ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
There are various types of religions in existence with their own sacred books called bibles. The difference between the Judeo-Christian Bible and other religious books is that there is EVIDENCE showing it was inspired by Almighty God Jehovah. For instance, the Bible contains almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophesies, some written centuries before the fulfillment of the prophesied events. Secular history and archaeology bears this out. In addition, Bible writers had information that was not discovered by scientists and explorers until centuries later. Below are two such examples.
Example #1:
For a period of time in history, humans thought the earth was flat and that if one sailed too far out to sea, one was likely to sail off the earth. The ancient Sumerians believed earth was a flat round disc, but the only thing they got right was the part about earth being round. Their remaining claims about earth were so far from the truth that is obvious their "round" earth claim was simply part of their fairytale. It was not until the 4th century B.C.E. that the Greeks correctly theorized a spherical earth. But they were never able to prove it. By the 15th Century when Christopher Columbus claimed he discovered the "New World," most educated Europeans CORRECTLY THEORIZED that the earth is a circle or sphere.
It was not until after the first circumnavigation of the globe, led by Ferdinand Magellan in the year 1519 AD, that the THEORY of a 3-Dimensional, circular earth was supported by fact. More than 2,000 years before Ferdinand Magellan attempted to sail around the globe, the prophet Isaiah did not merely theorize but stated that the earth, when viewed from outer space, appears as a circle. Isaiah was earthbound at the time that he was inspired by God to write the following viewpoint description:
" {22} There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell, {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)
SIDE NOTE: Circles can be 2D (flat) or 3D (an ORB or a SPHERE)
Example #2:
Prior to the 17th century AD, none of the best scientific minds could explain what causes the earth to be positioned in a stable orbit. Then in 1687, Isaac Newton published his theory that gravitational forces are the explanation behind the earth's stability. (Gravity is also the reason why humans can move around without fear of toppling off the earth into space.) More than 3,000 years before Newton's existence, under divine inspiration Moses wrote the viewpoint description that, when viewed from outer space, the appears to be hanging upon nothing (indicating invisible gravity), as follows:
"He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, HANGING THE EARTH UPON NOTHING;" (Job 26:7)]
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. How could Isaiah have known that the earth is circular, considering that the writing of the book of Isaiah was completed in 732 B.C.E. and it wasn't until the 16th century AD/CE that Ferdinand Magellan proved the earth is a 3D circle when he circumnavigated the globe in 1519 AD/CE—2,251 years AFTER Isaiah wrote that the earth is a circle?
http://didyouknow.org/sailing/
http://www.rmg.co.uk/magellan
2. How did Moses know that the earth hangs upon nothing, indicating invisible gravity, considering that the book of Job was completed in 1473 B.C.E. and it wasn't until 1687 AD/CE that Isaac Newton published his theory about gravitational forces—3,160 years AFTER Moses wrote that the earth hangs upon nothing?
http://inventors.about.com/library/i...s/blnewton.htm
3. Where did Isaiah and Moses get this info?
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
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1. There is no evidence that suggests that Isaiah thought the earth was spherical. He thought the Earth was a flat circle just like everyone else. You said yourself in the side not that cirlce could mean a flat 2D circle. This is almost always what it means, seeing as 3D round objects are called spheres. We also take into consideration that many verses use the phrasing "corners of the Earth" or "edges of the Earth" Deuteronomy 13:7, 28:49, 28:64, 33:17. Job 2:8, 19:4, 22:27, 33:13, 48:10, 59:13, 61:2, 65:5, 72:8. To name a few. You can't assume that just the word circle is PROOF that God inspired the bible. If it can mean two things and most of the time it meant a flat circle, we can safely assume this time was no different.
2. Moses does not propose that the Earth is stable in space because of gravity. He says it hangs in nothingness because God holds it there. It is reasonable to assume he thought it hung in nothingness because anyone who didn't know about gravity and orbit would wonder why we don't seem to be sitting on anything visible. We figure he assumed this because this is what every other person who looked at the sky and proposed an explanation thought. He never mentions gravity. He explains what we know to be gravity as God holding us in his hand. This is not at all scientifically accurate and is the furthest thing from proof of divine inspiration.
