A question for theists...

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Sheldon's picture
A question for theists...

I should like all the theists in here to list ten beliefs they hold without any objective evidence, and that are nothing to do with their religion.

Alternatively any theists can acknowledge they hold none, and explain why we should not infer an inherent bias in their religious belief, if it held to a different standard of evidence than all their other beliefs.

I would also like to ask to any theists here to list ten objectively moral actions, with evidence obviously, not just simply invoke their belief that objective morality exists because the deity they believe in is perfectly moral, as this is just a circular argument that invokes unevidenced claims.

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LogicFTW's picture
I strongly suspect the only

I strongly suspect the only answer we will get here will be the ones from crickets.

I cannot think of any other subject matter that people take seriously that has a total lack of objective evidence beyond the usual conspiracy theories most folks are wise enough to, at the very least, not admit to buying into. (Stuff like aliens from outerspace -as depicted in hollywood movies, etc.)

Kafei's picture
If everyone but simply

If everyone but simply followed the 10 commandments, we wouldn't have a heaven after death, but right now here on Earth.

Sheldon's picture
@Kafei

@Kafei

Well that's nonsense clearly, but what about the OP, have you anything to offer on that?

Kafei's picture
Well, if you're familiar with

Well, if you're familiar with my bailiwick relative to the neuroscience of religion then I'd point out there may be a neurological basis for an objective religious morality according to Dr. Roland Griffiths.

noreason's picture
the problem with religious

the problem with religious discussions is that they are deal with things that are 1/2 true. Things like don't be selfish and stuff.

for example: the ten commandments you gave. yeah, they are a good base set of rules for any society. For me, being atheist, I swap out "god" and insert any notion that points to "some ideas are more important than the individual" and they are fine.

There doesn't have to be "objective morality" for people to say "its not good to go around stealing stuff from people.". If some people need to be told "Because god said so!", well, I am not sure what to do about that to tell ya truth. But trying to reason with a person that can't be reasoned with is the definition of insanity to me.

Get off my lawn's picture
@noreason

@noreason

"for example: the ten commandments you gave. yeah, they are a good base set of rules for any society."

Well, I will tend to disagree. Let's have a look at the ten commandments, from the King James Bible (see e.g. here https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20&version=KJV):


1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Commandments 1 through 4 – nearly half of the commandments – are all about upholding the narcissistic and egotistical nature of the judeo-christian god, who seems to get a kick out of seeing his followers grovel and pray and give sacrifices to their deity. Since humans according to the Bible are created in this gods image, it would follow that God also has a penis. But what would God use this penis for, except jerking off whenever some of his adherents perform prayers and elaborate rituals to scratch his imaginary back and grovel at his feet, making him feel oh so superior?

Commandment 5 is, on the surface, sensible. But what if father and/or mother are abusive – sexually, physically, psychologically or emotionally? The fifth commandment is absolute, you are obliged to honour them, even if your father rapes you and beats you, and your mother destroys you psychologically and emotionally. Therefore, as formulated in the Bible, commandment 5 is not a good rule to direct the relationship between children and their parents.

Commandment 6 is more or less self-evident, as any civilization will arrive at this rule, for the better of all involved, and to improve the survivability of the family, the extended family, the village, or any other in-group. In fact, is there any society at all on Earth that has not implemented this commandment in some form? In short, you don't need the Bible to arrive at such a rule.

As for commandment 7, one might argue that the structure of the society in question dictates whether this one makes sense or not, and what constitutes "adultery". Some people choose to live in so-called open relationships, where the partners are more or less free to go out and "enjoy" other persons they find attractive for such ventures. Why shouldn't they be allowed to, as long as the "action" is between consenting adults, and their partners think it is OK? Why should an imaginary sky-god be so obsessed with and offended by what humans do with their genitals?

Number 8 is a no-brainer. If you have a society where ownership of things is accepted and it is customary to attach strong feelings to this ownership (which, I guess, is what it's like in most societies on Earth), this rule is a no-brainer. Don't touch the stuff I worked so hard to obtain. Get your own, or compensate me for the work I had to do to get it.

Number 9 is also quite self-evident. If you want a well-functioning society, it certainly does not help to tell lies about your neigbour. You are, by nature, equipped with empathy. Use it.

