Rule 34 and Proof of God

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Sapporo's picture
@Jo

@Jo

The word used to described Mary was not "virgin": https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)#.22Like_a_virgin.2C_touched_for_the_very_first_time....22

But at least we are in agreement about the most important thing (i.e. Mary not being a perpetual virgin).

Jo's picture
@ Sapporo

@ Sapporo

I dojn't think your reference supports Mary not being described as a virgin. Here is what it says:
"The original text said a young woman ("almah" usually means "young woman" but can also mean "virgin") would give birth; the passage was translated using the Greek word "parthenos" (which can mean "young woman" but usually means "virgin")."

Mary described herself as a virgin.

LogicFTW's picture
This conversation illustrates

This conversation illustrates a huge problem with 2000 year old religious ideas.

We can guess with trying to translate 2000 year old writings, but who really knows what the original author(s) meant?

I can tell you, I see zero sign of some greater intelligence having any sort of role whatsoever in these writings. If anything, these writings very well correlate to what a few rich/powerful humans thought and what was important to them 1000 to 2000 years ago.

Jo's picture
@ Logic FTW

@ Logic FTW

"We can guess with trying to translate 2000 year old writings, but who really knows what the original author(s) meant?"

Does that apply to all writings from 2,000 years ago, or just the Bible?

What would be a sign that a greater intelligence had a role in writing the Bible?

Tin-Man's picture
@Jo Re: "What would be a

@Jo Re: "What would be a sign that a greater intelligence had a role in writing the Bible?"

Just taking a stab here, but I would say having the bible actually sound like it was written by a greater intelligence would probably be a good sign.

LogicFTW's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Does that apply to all writings from 2,000 years ago, or just the Bible?

All writings, I would expect all writings written 2000 years ago to reflect the thoughts and abilities etc of people that wrote them 2000 years ago, and all these writings will be difficult to properly translate.

I will throw in, that the various religious text, have it even worse, as they have had countless revisions, edits, translations, all of which no matter how careful they are, run the risk of putting these editors and translators mistakes and biases and needs placed in them instead of simple honest translations. Even if the translations were somehow perfect, the fears, needs, desires, education and nay entire way of life was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then.

Ever have to read shakespeare in school? A common one I remember is Romeo And Juliet, and I remember the teacher having to teach us what "beware the ides of march" meant. Because we today have zero cultural reference to that. Without explanation that term is meaningless to us today. And Romeo and Juliet is not supposed to be some rule book on how to do life and what to expect after it.

What would be a sign that a greater intelligence had a role in writing the Bible?

A sign of greater intelligence? Well an easy one would be conveying "information" or rules that stand the test of time. Religions have muddled the issue a lot, but I think we can agree that just about all religions at their core, say their holy text is "divinely inspired." If this all powerful god wanted to convey information, why not do it in a way that would stand the test of time?

I am no god, but even I can think of a dozen ways to far better to convey instructions, information and rules then divinely inspiring some humans for a few years to "write" a book a thousand plus years ago, at a time when I would say at least 75% of the population could not read or write, let alone even access such information.

Again all this history and explanation of god has 2000 year old human fingerprints all over it, it makes zero sense a super intelligent god would want to convey information this way, it makes a HUGE amount of sense that people thousands of years ago wrote it and "claimed" that it was inspired by god.

Everyone should challenge information presented without evidence, and this should be doubly so for something based on something written over a thousand years ago. The skeptic meter should be maxed out at 10/10 for this stuff.

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Sapporo's picture
Jo: Mary described herself as

Jo: Mary described herself as a virgin.

Good point.

NewSkeptic's picture
Mary's Father: Mary, you've

Mary's Father: Mary, you've been spending way too much time with that goat herder lately.

Mary: His name is Joseph father, and he's wonderful

Mary's Father: You're 12 freaking years old, you should be spending your time with your mother hauling water from the stream and cooking and cleaning.

Mary: Oh Father, you are so negative first century.

Mary's Father: Mary, turn sideways

Mary: wha-wha-wha why Father?

Mary's Father: Mary, just do it or I won't spare the rod.

Mary: (turning sheepishly) Oh Daddy!

Mary's Father: You little whore! Where is that goat herder son of a bitch. I'm gonna bury my hot poker us his ass (Editor's note: not seeing the humor here)

Mary: (thinking quickly) Bu,,uh..uht Daddy, Joseph and I have not, you know, been with each other, maybe a bit of heavy petting but that was it. It was, it was, uh, the Holy Spirit, yeah that's it, it was the Holy Spirit!

Mary's Father: The Holy what!? Don't feed my a line of bullshit Mary, I wasn't born yesterday.

Mary: The Holy Spirit Daddy, you know, part of the Holy Trinity. Co-equal and both together with and separate from God the Father.

Mary's Father: The what? Stop with the Jibberish. You expect me to believe that crap.

Mary: It's not poo-poo Daddy. The Holy Spirit came to me in a dream and told me that I was chosen to deliver the Son of God and his name shall be Emmanuel. He will be the third part of the Trinity and he will forgive all of our sins. Isn't that wonderful!

Mary's Father: Stop with the lies Mary. I'm going to skin that bastard.