3. This is irrelevant because they didn't have the info you said they have.
If you are interested in convincing an atheist that the Bible was inspired by God, try explaining all the discrepancies in the gospels Bart Ehrman points out in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjcseBJ7_Ns
That would be a good start.
Totally agree perfect rebuttal.
Perfect rebuttle... This argument bores me to tears. Plus, it's tirelessly erroneous. Magellan didn't "discover" the world was spherical, the Greek philosopher Pythagoras was the man who originally proposed that the moons waxing and waning phases were similiar to the shadows on a sphere rotating around a light source, and proposed that all the heavenly bodies were in fact spheres rotating around the sun. He proposed the theory 500 BCE. That was expounded apon 70 years later by Anaxagoras who proposed that solar and lunar eclipses were a result of the earth's shadow casting onto the moon. So no, Magellan didn't discover the earth was a sphere, most educated folks of the time knew there was already a theory and evidence supporting a round earth for over 2,000 years before Magellan. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Magellan only tried to circumnavigate the earth, until in all his christian compassion, he tried to enslave indigenous Phillipino's who in retaliation hacked his head off and put it on a stick.
And as a final note, there are different words for "sphere" and "cirlce" in hebrew. There was no accidental usage of the word, the writers of the bible really did think the earth was a flat surface. The bible contains no knowledge that wasn't already relevant at the time of it's writing, and it shows more often than not that the writers had a very poor comprehension of the natural universe. All the bible is, like the Illiad and other such writings, is purely guess work mingled with superstition and supernatural fiction. It's... just... stories.
You 2 left me nothing to say you covered it all well lol
The bible actually contains a lot less knowledge than was relevant at the time of much of it's writing, actually. Other area civilizations were apparently leaps and bounds ahead of the Hebrews - at least, according to what's written. Not entirely their fault though, due to their incredibly rocky political history.
Bottom line, ego, is that your book is not inspired by your god because your god is make-believe. You have presented zero proof. You have convinced no one but yourself with pseudo-intellectual arguments that seem to impress only their author.
That is very general wording and can be interpreted many different ways. And 2000 prophecies? That's a little far fetched.
Good arguments. I have less knowledge on how to disprove the credibility of the bible, what I know that it is just man made like any other mythology books. Thank you for enlightening my mind.
Alter2ego I take it you are a Jehovahs Witness, the points you raise do not conclusively proof there is a God. I was raised Jehovahs Witnesses and well know there argument points. You may not be aware but you can do your own research, but the monotheistic God (the one God theory) actually was first noted in Egypt in1348BC. The then Pharaoh Amenhotep, promoted the Sun God Aten to be the one and only God. Also noted is he banned all othef Gods, and Idols of them. Also to be noted is only himself and is wife, Nefitity could directly communicate with Aten, hench the beginning of the preists and clergy class. Also noted during Amenhotep reign was that it was struck with plague that killed many people, including his wife and six daughters. Amenhotep fell out of favor and the Egyptions returned to there former Gods. This is the time Moses is supposed to have left Egypt it is thought with a small group, it is generally thought they were forced to leave as they were worshippers of the one God.