Commandment 10 is a pure thought crime. If you think the neighbour's wife/husband is super attractive (including, but not limited to, visually pleasing), and wish that you were the lucky one instead of your neighbour, you've commited a crime. Even if you only keep it inside your own head, and never ever act upon your desires. You simply are not allowed to admire your neighbour's wife/ox/ass/car/computer, and wish you also had one. You ARE to accept your place in life, and SHALL NOT wish for a better life.

In conclusion, only three or four of those commandments make much sense, and of these, three (6, 8, 9) are more or less self-evident. Most societies, whether judeo-christian or not, implement these in some sort or variation. Which means that you don't need the Bible to create sensible rules for society.

NewSkeptic's picture
@ get off

@ get off

Excellent analysis. It's also worth pointing out what the commandments do not denounce. How about slavery. Pretty simple to replace #1 with "Thou shalt not own another person."

Or how about getting rid of the whole sabbath thingie and putting in something useful like #4 "Thou shalt not harm a child, physically, sexually or mentally." That would be a good one.

How about getting rid of #3 and replacing it with "Thou shalt not needlessly or wantonly spoil the treasures of the planet".

Gotta believe my list is better and I'm not even omniscient.

(Spelling edits)

Sheldon's picture
Re-read the question please

Re-read the question please Kafei, I quite specifically didn't want subjective opinions starting with "maybe". We get those unevidenced claims all the time on here.

noreason's picture
"maybe ...just maybe ..." Is

"maybe ...just maybe ..." Is the foundation of science. Be that as it may, except for the part about him being right, you have point too.

Sheldon's picture
noreason "maybe ...just maybe

noreason "maybe ...just maybe ..." Is the foundation of science."

No it isn't, it's the starting point, and then after evidence gathering and relentless testing it is validated by a weight of empirical evidence, that reaches a tipping point and a scientific consensus. That's why I asked for objective evidence, not the subjective opinion Kafei offered with his maybe.

Kafei's picture
@Sheldon I understood the

@Sheldon I understood the question perfectly fine. What I've referenced is the neuroscience of religion going on at Johns Hopkins University wherein which a neurological basis for an objective morality is the very implication of this research.

Sheldon's picture
One more time then, I am not

Kafei @Sheldon I understood the question perfectly fine. What I've referenced is the neuroscience of religion going on at Johns Hopkins University wherein which a neurological basis for an objective morality is the very implication of this research.

Liar, you never attempted to answer either question, and you referenced fuck all, just made yet another of your tedious unevidenced woo woo claims. One more time then, I am not interested in your subjective claims. Either answer the fucking question, or don't, but I am tired of your lying bullshit. As you referenced no research, and didn't attempt to answer the OP questions. which were:-

List 10 objectively moral actions, with evidence..

List ten things you believe without any objective evidence, that are not part of your religious beliefs, or demonstrate some objective evidence for a deity.

You really are a tiresome tool. No wonder Dillahunty hung up on your ass. is that why you are here constantly whining and being butt hurt?

David Killens's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

Oh my, you drag a lot of baggage along with you, like a snail leaving a slime trail.

Is it possible for you to compose a coherent and concise statement without invoking the reader to research whatever the fuck you are babbling about?

Tin-Man's picture
@David

@David

Kafei has left the building.... with the help of Nyar's boot. May he find peace, happiness, and further psychedelic enlightenment somewhere on that purple mushroom in the great beyond.

In Spirit's picture
Hi Sheldon

Hi Sheldon

I understand your first 2 paragraphs.

Can you help me understand your 3rd paragraph.....
What are objectively moral actions? Examples would help. Not asking you to divulge yours but what others have used as examples.
One example of evidence to support an objectively moral act would makes things very clear for me.

Thanks

Sheldon's picture
In Spirit

In Spirit

"What are objectively moral actions? "

That depends on the basis of your morality, which as I said can only be subjective. For instance if your subjective moral outlook cares about avoid unnecessary suffering, then it would be objectively moral to avoid actions and behaviours that caused unnecessary suffering.

noreason's picture
"unnecessary" then becomes

"unnecessary" then becomes the point of discussion. Que in ...1/2 truths.

We all agree unnecessary suffering is bad. the 1/2 true part.
what is unnecessary? and what isn't? the questionable part.

if we can't answer without "god said so.." That conclusion needs to be cross checked by removing 'god said so." and see if it holds up. In fact, "always" and "never" need to be clarified also.