Mary: But Daddy, I'M A VIRGIN!

Randomhero1982's picture
You can Google flat earth,

You can Google flat earth, doesn't make it a fact...

....unless you're bereft of any cognitive abilities and enjoy the taste of crayons....

rat spit's picture
And what about flat earth

And what about flat earth porn? If it exists, then there is pron of it (rule # 34). Any links? *slurping the drool back into my mouth*

David Killens's picture
Geez rat spit, is 98% of your

Geez rat spit, is 98% of your brain devoted to sex and porn?

rat spit's picture
Well. I do have a penis

Well. I do have a penis fetish. I will admit that I find the penis to be a fascinating bodily appendage. But, as a rule, I don’t watch porn and I don’t masturbate. So, yes - 98% of my brain has a craving for the “forbidden”.

Let’s take this thread down another direction.

Now, apparently, there’s no evidence that masturbation reduces testosterone levels. However there is evidence that masturbation reduces androgen receptors in the brain. This shares a connection with sexual pheromones.

In other words, those who incessantly masturbate are less likely to attract a mate. Thus goes the argument against constant and incessant masturbation.

Tin-Man's picture
ATTENTION!... ATTENTION IN

ATTENTION!... ATTENTION IN THE DEBATE ROOM!... Ladies and gentlemen, it is with great awe and wonder that I make the following announcement!.... *dramatic drum-roll*...... On this date, June 27, 2019, I have stumbled upon undeniable proof that there IS a god!... *taking long drink from bottle*.... And it is delicious!

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
LogicFTW's picture
I wonder if its made from

I wonder if its made from "sweet" baby jesus parts?

If it is part chocolate, part peanut butter, does that mean parts of jesus was made of peanut butter and chocolate?

No wonder people are always trying to "eat the body of christ" in their religious ceremonies. Someone is playing a cruel joke tho, cause they are just cheap tasteless wafers! I demand chocolate and peanut butter! If they gave that out maybe I would go to church once in a while when ever I got a craving for sweet baby jesus parts?

rat spit's picture
“Stick out your tongue and

“Stick out your tongue and accept the body of Christ”

Porn!!! Proof!!! Proof by Porn!!!

LogicFTW's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Doing a response at end of thread to end the nesting of replies occurring here.

That is pretty close to zero possibility. Most theists I know are not that certain. How can you be so certain?

I spent years looking at the evidence and arguments from both sides. I started off not certain at all, when I was a teenager, I was uncertain enough that I would never "test" god. Like shouting: "if you are real "god" strike me down with a lighting bolt when it was already thundering and lightening. Now I have zero fear of shouting such things.

Then after years of searching for answers the answer came back very powerfully. The god idea was created by humans, (instead of the other way around of a god creating humans.) And the evidence for this is simply overwhelming. Just like the evidence that a winning billion dollar powerball ticket will NOT be floating into my hand in the next 5 seconds is overwhelming.

Perhaps another way to describe it that is more relevant:
I am making up a god, let's call it the: unicorn god that farts rainbows. How certain are you that god is not real? Pretty certain right, especially considering I just stated I made it up? That is roughly inline with out certain I am I do not believe your god concept.

What do you mean by "I was very sheltered from religions, just like you are for most all religions but one".

Exactly what I said. I was sheltered from religions in a lot of ways, my parents did not go on and on about it, I did not go to church once a week, (or more,) and the area I was raised in was mostly secular in that, unless you seeked out religious folks, it mostly was hidden away and not talked about much, (especially to a kid.) And I say you were likely raised the exact same way for most all religions save the one you believe in, and possibly maybe 1-2 others. (Parents that believe slightly different things always remains a possibility.) The statement was a play on the popular atheist statement that goes along the lines of: A theist is an atheist, except: atheist reject one more god then theist do. (All gods but their own for most theist.) Which is also a play on one of my favorite atheist quote, badly paraphrased here: "Explain to me why you reject all other god ideas other than your own, and those same reasons you use I can use to explain why I reject yours."

What would you expect to see if prayer did work?

I would expect to see a particular group, (that got the supposed "god" guess right,) to have at least slightly elevated above the normal baseline of random chance. Like if we did censuses world wide, we would find a particular religious group that lived healthier, happier, more succesful lives, with less calamity and disaster befalling them. As well as structures dedicated to god if this "god" cared at all about places of worship/holiness. Something measurable, something that shows hey this group of people that pray in this particular way to this particular god has less cancer, less heart disease, less catastrophic loss of loved ones, less natural disasters, less war, etc etc etc. Something statistically relevant over pure noise random chance. If there is zero gain for prayer beyond "feel good" feelings, why pray, certainly for others? Why not just wish people well instead of praying to some invisible sky daddy to make things better?

At 7.5 billion people even a 10% increase over random chance would be easy to spot due to the sample pools being so large and so far we got... NOTHING of the sort. If we did it would be world wide news, everyone would convert to whatever religion that happened to be. Even I would consider possibly subscribing to that religion if "earnest prayer" done right gave me a 10% or greater boost above random chance for me.

Seriously what is the point of prayer beyond "good feelings?"

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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