Also as mentioned by Travis Paskiewicz the earth was known to be a sphere well before the birth of Christ It is recorded by the Greeks 500BC they noted at an eclipse the shadow of the earth was circular. It is also recorded that the Greek Erathosthenes measured the tilt of the earth as 23.5 degrees and measured the circumference of the earth. Both measurements were very close to what we know now. People from that time, were more knowledgeable and have a greater understanding than given credit for especially by organized religious groups.much knowledge was lost in the dark ages, when the general population was represessed by the Catholic or Roman Church. I know Jehovahs Witnesses have some unique beliefs in this regard. They jump from the early Christians 33CE to Charles Taze Russell in the 19th century with his interpretation of the Greek Scriptures defining 1914 to be the second coming of Christ. I could never work out why they ignored that huge period in between. I know they believe that chrisidom is under Satan's control but they even ignore the reformation lead by Martin Luther and the start of the protestant Church where after all there beliefs are generally based. You may also note The early Jehovahs Witness believed 144,000 were to go to heaven in 1914 when Armagedon was let loose by Jehovah neither happened. But they did I would say by coincidence get WW1 which gave them some credence in some eyes. They then got a new interpretation, now saying that the last days started in1914, and not all willl go to heaven, but the majority of Jehovahs people were to be left on earth in Paradise after Armagedon came and wiped out all the ungodly, which I presume you are waiting for. Something you may not be aware of is Jehovahs Witnesses usevto say that Armagedon would come in the life time (three score years and ten) of those who saw 1914 generally thought to be around 1974, though no men know the gime or hour. You will note this period has also come and gone.
I think if you got your head in the clear and looked at all the evidence there is absolutely no doubting we are a product of Evolution. I know all the arguments that if that was so how can change not be observed that clearly shows a lack of understanding of Evolution. Change is by environmental forces does not happen overnight but thousands and millions of years, there is Museums full of fossils showing changes. I do not mean to be rude but you are brainwashed you only associate with brothers and sisters of the same denomination and spend hours a week reinforcing your beliefs plus preaching which gives an us and them group mentality. I know it is called the Truth but that is far from the Truth. True Knowledge is recorded measured fact by numbers of scientific research teams labs and individuals, so little to no doubt is left. I am afraid to say but you live in a world with no known knowledge of a God, we only have ancient writings by people with little to no knowledge of the workings of the earth or universe, what is written there is their understanding of the world as they saw it along with superstition and Myth.
Wow, very impressive. Highly intelligent and knowledgeable Atheist. I am so proud of all of you!! Much Love!!!!
EX-CHRISTIAN_ATHEIST:
1. There is no evidence that suggests that Isaiah thought the earth was spherical. He thought the Earth was a flat circle just like everyone else.
ALTER2EGO:
Doubtless you have evidence to prove that, to quote you: Isaiah "thought the Earth was a flat circle just like everyone else." When do you plan to present such evidence?
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EX-CHRISTIAN_ATHEIST:
1. There is no evidence that suggests that Isaiah thought the earth was spherical. He thought the Earth was a flat circle just like everyone else. You said yourself in the side not that cirlce could mean a flat 2D circle. This is almost always what it means, seeing as 3D round objects are called spheres. We also take into consideration that many verses use the phrasing "corners of the Earth" or "edges of the Earth" Deuteronomy 13:7, 28:49, 28:64, 33:17. Job 2:8, 19:4, 22:27, 33:13, 48:10, 59:13, 61:2, 65:5, 72:8. To name a few. You can't assume that just the word circle is PROOF that God inspired the bible. If it can mean two things and most of the time it meant a flat circle, we can safely assume this time was no different.
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ALTER2EGO:
My exact comment, at the end of Paragraph 3 in my OP, is as follows: "the prophet Isaiah did not merely theorize but stated that the earth, when viewed from outer space, appears as a circle."
Isaiah gave a VIEWPOINT DESCRIPTION of how earth appears to someone who is in outer space, and he did that at a time in history when humans, including himself, were earth bound. It was not until the 20th century, when humans mastered space flight, that astronauts looked down at earth and confirmed what Isaiah had written by inspiration of Jehovah almost 3,000 years prior.
EX-CHRISTIAN_ATHEIST:
We also take into consideration that many verses use the phrasing "corners of the Earth" or "edges of the Earth" Deuteronomy 13:7, 28:49, 28:64, 33:17. Job 2:8, 19:4, 22:27, 33:13, 48:10, 59:13, 61:2, 65:5, 72:8. To name a few. You can't assume that just the word circle is PROOF that God inspired the bible. If it can mean two things and most of the time it meant a flat circle, we can safely assume this time was no different.