Sheldon's picture
"We all agree unnecessary

noreason "We all agree unnecessary suffering is bad."

Do we? I'm not sure that's the case, certainly not if one's morality is based on pleasing a fictional deity from an archaic superstition.

noreason "what is unnecessary? and what isn't? the questionable part."

I never claimed establishing a subjective basis for our morality, enabled us to have objective morals for every question, merely that it provides a framework from which objectively moral actions can be identified. This of course is in stark contrast to archaic religious doctrine and dogma, which is either followed literally making its adherents barbaric amoral automatons, or they cherry pick the bits that reflect their own prejudices, like Israel Folau who can't see his hypocrisy in using biblical texts to condemn gay people, but is happy to ignore biblical texts that prohibit eating shellfish or getting tattoos. What's objective about that "morality" exactly?

noreason "if we can't answer without "god said so.." That conclusion needs to be cross checked by removing 'god said so." and see if it holds up. In fact, "always" and "never" need to be clarified also."

Sorry but I don't know what you mean.

Cognostic's picture
@10 Objective Moral Actions

@10 Objective Moral Actions Theists Can Do, With Evidence.

God is the basis of all morality and the only evidence required for acts of morality. So theists can.....
1. Kill all non-believers as an act of morality....

Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine (non-believers) who do not want me to rein over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.

Deuteronomy 13:6, 7,
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (which neither you nor your fathers have known, (7) the gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the earth to the other),
(8) you must not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity, and do not spare him or shield him. (9) Instead, you must surely kill him. Your hand must be the first against him to put him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

2. Another Completely Justifiable Moral Christian Act is to Kill a witch. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exod 22:18) God commands it so it is moral. Leviticus 20:27, ‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’ Exodus 22:18 King James Version (KJV). 18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

3. It is completely moral to kill homosexuals in the name of God. God's morality is Absolute. Leviticus 18 and 20; "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22[2]
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13. (Sodom and Gomorrah, destroyed for its sin of homosexuality.)

4. It is moral to infect a herd of pigs with demons and run them over a cliff. (Fuck the Farmer!) Matthew 8:

5, It is perfectly moral to go on a Rampage and beat people with whips when you disagree with what they are doing. (Matthew 21:12-13).

6. It is moral to speak in parables so that your message is not clear and you are not accountable for the things you say as Christians. Mark 4

7. An act of moral excellence is SPITTING ON THE BLIND. (Mark 8:23) (John 9:6). You must spit on them to cure them. It's in the bible.

8, It is moral to make your woman be SILENT! Corinthians 13:34 and Timothy 2:21. So control that bitch!

9. There is no Forgiveness without human sacrifice. Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice. Jesus (fully human) had to die for our sins so that we might be saved. It is moral behavior to engage in acts of cannibalism and ritualistic cannibalism depending on your version of the Christian faith.

10. It is immoral to save money or think of tomorrow. The moral thing to do is give up all your possessions, think not of tomorrow, and just follow Jesus. Matthew 6:44, Luke 12:16-21, 18-22

11. Torture is Moral and God endorses it! Don't be afraid to torture others in the name of your god! Hebrews 10;28, Revelation 6:8, 9:4-6 eternal torture for finite crimes is the most moral of all positions in the bible.

12. It is completely moral to own another person as property, beat them (as long as you do not kill them) and pass them on as property to your heirs. 1 Timothy 6:1, 1 Peter 2:18. Exodus 21.

13. Divorce and Adultery are exactly the same thing. It is moral to kill anyone caught in the act of adultery! *Renemember - The woman caught in adultery was a late addition to the bible, does not appear in our oldest versions and is considered a forgery by nearly all biblical scholars." Matthew 5:31, 5:32, Marl 10, 11, 12. Corinthians 10, 11, 39

14. Self Mutilation is a good thing --- Better to mutilate yourself morally than to engage in an amoral act. Matthew 5:29, 30. Mark 9:43, 27:36, 52:48

OH! I'm sorry. I went over 10. Well, this just goes to demonstrate that Christians have a far superior moral compass than do the secularists or ATHEISTS on this site. EDIT: ( :-) )

Edited to make 'C' happy! :)

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

Copied and will be re-used as appropriate...

