him."
The universe and the world are spoken a lot
about in the Qur'an. There is nothing in it that leaves room for doubt about which universe is talked about.
@Leper
Are you purposely misunderstand me? Of course they would be talking about the same Universe as ours. I was talking about the cosmology of the "kosmos" discussed. Where did it say that all reality as we conceive it was confined in a singularity? Where did it talk about the four fundamental forces? Where did it talk about space-time being intrinsically bonded?...
And don't regurgitate the bullshit of using metaphors for an ancient people, i have already seen this canard. Then, look at the subsequent verse:
51:48 "And We have spread out the earth, and how excellent a Spreader We are!"
You don't spread a sphere, you spread a sheet, aka a two-dimensional object. Ancient Arabian people didn't have the knowledge of outer space.
And what are these other occurrences of the Universe in the Koran? We could check for example.
As far as we know, the Universe is a closed system. There is no new materials or whatever being created continuously. As for the expansion, it talks about the expansion of space itself .
@Talyyn
"You don't spread a sphere, you spread a sheet, aka a two-dimensional object. Ancient Arabian people didn't have the knowledge of outer space."
It is referring to the surface of the globe.
"As far as we know, the Universe is a closed system. There is no new materials or whatever being created continuously. As for the expansion, it talks about the expansion of space itself ."
The universe is an isolated system. Not a closed one.
Space?
@Leper
Why are you not addressing these facts? Anyway, you are saying a "globe", so this is enough to debunk your claim that the Koran gives scientific knowledge.
Isolated system? How so?
Space? You know, the thing between objects... or in euclidean geometry: x, y, z. Oh and let's not forget this:
"Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. .... Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom." (Qur'an 18:86-90).
https://quran.com/18
@Talyyn
Because it is besides the point. The question is not whether it mentions a specific x and y - that you want to bring up because you naively assume if it's complicated enough it can't be mentioned - but what it does mention and is it enough. If you're interested in a particular matter and its place in the Qur'an you can also search it yourself if it isn't closely connected to the discussion.
A closed system means it can change energy with its surroundings.
Did you object to the scientific fact mentioned in the Qur'an that the universe is continuously expanding or are you just turning away from that topic because you don't like it?
That's a description of an experience.
Leper, what you have offered as the translation of verse: 51:47 is translated VERY differently by others. For instance, another translation is, “And heaven – We made it with Our Own Power and We have the Power to do so.” Why should we accept your translation and not another?
And, btw, the next verse can be translated as follows: “(51:48) And the earth – We spread it out, and how well have We smoothed it!”
@CyberLN
There are nearly as many translations of the meaning as there are translators when it comes to Qur'an for reasons I explained in this thread before. The verses of the Qur'an have multiple layers of meanings which is why one verse and parts of it can have multiple meanings that are all equally correct.
There is no need for you to "accept "my" translation over another". This what I quoted is nevertheless an accurate translation of it.
Is there something wrong with the translation of 51:48? Or are you just providing another option?
Leper, you say the translation is the accurate one? Why? Does that make the one I provided inaccurate? Why?
@CyberLN
Not at all.
I said the translation I quoted is an accurate one, not the accurate one. The one you quoted is also accepted. So both are correct.
The translator Maududi - he translated the version you quoted - says in his commentary regarding this verse:
"The word must' (pl. musi'un) may mean the one who possesses power and means, and also the one who can extend and expand something. According to the first meaning, the verse would mean: "We have built this heaven by Our own might and not with somebody else's help, and its erection was in no way beyond Us. Then how can you ever conceive that We shall not be able to recreate it ?" According to the second meaning, it would mean: "This huge universe that We have created, is not a finished work, but We are expanding it continuously, and new and ever new manifestations of Our creation are appearing in it every moment. How do you then think that such a marvelous Creator would not be able to repeat His creation."
https://quranx.com/Tafsirs/51.47
They are both correct yet mean something different? How handy is that?! Wow! It’s pretty kewl that in Islam one can pick and choose one of the many acceptable translations based on what direction they want to go. Wow!
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