ALTER2EGO:
The verses you listed above are all using figurative speech. Even today people still use the expression "every corner of the earth," and we understand that they are referring to north, south, east, and west aka the entire globe.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
TRAVIS PASKIEWICZ:
Magellan didn't "discover" the world was spherical, the Greek philosopher Pythagoras was the man who originally proposed that the moons waxing and waning phases were similiar to the shadows on a sphere rotating around a light source, and proposed that all the heavenly bodies were in fact spheres rotating around the sun. He proposed the theory 500 BCE. That was expounded apon 70 years later by Anaxagoras who proposed that solar and lunar eclipses were a result of the earth's shadow casting onto the moon.
ALTER2EGO:
By your own admission above, Pythagoras merely "proposed" aka theorized. Theories are merely educated guesses. They are never considered to be proof. Why so? Because, by definition, a theory is a group of hypotheses (educated guesses) that can be disproven. So your claim about Pythagoras proving this or that is nonsense.
You cherry picked only the portion about a spherical earth that Pythagoras supposedly theorized (none of the sources I checked have confirmed he even had such a theory), but you forgot to mention that the followers of Pythagoras promoted theories that were dead wrong. Take, for example, the theory that the Earth, the Sun, and the other planets revolved around a universal "central fire." What central fire would that be? And let us not forget, Pythagoras apparently thought there were only 10 planets. He might have been good with Mathematics, but on astronomy, he definitely flunked.
BTW: The book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century BCE, more than 200 years before Pythagoras was even conceived. Likewise, the book of Job was written in the 15th century BCE or about 1,000 years before Pythagoras was conceived.
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TRAVIS PASKIEWICZ:
So no, Magellan didn't discover the earth was a sphere, most educated folks of the time knew there was already a theory and evidence supporting a round earth for over 2,000 years before Magellan. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Magellan only tried to circumnavigate the earth, until in all his christian compassion, he tried to enslave indigenous Phillipino's who in retaliation hacked his head off and put it on a stick.
ALTER2EGO:
As I stated in my OP most educated people THEORIZED a spherical earth. But it was not proven until the 16th century when, beginning with Magellan's attempt, other explorers of Magellan's time circumnavigated Earth and thereby proved that it is a 3D circle or spherical.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Actually, the Egyptians knew the exact diameter of Earth the entire time. It's laughable how the Western world keeps "discovering" things people already knew about, like vaccines, a Solar System, and the Americas
Are you out of your mind.
The church always asserted the earth was flat and the centre of the universe with no proof ignoring all other theory's.
You also have no understanding of what science means by a theory its bot just a guess.
By the way the central fire probably alludes to the centre of the galaxy which by coincidence is full of suns orbiting a supermassive black hole.
LMALE:
Are you out of your mind.
ALTER2EGO:
Apparently, you are out of yours if you think I will tolerate schoolyard insults from you or anybody else. If you write me anything else like that again, you will be added to my "Ignore" list
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LMALE:
The church always asserted the earth was flat and the centre of the universe with no proof ignoring all other theory's.
ALTER2EGO:
And? So what is your point? The Catholic Church did not write a single word of the Judeo-Christian Bible. What they did was try to interpret scripture using their pagan ideologies as a guideline. That is how they dreamed up Christendom's non-existent Trinity and their version of Dante's fictional hell.
And who do you suppose they got that tripe from about the earth being the center of the universe?
ANSWER: They got it Aristotle, the same pagan Greek who, in the 4th century BCE, correctly theorized that earth is spherical.
Skeptics are fond of heaping praises upon the pagan Greek whenever such ones correctly theorize something. But the skeptics/atheists are markedly silent about all of the fairytales the same pagan Greeks invented, such as Aristotle's false belief that earth was the center of the universe and Pythagoras' equally ridiculous tale that the Earth and the Sun were two among only 10 planets--get this--and the ten planets encircled a "central fire".
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Quick question, ego...who all at AR are on your ignore list?