Calilasseia's picture
You forgot the [End sarcasm]

You forgot the [End sarcasm] tag :)

rat spit's picture
I’ll go

I’ll go

1) there are aliens
2) they’ve abducted me twice
3) I was a business man in a former life
4) in that life I left my wife at the age of forty and went on to live in Volks Wagon Beetle
5) God is an industrial stainless steel toilet
6) The portal to Hell is quite small and looks like a loud speaker
7) the gates of Hell read, “Welcome to Hell. This is not a joke.
8) the depiction of a clowns face at the entrance to Hell we find in movies and media is an accurate depiction
9) when I was abducted the second time, I found my self on a mattress in a cell. The one condition of my incarceration was that if I took one step off the mattress I would immediately go to Hell
10) God would send me to Hell by launching a rocket out of the toilet. This rocket would go up my ass and bring me through the loud speaker into the red eternal damnation of Hell (and I’m fucking deadly serious about this. No jokes. All of that shit is stuff I strongly believe but have no evidence for).
11) the walls and carpets of the alien vessel will move if you exert perceptual consciousness on them.
12) there are chicks on this space vessel. I heard them laughing outside the room I was in
13) the aliens are so long lived because they habitate an extremely clean and sanitary environment - in fact the universal disinfectant they use smells like cookies

How’s that, Sheldon? Do I win?

Tin-Man's picture
@Rat Spit Re: "4) in that

@Rat Spit Re: "4) in that life I left my wife at the age of forty and went on to live in Volks Wagon Beetle"

Aw, dude, that sucks. Those things have absolutely NO leg room. I imagine trying to sleep in it was a real bitch.

Jo's picture
@ Sheldon

@ Sheldon
Here is my answer to your question - "theists beliefs they hold without any objective evidence."

Humans can choose to be noble, good, self-sacrificing, benevolent, faithful, and humble.
Humans are more than just the sum of their parts.
Humans are more than just very complicated biological entities.
Humans have a soul, spirit, or something that cannot be explained solely through science.
Humans have minds and free will.
The above are not just a product of electro-chemical actions developed through evolutionary happenstance.

Now that I have answered your question I think it is only fair for you to answer the same as an atheists.
I will help you get started with some examples of what atheists believe without objective evidence.
Objective evidence can be provided to prove or disprove God.
There is no God.
God can be disproved.
There is only the natural world.
There is nothing supernatural.
Humans are solely a product of evolution.
Science can answer all questions.
Life occurred through only natural processes.
The universe occurred only through natural processes.
God has never intervened in human affairs.
God was not somehow behind the creation of the universe and life on the earth.
The universe created itself.
The universe created its own laws.
Life created itself.
The universe and life has no purpose, meaning, or reason for existence.
There is nothing after this life.
Theist have only psychological reasons for the beliefs, but atheists never do.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Tin Man, Cog, Grinseed,

@ Tin Man, Cog, Grinseed, Random, Talylyn...

hey guys grab the popcorn, Cali,can you grab some splatter sheets? I think this conversation is going to be bloody....* carries on decorating the seats*

*Thinks out loud* "Where is that nicely carved wooden platter?..I mean if you are going to have your own arse handed to you, its got to look nice...an apple that's what we need....a nice red apple...oooh and some parsley...."

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "Cali,can you

@Old Man Re: "Cali,can you grab some splatter sheets?"

Hey, would it be okay if I get one all to myself? I'll need to cover every square inch of myself. I don't mind blood in general, but for some odd reason it tends to tarnish my chassis quite badly... (Please don't ask me how I know that.... *whistling innocently*...) Oh, and don't worry, I have my own mask and snorkel. But, damn, it is going to make eating popcorn a real pain in the ass. Well, at least I can drink the eggnog through a straw. Wow! This should be FUN! Almost like going to a Gallagher show! Make sure we get front row seats!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

Front row seats? Nah mate we are in the Royal/President's box....with Shelley in his current mood I think this will be like one of those pre anesthesia surgical procedures and dentistry they used to have as public spectacles in the 19th Century.

I was wondering about suitable entrance music for them...

David Killens's picture
https://www.youtube.com/watch
Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "Nah mate we

@Old Man Re: "Nah mate we are in the Royal/President's box..."

...*throwing tantrum*... Awwww, but I want to be in the splatter zone! That's where it's the most fuuuuuuuuun...!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

Simmer down clanker...the mood Sheldon has every right to be in will result a splash of bodily fluids and parts that would have made Shamu proud.....I am sure enough splatters will reach us in increasing waves that even Dracula would be sated....

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