Rule 34 and Proof of God

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Sapporo's picture
@Jo

@Jo
The bible describes Mary as a young woman, not a virgin.

Jo's picture
@ Sapporo

@ Sapporo

Luke 1:34 Mary asked the angel, “But how can this happen? I am a virgin.”

Matt 1:18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Here is a reference
http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/yeshayah714.html

Sapporo's picture
@Jo

@Jo

The word used to described Mary was not "virgin": https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)#.22Like_a_virgin.2C_touched_for_the_very_first_time....22

But at least we are in agreement about the most important thing (i.e. Mary not being a perpetual virgin).

Jo's picture
@ Sapporo

@ Sapporo

I dojn't think your reference supports Mary not being described as a virgin. Here is what it says:
"The original text said a young woman ("almah" usually means "young woman" but can also mean "virgin") would give birth; the passage was translated using the Greek word "parthenos" (which can mean "young woman" but usually means "virgin")."

Mary described herself as a virgin.

LogicFTW's picture
This conversation illustrates

This conversation illustrates a huge problem with 2000 year old religious ideas.

We can guess with trying to translate 2000 year old writings, but who really knows what the original author(s) meant?

I can tell you, I see zero sign of some greater intelligence having any sort of role whatsoever in these writings. If anything, these writings very well correlate to what a few rich/powerful humans thought and what was important to them 1000 to 2000 years ago.

Jo's picture
@ Logic FTW

@ Logic FTW

"We can guess with trying to translate 2000 year old writings, but who really knows what the original author(s) meant?"

Does that apply to all writings from 2,000 years ago, or just the Bible?

What would be a sign that a greater intelligence had a role in writing the Bible?

Tin-Man's picture
@Jo Re: "What would be a

@Jo Re: "What would be a sign that a greater intelligence had a role in writing the Bible?"

Just taking a stab here, but I would say having the bible actually sound like it was written by a greater intelligence would probably be a good sign.

LogicFTW's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Does that apply to all writings from 2,000 years ago, or just the Bible?

All writings, I would expect all writings written 2000 years ago to reflect the thoughts and abilities etc of people that wrote them 2000 years ago, and all these writings will be difficult to properly translate.

I will throw in, that the various religious text, have it even worse, as they have had countless revisions, edits, translations, all of which no matter how careful they are, run the risk of putting these editors and translators mistakes and biases and needs placed in them instead of simple honest translations. Even if the translations were somehow perfect, the fears, needs, desires, education and nay entire way of life was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then.

Ever have to read shakespeare in school? A common one I remember is Romeo And Juliet, and I remember the teacher having to teach us what "beware the ides of march" meant. Because we today have zero cultural reference to that. Without explanation that term is meaningless to us today. And Romeo and Juliet is not supposed to be some rule book on how to do life and what to expect after it.

What would be a sign that a greater intelligence had a role in writing the Bible?

A sign of greater intelligence? Well an easy one would be conveying "information" or rules that stand the test of time. Religions have muddled the issue a lot, but I think we can agree that just about all religions at their core, say their holy text is "divinely inspired." If this all powerful god wanted to convey information, why not do it in a way that would stand the test of time?

I am no god, but even I can think of a dozen ways to far better to convey instructions, information and rules then divinely inspiring some humans for a few years to "write" a book a thousand plus years ago, at a time when I would say at least 75% of the population could not read or write, let alone even access such information.

Again all this history and explanation of god has 2000 year old human fingerprints all over it, it makes zero sense a super intelligent god would want to convey information this way, it makes a HUGE amount of sense that people thousands of years ago wrote it and "claimed" that it was inspired by god.

Everyone should challenge information presented without evidence, and this should be doubly so for something based on something written over a thousand years ago. The skeptic meter should be maxed out at 10/10 for this stuff.

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Sapporo's picture
Jo: Mary described herself as

Jo: Mary described herself as a virgin.

Good point.

NewSkeptic's picture
Mary's Father: Mary, you've

Mary's Father: Mary, you've been spending way too much time with that goat herder lately.