I think I might be because Ego has never responded to one of my comments! In fact, the only time I even received mention was when I tried to explain what Ego was missing in one of your post. And for whatever reason, Ego thought I was bailing you out... For the record, I wasn't. I was trying to explain what Ego missed form you comment. Ego, exhibiting signs of being dense and ignorant however I believe, has potential to be quite intelligent if they ever break free from the mind-lock of their religion.
Unfortunately, given the many, many, many boards she proselytizes on, I don't see her breaking free. Sad, eh?
I think everyone that calls him on his shit and he cant argue back gets blocked.
I think everyone that calls him on his shit and he cant argue back gets blocked.
LMALE:
By the way the central fire probably alludes to the centre of the galaxy which by coincidence is full of suns orbiting a supermassive black hole.
ALTER2EGO:
Now you are speculating about what Pythagoras "probably alludes to". Pythagoras was not alluding to a "supermassive black hole" with suns orbiting it. His followers thought there were only 10 planets, which hardly qualifies as a galaxy "full of suns". Notice the words in all caps within the quotation below.
"Astronomy and the Pythagoreans
In astronomy, the Pythagoreans produced important advances in ancient scientific thought. They were the first to consider the Earth as a sphere revolving with the other planets and the Sun around a universal "CENTRAL FIRE." TEN PLANETS WERE BELIEVED TO EXIST IN ORDER TO PRODUCE THE "MAGICAL" NUMBER OF 10. This arrangement was explained as the harmonious arrangement of bodies in a complete sphere of reality based on a numerical pattern, calling it a "harmony of sphere." The Pythagoreans also recognized that the orbit of the Moon was inclined to the equator of the Earth, and were one of the first to accept that Venus was both the evening star and the morning star."
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Pythagoras.aspx
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
I wrote a long reply to you but my wifi died and lost my post.
Not going to bother typing it again you will just ignore what i say and spout more trite propaganda.
When I first looked at this thread I thought the title was POOF! I'm glad to see sensible and thoughtful Atheist actually did manage to make these JW superstitions go poof.
JW's are so serious. I wonder if they're allowed to laugh or even smile? Even the Pope smiles every now and then.
Listen AlterEgo, this may sound bizarre... But just because the bible uses the word "circle" to describe a view of the "spherical" earth from above does not mean that they talked to god to get the Idea. In fact the truth be told the idea may not even have been thier's to begin with. The sun is a circle, so is the moon, and all the stars. The superstition lot may have assumed that their god loved circles and made the earth circular. And plus, I should indulge your observation skills to point out several flaws in your argument that the bible describes the earth as a circle when viewed from above as proof that god told them the earth was round. Mainly that a sphere is not the only shape that would appear to be a circle when viewed from above. So would, ironically a flat disk, which was the prevalant belief at the time, also a cone when viewed from the top or bottom would appear circular, as a would a half sphere, or even a cylinder. However, the bible does not actually specify the shape of the earth, or offer any wording evidence to suggest it was a sphere. No, what the bible did was carry over beliefs from the Mesopotamians and Egyptian societies where a flat disk shaped earth was occuring belief. Hell, AlterEgo, why is you're bible right but the eqyptians who beleived in a circular world when viewed from above since the old kingdom... 3,000 BCE?
What I would like you to answer AlterEgo, is what proof can you offer that distuinguishes the bible's belief from that of any of the preceeding cultures belief in a flat circular disk-shaped earth? We already covered the assumed vantage point of a celestial being as flawed, as the belief of the previous cultures flat-disk earth also satisfies if all your going off from is a vantage point theory.
TRAVIS PASKIEWICZ:
Listen AlterEgo, this may sound bizarre... But JUST BECAUSE the bible uses the word "circle" to describe a view of the "spherical" earth from above does not mean that they talked to god to get the Idea.
ALTER2EGO:
The expression "just because" amounts to: "I don't care if the Bible writers had it right." Keep in mind that at the time the Prophet Isaiah gave a VIEWPOINT DESCRIPTION of how Earth looks to someone above it, humans were earthbound. So clearly, it was not his viewpoint description that Isaiah was giving, as noted below in the words that are printed in all caps.
