Relationship with god?

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Endri Guri's picture
True, thanks, it's actually

True, thanks, it's actually good to know that. I retract what I said above, after all, I expressed a little doubt, something which I will need if I ever am to learn.

Endri Guri's picture
True, thanks, it's actually

True, thanks, it's actually good to know that. I retract what I said above, after all, I expressed a little doubt, something which I will need if I ever am to learn.

Harry33Truman's picture
Well you would have to find

Well you would have to find out what a person would be like with or without a soul, find out what difference it makes while you are still alive, and go from there. Aside from that a soul isn't something that you can dissect a person and extract.

ThePragmatic's picture
The definition of the word

The definition of the word Atheism is fairly simple: "Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings." or "Rejection of belief in God or gods.". The word derives from the Greek "atheos" which means "without god" or "godless".

You can believe in mediums, ghosts, souls, afterlife, reincarnation, ancient alien astronauts, bigfoot and the chupacabra and still fit the definition of an atheist.

Endri Guri's picture
That's actually what I wanted

That's actually what I wanted to know. Since I clearly saw that Atheist means being God-less, thus reaching the Conclusion of Disbelief in the Existence of Supreme Beings of Being.
What I was confused about was that, as Atheist, expect for that, is it Required for us not to Believe in things that therefore have no actual evidence to Support them.

mediums, ghosts, souls, afterlife, reincarnation, ancient alien astronauts, bigfoot and the chupacabra - I don't believe in them at all.
I MIGHT believe in the Soul Theory though (there was a Scientist I think that weighted a Person when he was alive, and then weighted him seconds after he died (it was done voluntarily)). I know that our Organism works Mainly by Relying on the Brain and the Nervous System to complete daily activities.
I am so confused.....How do I say this.... I believe that "This is All the Life I Have and I should spend it Carefully and Use it to it's fullest Potential", but after Death, No one knows what Happens.
Christians and Muslims believe in Heaven, which I clearly Oppose.
Budhism, Jainism, Sikhism believe in Reincarnation.
Atheists believe that this is the Life that We have and there is nothing afterwards.
But in REALITY, none of these ABOVE can actually Prove these Hypothesis.

But one has to Wonder above all that even an Atheist, does it just End with Death?
I'm not saying there should be a Heaven, no at all, but Reincarnation, is the Closest and "Rational" "Belief" we can Grab and Debate on.

mykcob4's picture
You can ask all you want what

You can ask all you want what actually happens after death, but the fact is that there is nothing as far as credible information to prove any theory. Atheism requires proof of a deity, as I do for any of these theories or ideas. I have watched many people that have pulled that weigh the body before death and after death trick. Needless to say, it proves nothing other than the fact that most bodies loose a small amount of weight immediately after death. It doesn't prove that there is a spirit, a ghost, a soul, nothing. The insignificant weight loss could be due to escaping air or vapor, but nothing is actually proven.

ThePragmatic's picture
@ SkyDiVer

@ SkyDiVer

"mediums, ghosts, souls, afterlife, reincarnation, ancient alien astronauts, bigfoot and the chupacabra - I don't believe in them at all."

Good for you! :D

To not believe in anything except with supporting evidence, is not atheism.
The correct term would instead be skepticism or empiricism.

Assuming that by soul you mean something like "the immortal essence of a human being"...

Apparently in 1901, Duncan MacDougall performed some soul weighing experments and concluded that the soul weighs 21 grams. ( )
It's also noted that "the weight loss was not reliable or replicable", so I don't think that's anything to rely on.

And even if that would have been a correctly performed and reproducible measurement, why would a soul actually weigh anything? That would mean that gravity can pull on a soul. Waaat? :)
Then there are numerous problems with the concept of souls, but that is a whole topic by itself.

When it comes to reincarnation my own reasoning was something like this:
If we reincarnate, that means that our "life force" or "soul" is reused over and over. So, is there the same total amount of "life force" or "souls" circulating, or is there new "life force" or "souls" added from somewhere?
The human population is increasing constantly. Is our "life force" or "soul" getting more and more diluted?
If we do reincarnate, but we loose all memory of the previous life, then what is the difference from the view that when we die that's it? Reincarnation becomes irrelevant, even if you believe in it.

I think we die when our brain shuts down, and that is it. (If the body can be revived before deterioration causes brain damage, we can be revived with all our personality and memories in place)
I think that this very rational view of death scares the s**t out of most people and they are prepared to believe in just about anything to avoid facing it. And that this is one of the most important contributors of the success of religion.
I think that accepting that death is the end, is a healthy step of maturity that allows people to focus on this life.

Endri Guri's picture
I have something to ask,

I have something to ask, kinda related to the Topic Above, since I am an Atheist - I oppose God's Existence, accept Rationality and Open-mindedness. But does that mean I have to give up on believing that the Human Body actually has a Spirit (Soul), but I say it doesn't go to Heaven, it's actually Placed in another Infant (as Soon as the Fetus emerged in the Impregnated Woman) so as to Initialize the "Reincarnation Process" as it is said in some Beliefs (I think it was Budhism or Taoism). 'Cause even as Atheists, we should at least consider about that right?