Mary: His name is Joseph father, and he's wonderful

Mary's Father: You're 12 freaking years old, you should be spending your time with your mother hauling water from the stream and cooking and cleaning.

Mary: Oh Father, you are so negative first century.

Mary's Father: Mary, turn sideways

Mary: wha-wha-wha why Father?

Mary's Father: Mary, just do it or I won't spare the rod.

Mary: (turning sheepishly) Oh Daddy!

Mary's Father: You little whore! Where is that goat herder son of a bitch. I'm gonna bury my hot poker us his ass (Editor's note: not seeing the humor here)

Mary: (thinking quickly) Bu,,uh..uht Daddy, Joseph and I have not, you know, been with each other, maybe a bit of heavy petting but that was it. It was, it was, uh, the Holy Spirit, yeah that's it, it was the Holy Spirit!

Mary's Father: The Holy what!? Don't feed my a line of bullshit Mary, I wasn't born yesterday.

Mary: The Holy Spirit Daddy, you know, part of the Holy Trinity. Co-equal and both together with and separate from God the Father.

Mary's Father: The what? Stop with the Jibberish. You expect me to believe that crap.

Mary: It's not poo-poo Daddy. The Holy Spirit came to me in a dream and told me that I was chosen to deliver the Son of God and his name shall be Emmanuel. He will be the third part of the Trinity and he will forgive all of our sins. Isn't that wonderful!

Mary's Father: Stop with the lies Mary. I'm going to skin that bastard.

Mary: But Daddy, I'M A VIRGIN!

Randomhero1982's picture
You can Google flat earth,

You can Google flat earth, doesn't make it a fact...

....unless you're bereft of any cognitive abilities and enjoy the taste of crayons....

rat spit's picture
And what about flat earth

And what about flat earth porn? If it exists, then there is pron of it (rule # 34). Any links? *slurping the drool back into my mouth*

David Killens's picture
Geez rat spit, is 98% of your

Geez rat spit, is 98% of your brain devoted to sex and porn?

rat spit's picture
Well. I do have a penis

Well. I do have a penis fetish. I will admit that I find the penis to be a fascinating bodily appendage. But, as a rule, I don’t watch porn and I don’t masturbate. So, yes - 98% of my brain has a craving for the “forbidden”.

Let’s take this thread down another direction.

Now, apparently, there’s no evidence that masturbation reduces testosterone levels. However there is evidence that masturbation reduces androgen receptors in the brain. This shares a connection with sexual pheromones.

In other words, those who incessantly masturbate are less likely to attract a mate. Thus goes the argument against constant and incessant masturbation.

Tin-Man's picture
ATTENTION!... ATTENTION IN

ATTENTION!... ATTENTION IN THE DEBATE ROOM!... Ladies and gentlemen, it is with great awe and wonder that I make the following announcement!.... *dramatic drum-roll*...... On this date, June 27, 2019, I have stumbled upon undeniable proof that there IS a god!... *taking long drink from bottle*.... And it is delicious!

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
LogicFTW's picture
I wonder if its made from

I wonder if its made from "sweet" baby jesus parts?

If it is part chocolate, part peanut butter, does that mean parts of jesus was made of peanut butter and chocolate?

No wonder people are always trying to "eat the body of christ" in their religious ceremonies. Someone is playing a cruel joke tho, cause they are just cheap tasteless wafers! I demand chocolate and peanut butter! If they gave that out maybe I would go to church once in a while when ever I got a craving for sweet baby jesus parts?

rat spit's picture
“Stick out your tongue and

“Stick out your tongue and accept the body of Christ”

Porn!!! Proof!!! Proof by Porn!!!

LogicFTW's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Doing a response at end of thread to end the nesting of replies occurring here.

That is pretty close to zero possibility. Most theists I know are not that certain. How can you be so certain?

I spent years looking at the evidence and arguments from both sides. I started off not certain at all, when I was a teenager, I was uncertain enough that I would never "test" god. Like shouting: "if you are real "god" strike me down with a lighting bolt when it was already thundering and lightening. Now I have zero fear of shouting such things.