"{22} There is ONE WHO IS DWELLING ABOVE the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell.... {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? JEHOVAH, THE CREATOR of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)
Notice that Isaiah not only said it was the viewpoint of someone ABOVE earth, but he identified the person as JEHOVAH.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
TRAVIS PASKIEWICZ:
No, what the bible did was carry over beliefs from the Mesopotamians and Eqyptian societies where a flat disk shaped earth was occuring belief. Hell, AlterEgo, why is you're bible right but the EGYPTIANS who BELEIVED IN A CIRCULAR WORLD WHEN VIEWED FROM ABOVE since the old kingdom... 3,000 BCE?
ALTER2EGO:
Wrong again, this time about the Egyptians. But then, you were wrong about Pythagoras and his 10 planets. No wonder you did not quote any sources to support that tripe about the Egyptians. How in the world would they have been able to VIEW earth from above in the first place?
You claim the Egyptians thought the Earth was a circle. It turns out the Egyptians thought the earth was a square with four corners. Notice the quotation from the source below. Take particular note of the portions that is enclosed within asterisks***.
"The Flat Earth
by Donald E. Simanek
Early Ideas About the Shape of the Earth.
The ancients had many novel ideas about the shape of the earth. The Babylonians thought the earth was hollow, to provide space for their underworld. ***The Egyptians thought the earth a square, (with four corners)*** with mountains at the edge supporting the vault of the sky.
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm
DEBUNKED!
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Someone using the words 'Just because' does not 'amount to i dont care if the bible is right' the rest of the words used shows the context.
Ill let them refute your mad ramblings if they wish just had to point that out.
Alter2ego your evidence of Jehovah being the one and only God who created All, based on the scriptures you quote as evidence does not stand the acid test. Take as an example Psalms 83: 18 Which says That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the most high over all the earth.
First off take the earth quote, is not our earth one of 9 in our Solar System, just a small planet, rotating around our sun just an ordinary sized star. One of according to latest estimates 200 to 400 BILLION stars in our Galaxy the Milky Way. That alone makes our earth very insignificant to say at the least. Then according to latest estimates observed by astronomers, using the Hubble space craft, our Galaxy is one of 500 billion that makes our earth no more than a spec of dust. Besides this Black holes in the center of most if not all Galaxies, dark matter(or as present understanding stands) pulling 20 percent of the Known universe in one direction, meaning there is some huge Gravitational force out there we at present can not comprehend. You quote a scripture around 3000 years old proving God exists even if it did say it was a sphere, which it does not, it gives the reader no comprehension of the universe Jehovah is supposed to have created.
And if you think about it rationally why would one supposedly so Great and good, who supposedly created this infinite universe that we as mere humans can not wrap our minds around, hang about this little planet earth and take great offense at a man and a woman, supposedly eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of Good and evil, according to Genesis 3. Do not you think this is absurd, but that was the understanding of a small part of the population over 3000 years ago, understanding of all things has progressed, far from there primitive understanding of there world, yet you persist in putting forth age old ideas as fact. It does not matter how Jehovahs Witnesses spin the Bible with there cherry picked parts of scientific fact it does not mean God exists. I know you are on here Witnessing, but maybe you being on this site is more than that. Maybe your attraction to this site besides bragging rights for giving it to the Athiests, is you have doubts about your own faith, and you are LOOKING for the REAL TRUTH.
Well said.
I posted something on another post id like to post here.
As a thought experiment a piece of paper proved a creator existed 1 atheists would accept it if it was verified 2 theists NEVER EVER WOULD unless it said it was their religion.
Lets move this thought experiment to the 'afterlife' an atheist dies a meets the creator bummer he says you got me good and goes to hell. But a theist unless it was his religion would be more likely to tell the creator he didnt exist.
Even if religion was shown to be the only way everything existed which it hasnt in the slightest what makes you certain your collection of scribbles are the correct ones.
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