Nyarlathotep's picture
SkyDiVer - "since I am an

SkyDiVer - "since I am an Atheist...does that mean I have to give up on believing that the Human Body actually has a Spirit (Soul)..."?

Absolutely not; you can be an atheist and still believe in a soul. I don't think there is a soul, and could provide some arguments to try to convince you otherwise. But I don't think there is any inherent contradiction for an atheist to believe in a soul.

mykcob4's picture
I disagree. To believe in a

I disagree. To believe in a soul is to believe in something not proven. Atheism is not just believing in a god, but also requiring prove of any assumption. Granted the pure definition of atheist is limited to the disbelief of a deity or gods, but I suggest that the idea of a soul is tantamount to believing in a god. One can conclude that a belief in a soul is to believe that that soul exists because of a supernatural force. Divining a life force energy as a soul is to claim that that energy is a controlled energy, controlled by a supernatural deity. For example a person has a soul. What is a soul? By definition:

the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
the essence or embodiment of a specified quality.
"he was the soul of discretion"
synonyms: embodiment, personification, incarnation, epitome, quintessence, essence; More

If a soul is immaterial, then it is spiritual. If it is spiritual, then it is not natural and therefore fictitious. It's like believing in ghosts. You must first prove that ghosts exist.

Endri Guri's picture
I'm sorry, but I highly

I'm sorry, but I highly disagree with you on the part where you said: "idea of a soul is tantamount to believing in a god". Why I say that is because of Budhism, since Budhism doesn't actually have a "God" (now let's be clear that Budha is not a God or Deity to them, he is more like a Teacher). And Budhism actually does have the concept of Reincarnation (After the Body dies, the Soul moves on to another).
I Cannot prove it, but you also can't Prove that it doesn't Exist (no offense).
There are many things related to Religion that we don't have the Answer to, and actually that's been a long dispute between Religious People and Atheists (Since Atheists cannot prove that God DOESN'T Exist, while Religious People Can't PROVE that God Exists)

charvakheresy's picture
Buddhism arose from the

Buddhism arose from the teachings of a person called Gautam Buddha who chose an ascetic life over being king and preached equality due to casteist oppression that was prevalent at that time. It may not be inaccurate to say that the story of Jesus may have been inspired by him.
Thus even though a lot of his teachings were unique for his time, a lot was borrowed from the dominant religion which was brahmanism which is where he got the concept of life cycles and rebirth and Nirvana and all that from.
Unless you can prove the existence of a soul there is no point believing in it nor in an afterlife. There were times I believed that rebirth was a more suitable choice for an afterlife than an eternal heaven and hell but even though it is a better concept does not necessarily make it real. Without proof there is no point.

Deidre32's picture
To the best of one's ability,

To the best of one's ability, he/she feels that they're in a relationship with God, or that through prayer and experiences, that their faith is real. I have never been called a 'nutcase,' and don't think I am. I'm not sure what calling people of faith names, really does for your 'argument.' But...that's my answer.

mykcob4's picture
All I ask is for you or

All I ask is for you or anyone to prove that you are actually in a relationship with a god, and secondly, that prayer works any better than a placebo.

Deidre32's picture
What am I proving it for,

What am I proving it for, yours or someone else's approval? Then if you say...''I agree, that serves as evidence,'' then it must be so? lol
I don't need your approval to believe that a deity exists.

mykcob4's picture
No, my approval isn't

No, my approval isn't necessary, but I contend that your god is an illusion. If you don't want to prove it, then either you know it is an illusion, or you can't. You say your god is real, but just saying it isn't enough now is it? You think that I am being arrogant, but what about you? You claim that you feel your god. However, anyone can say that. It is arrogant to expect us to believe you. If you don't want flack about what you claim, don't make such claims or prove it.

Deidre32's picture
I don't expect you to believe

I don't expect you to believe me, that is where you're wrong. You expect me to prove God to you, but I don't expect anything from you. We're just conversing. Is it not possible for theists and atheists to simply discuss, without strife and the need to berate each other's ideas? I'm capable of it. But, it seems that many atheists can't live and let maybe you should figure out why it's so important that theists seek your approval, and seek to prove something to you.

mykcob4's picture
I really don't care. I don't

I really don't care. I don't need to "give my approval" as you don't want my approval. I am stating a fact. You claim that you have a relationship. You made that claim. No one asked you to. You just did it. I AM discussing the idea of a relationship with a god. I don't think it exist. One cannot prove a negative, so to prove a relation exist one needs to prove that a god exist. You want to change the subject simply because your claim has been challenged. You take offense to such a challenge, yet YOU, all on your own made the claim that you have a relationship with a god. You claim that you follow jesus without religion, but that cannot be true as to follow jesus is by the very definition christianity. Look where you are posting. Do you really expect to come on this forum and not be challenged when you claim to have a relationship with a god?

charvakheresy's picture
@Deidre. - What is a belief

@Deidre. - What is a belief if not backed by evidence. Belief in the irrational despite proof to the contrary is the definition of Delusion.