Then after years of searching for answers the answer came back very powerfully. The god idea was created by humans, (instead of the other way around of a god creating humans.) And the evidence for this is simply overwhelming. Just like the evidence that a winning billion dollar powerball ticket will NOT be floating into my hand in the next 5 seconds is overwhelming.

Perhaps another way to describe it that is more relevant:
I am making up a god, let's call it the: unicorn god that farts rainbows. How certain are you that god is not real? Pretty certain right, especially considering I just stated I made it up? That is roughly inline with out certain I am I do not believe your god concept.

What do you mean by "I was very sheltered from religions, just like you are for most all religions but one".

Exactly what I said. I was sheltered from religions in a lot of ways, my parents did not go on and on about it, I did not go to church once a week, (or more,) and the area I was raised in was mostly secular in that, unless you seeked out religious folks, it mostly was hidden away and not talked about much, (especially to a kid.) And I say you were likely raised the exact same way for most all religions save the one you believe in, and possibly maybe 1-2 others. (Parents that believe slightly different things always remains a possibility.) The statement was a play on the popular atheist statement that goes along the lines of: A theist is an atheist, except: atheist reject one more god then theist do. (All gods but their own for most theist.) Which is also a play on one of my favorite atheist quote, badly paraphrased here: "Explain to me why you reject all other god ideas other than your own, and those same reasons you use I can use to explain why I reject yours."

What would you expect to see if prayer did work?

I would expect to see a particular group, (that got the supposed "god" guess right,) to have at least slightly elevated above the normal baseline of random chance. Like if we did censuses world wide, we would find a particular religious group that lived healthier, happier, more succesful lives, with less calamity and disaster befalling them. As well as structures dedicated to god if this "god" cared at all about places of worship/holiness. Something measurable, something that shows hey this group of people that pray in this particular way to this particular god has less cancer, less heart disease, less catastrophic loss of loved ones, less natural disasters, less war, etc etc etc. Something statistically relevant over pure noise random chance. If there is zero gain for prayer beyond "feel good" feelings, why pray, certainly for others? Why not just wish people well instead of praying to some invisible sky daddy to make things better?

At 7.5 billion people even a 10% increase over random chance would be easy to spot due to the sample pools being so large and so far we got... NOTHING of the sort. If we did it would be world wide news, everyone would convert to whatever religion that happened to be. Even I would consider possibly subscribing to that religion if "earnest prayer" done right gave me a 10% or greater boost above random chance for me.

Seriously what is the point of prayer beyond "good feelings?"

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Jo's picture
@ LogicFTW

@ LogicFTW

Thank you for fixing the nesting. I am still learning this blogging on forums, or whatever it is I am doing.

"I spent years looking at the evidence and arguments from both sides. I started off not certain at all, when I was a teenager, I was uncertain enough that I would never "test" god. Then after years of searching for answers the answer came back very powerfully".

Your quest, as I quoted above, sounds a lot like mine. With one major difference. I came to a very different conclusion.
Why is one conclusion logical, sound, and enlightened and the other risible?

Your farting unicorn analogy is a common one used by atheists but is not a good analogy. Your God does not fit with what is observed and experienced. It does not explain anything. It does not address any of the big important questions humans tend to ask. It does not make sense of the world and life in general.

If God is a lie, than what is the truth? What is life all about? Blind happenstance with no purpose or meaning? Even our thoughts are just electro-chemical reactions "full of sound a fury but signifying nothing?" I think you mentioned once about the nobility and goodness of people. Does the goodness and nobility point you towards God, Or towards blind happenstance. How can blind happenstance be good or noble? How can blind happenstance be love and beauty?

"Seriously what is the point of prayer beyond "good feelings?""
People often equate God with some sort of Santa Claus. Make you list, check it twice, be a good boy, and you get your wish granted. That is evidenced in the "why doesn't prayer work" question.
If God answered prayer by making those who pray at least 10% better than those who don't. As you recognize, even atheists would pray. If someone married you just for what they could get out of it, how would that affect the relationship. Would you want to be married to someone who did not like you, or care about you, but liked the gifts?

That brings me to my main point. I think atheists, and even theists, often miss the purpose of prayer and of God's purpose.
It is about God revealing himself to us and about our relationship with him. Those are the two main themes in the Bible. It is also the primary purpose of prayer. Yes, God does bless and answer prayers. But often it is only known or evidenced to the one who is praying. Similar to talking with your spouse. You do get a lot out of the relationship, but it is more about loving her and wanting to communicate with her, than what she is going to get you for Christmas. It is about getting to know the person and understanding them, than on what you are getting out of the conversation.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jo

@ Jo

Similar to talking with your spouse. You do get a lot out of the relationship, but it is more about loving her and wanting to communicate with her, than what she is going to get you for Christmas. It is about getting to know the person and understanding them, than on what you are getting out of the conversation.

My spouse has never commanded me to commit genocide, infanticide, collect foreskins, stone children or be a misogynistic racist. She has expressed a desire to see my blood on occasions, but, already she is more moral and loving than your 'god'.

Also I can see her, touch her, and have a genuine conversation and even a disagreement with her, already she is more able than your god(s).

Does the goodness and nobility point you towards God, Or towards blind happenstance. How can blind happenstance be good or noble? How can blind happenstance be love and beauty?

Stoning children,homophobia, abusing a woman, calling her a dog, telling people to hate their sisters, fathers and mothers....hmmmm all that love and beauty....you have a point.

LogicFTW's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Why is one conclusion logical, sound, and enlightened and the other risible?

While I would not use the word "enlightened" but, to me, one is based on real world testable, repeatable evidence open to scrutiny and revision as new information is found, the other is not. We humans rely on separating fact from fiction to survive, something we do every day, the better we are at it, in general the more successful we are at life. I think even you could agree, if you applied the standard of evidence and reality for the various god ideas to everything in your life, you would not survive very long and could be easily taken advantage of.

Your farting unicorn analogy is a common one used by atheists but is not a good analogy.

I did a short analogy. The point I was trying to make was: I could assign all the same attributes theist use to rationalize their god into existence, to my unicorn idea except the popularity part, and we already well know that is a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum. I could say my "god" is outside space and time, and my god is all powerful/knowing, works in mysterious ways but has a grand plan. Then I write a book about it, call it the holy book inspired by the unicorn god, and my made up god idea will be just as "evidenced" as your god is. This SHOULD be a huge problem for you, for any theist, that their god idea is just talk. Nothing but talk, and humans are fully capable of creating and believing in fiction as we all should be very aware of.

Your God does not fit with what is observed and experienced.

Neither does yours, or any other "god" I have heard of (unless they seriously bend the accepted definition of god)

If God is a lie, than what is the truth? What is life all about? Blind happenstance with no purpose or meaning?

We don't know for sure. Yeah it sucks, but sometimes the correct answer is we don't know. Maybe followed by: "but here is what we DO know. I get that the unknown is scary, and that the possibility that life may have no purpose or meaning is terrifying to a lot of folks, but just because we do not understand it or fear these ideas does not make an unevidenced god idea the "answer." It makes the god ideas more like a comfort blankie like a small child would use.

Does the goodness and nobility point you towards God, Or towards blind happenstance.

How about the need for humans to work together to survive and thrive, obviously there are other less desirable traits as well, anger, envy, hatred etc. Not a perfect system, but why does god get credit for the warm pleasant stuff but no mention of the bad? God is all good but we humans are/can be bad? What kind of messed up double standard is that by your supposed "god" idea?

People often equate God with some sort of Santa Claus. Make you list, check it twice, be a good boy, and you get your wish granted.

Okay so you explained what you think prayer does not do, but failed to explain what prayer does do. Is it supposed to do nothing other then make people "feel" good for a little bit?

If someone married you just for what they could get out of it, how would that affect the relationship.