Why should an Idea or an Ideology be above reproach. Known scientific works are subject to review then why shouldn't all ideology.

I understand you have the right to your beliefs and it is not my or anyones place to forcefully convert you and nor is that our attempt, however when you address your beliefs on an open forum promoting a belief in the supernatural you must be ready for a scrutiny of your ideology or show some proof of the same.

Discussion of ideas requires us to critically analyse the scenario for what it is and so proof is essential, wouldn't you agree?
If one of these atheists were to tell you that you were not "begotten" but rather dropped off by a stalk and so was every other human, you would demand proof, wouldn't you? And then would an answer of "I just believe" or "I have faith" or even "The star speaks to me" be sufficient?

Most Atheists do believe in live and let live and I think "berate" was a bit unfair. However if you do discuss your beliefs they will argue as that is not the same as hounding you about your belief. Its just asking for proof.

Deidre32's picture
@Charvak, this is true, it's

@Charvak, this is true, it's not above reproach, but if you don't get the answers you like, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Or you're right. It just means that with faith, some things aren't put into a neat little box, as with many things that have objective evidence. It would be science and not faith, if I could lay it all out and have you believe. Even atheists have hope at times. If someone says to you upon asking if he/she thinks their mother is going to perish...and you assure the person by saying ''I have hope that they won't die,'' are you lying? Are you delusional? Or is your hope just something that you're not able to prove?

Faith is like hope.

mykcob4's picture
No, it isn't. Having faith is

No, it isn't. Having faith is not having hope.

complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine
"she gave her life for her faith"

a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen.
"he looked through her belongings in the hope of coming across some information"
synonyms: aspiration, desire, wish, expectation, ambition, aim, goal, plan, design; More
a feeling of trust.
want something to happen or be the case.
"he's hoping for an offer of compensation"
synonyms: expect, anticipate, look for, be hopeful of, pin one's hopes on, want; More

Completely different.

charvakheresy's picture
I would beg to differ here.

I would beg to differ here.

Between the two of us (I mean my atheism and your theism) I am not the one who has a problem accepting answers I do not like.

I do not like the fact that I am mortal and there is no life after death, It keeps me awake many a nights. But I accept it as reality (not you)
I do not like the fact that there is no benefactor looking out for me, I wish there was. But I accept the reality that there isn't (you do not)
I do not like the fact that there is no ultimate justice nor judgement for evildoers. But I accept it as life. (You do not)

There is no evidence to prove any of the above and so it falls under irrational beliefs/ superstitions and so I believe (with evidence) you need to augment your earlier statement as to who it is that has a problem with accepting answers they do not like.

Hope is both a very important and a fragile emotion. It is necessary but only if realistic.
realistic hope that a person no matter their circumstance can change their station in life is inspirational.
unrealistic hope to a person dying of a terminal disease will cripple them and their family.

Which kind of hope are you propagating?

Freeslave's picture
Exactly Deidre. This is

Exactly Deidre. This is precisely the crux of the issue. And all proof or evidence provided which leads to the rational likelihood that the existence of God is plausible is met with mockery and ridicule from some (not all) but some atheists. There are some atheists with whom you can have intelligent conversations without resorting to insults, but that is usually not found in a blog. Kudo's for not taking the bait! :)

mykcob4's picture
No one was baiting her. The

No one was baiting her. The fact is that the idea of a god is NOT plausible, and is certainly NOT rational. To believe in a god you have to jump to a conclusion. You call it faith. Logic calls it lack of evidence.
The typical line of "reasoning" by theist is:
Everything in the universe is organized, so there must be a god.
The thing wrong with that is it lacks merit. Everything is NOT organized, and you have to ASSUME there is something organizing it.
No one insulted Deidre. No one called her names or anything of the sort. The fact is that theist cannot accept anyone questioning their belief. They take it as a personal insult.

ThePragmatic's picture
@ Deirdre

My question is:
If a relationship with god is only within the scope of that persons mind, how would it be possible for that person to differentiate between it and delusion?

mykcob4's picture


chimp3's picture
This is debate forum. An

This is debate forum. An atheist debate forum at that. We love to argue. A lot.

ThePragmatic's picture
Don't mind mykcob4's harsh

Don't mind mykcob4's harsh approach. He means well and has a lot of good points, but he attacks problems like a soldier. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's not.

(No disrespect intended, mykcob4)

mykcob4's picture
None taken!

None taken!

Deidre32's picture
It's not a problem for me,

It's not a problem for me, though...only for him. ^_^ And it's okay, I don't mind. I'm used to it since coming back to faith.


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