Just about everyone marries because of what they can "get out of it" the only exceptions I can think of are the ones forced to marry by parents etc. These victims are usually women, and usually due in large part to a religion. I married my wife expecting love back, companionship, someone that cares about me, and most of all I love her and want to be around her. If she stopped loving me, stopped being my companion in life, I would be devastated, but I also would not married to her anymore, (I certainly would try very hard to fix it first however.)

It is about God revealing himself to us and about our relationship with him.

Then why do people say stuff like: "I will pray for you." or "I pray for rain tomorrow" or to do well on a test, etc etc etc? Are these people wrong? How does a mute god that never reveals himself supposed to have a relationship with people through prayer? Are people not talking to god when they pray? If they are, do you agree it is a 1 sided conversation and the person might as well be talking to a wall? Why is prayer so important to so many religions?

Yes, God does bless and answer prayers. But often it is only known or evidenced to the one who is praying.

How does god answer prayers if the only evidence is to the one that prayed? How does that work? A guy prays to be cured of inoperable late stage cancer, but only the person who prayed has evidence god answered the prayer? Then the person dies of cancer a few weeks later? Did god do or achieve anything that talking to another human person could not do that can actually answer back? I am still at: what is the point of prayer beyond good feelings? Remember there are some religions out there that dedicate a dozen hours a week to pure prayer. Would you think those people are fools wasting there time? Especially since it is not the same religion as yours even if it is similar in lots of ways?

Similar to talking with your spouse.

Uh... it is? My wife actually answers me, I can reach out and give her a hug, she can give me a back massage after I get home from a long day etc. I do not think it is similar to talking to my wife at all. I would never compare my wife to an invisible, completely unevidenced sky daddy that can't/wont talk back and does not do anything... at all.
 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Jo's picture
@ Logic FTE

@ Logic FTE

Sorry, just getting back to your post.

"one is based on real world testable, repeatable evidence open to scrutiny and revision as new information is found, the other is not."
Is there repeatable evidence open to scrutiny that there is no God? I think you have to look at it both ways.

"humans are fully capable of creating and believing in fiction as we all should be very aware of."
I am keenly aware of this but it cuts both ways.
A person could believe in God because they are delusional.
A person could not believe in God because they are in denial.

It seems obvious to me that the Bible is divinely inspired.
It seems obvious to you that is fiction created by humans.
Everyone tends to think they are the rational, objective, and reasonable ones.
But how much of what either of us has concluded is as certain as we feel it is?

"Not a perfect system, but why does god get credit for the warm pleasant stuff but no mention of the bad? God is all good but we humans are/can be bad? What kind of messed up double standard is that by your supposed "god" idea?"
That is not what I meant. I am not giving God credit for the good and humans for the bad. I was presenting the goodness and nobility of humans as of evidence of God. How could blind happenstance produce something noble and good?

Responses to your questions on prayer.
People often say they will pray for you when they mean they care about you, wish they could help, and they wish the best for you.
If a person has a medical condition, for example, that the Doctors are doing all they can. The sick person does not need money or help, so often people will say they will pray for them. It is the only thing left they can do for them. Kind of like asking our rich and very well connected Uncle to help someone. You don't know if he can or will, but it is sure nice of you to ask him.

Prayer is making requests, enhancing the relationship, venting to someone who cares and understands, receiving counsel and helping in our understanding of life. God does answer, give hugs, and comfort us. I have experienced this as have millions of others .
I can't say for sure why this is not the case for you, but here are a couple of possibilities.
I am sure you know the story in I Kings 19 where Elijah looks for God to speak to him in the wind, the fire, or the earthquake, but he speaks instead in a soft gentle voice. Often people want a grand demonstration of God, but he wants a quiet conversation. He doesn't scream at us.
And just to be clear, neither do either of our wives. :-)
Another reason may be that you have already told him what you think of him and so he doesn't feel you are open to hearing from him.
"an invisible, completely unevidenced sky daddy that can't/wont talk back and does not do anything... at all."
Would you want to talk to somebody who felt that way about you?
But I am pretty sure he is still trying to communicate with you.

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