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Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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A reference to evidence that it already happened.
@ Apollo
It happened.
But a lot of scientific teams and theoretical physicists are working hard on developing tools, examining present data, and formulating new concepts in order to explore pre-big bang conditions.
There is the possibility that the topology of time is so counterintuitively non-linear that we are unable to grasp it properly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chsLw2siRW0
Unlike religion that makes an assertion and the lock it in place without any proper examination or evolution, science at times is two steps forward, one step back. Science can make mistakes, but it's very nature makes it self-correcting. And at present, there is no cheap and easy way to resolve this cosmic puzzle.
Personally, I am confident that we shall pry this mystery open, but it may not happen in my lifetime, it may take millennium.
This is the opposite of religion where every answer is basically "god did it", and that closes the conversation.
@Apollo
https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.01589
Apollo: Do you even listen to the crap you spew?
In February-March 1616, the Catholic Church issued a prohibition against the Copernican theory of the earth's motion. This led later (1633) to the Inquisition trial and condemnation of Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) as a suspected heretic, which generated a controversy that continues to our day.Feb 26, 2016
https://www.google.com/search?q=Copernicus+and+the+church&oq=Copernicus+...
According to most scholars, Newton was Arian, not holding to Trinitarianism. As well as being antitrinitarian, Newton allegedly rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul, a personal devil and literal demons. Although he was not a Socinian he shared many similar beliefs with them.
Definition of Socinian. : an adherent of a 16th and 17th century theological movement professing belief in God and adherence to the Christian Scriptures but denying the divinity of Christ and consequently denying the Trinity.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Socinian&oq=Socinian&aqs=chrome..69i57j0...
TROLL!
Copernicus, born 1473, was not persecuted by the church. He was a respected member and canon.
Galileo, born 1564, almost 100 years after Copernicus, did get into a conflict with the Pope. SAdly, he was apparently put under house arrest. Your bombast and bluster that the Pope to this day rejects the views of Copernicus is baloney.
Your claim that I said Newton was a Trinitarian is unevidenced. If you read his scientific writings, which apparently you haven't, he clearly believed in God. Theists don't have to be trinitarian.
Who cares about trinitarian, Socinian, and so on? Just read Newton, and it will be clear, he was a theist.
@ Apollo
"Copernicus, born 1473, was not persecuted by the church. He was a respected member and canon."
Although tendrils of his position slowly leaked out to the church, he took care to present his position as pure speculation, he never challenged the position of the Earth-Sun during his lifetime. He was in fear of criticism and retaliation. Only on his death bed did he proceed to finish De revolutionibus orbium coelestium. It was published after his death.
Galileo was a prick, known as being confrontational and abrasive. Although brilliant on many matters, his arrogance led him to believe he would emerged untouched from revealing his theory.
@Apollo: RE: "Science studies the natural processes that God created." Ha ha ha ha ha ha ..... God must be an idiot.
You Said: "Atheist claims that science explains everything is just a faith."
You obviously have no understanding of Atheism and even less of Science. If you are a part of the natural process God created, the human race is doomed. Do you even know how ignorant you sound? Science builds models and searches for explanations. It does not "PROVE" anything.
RE: "Science is about proving how god's creation works?? " Can you demonstrate your assumption in any way shape or form. Show us how god created anything.
Cognostic wrote, "Science builds models and searches for explanations. It does not "PROVE" anything."
I agree.
I don't recall writing that science proves how God's creation works. Apparently you added the word "proves" and then quoted me as if I wrote it, not you. You are funny.
@ Old Man Shouts
I noticed that it is Atheists on this post who claim there is a conflict between science and Theists.
The Theist think there is no conflict.
It is a frequent observation of mine that Atheist like to juxtapose science and God.
Why is that?
Do you see them as in competition or in conflict?
Can we not have both?
Has science superseded God?
Can science answer all questions about God?
Here are some quotes that address the issue.
“There can never be any real opposition between religion and science; for the one is the complement of the other." Max Planck
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.” Sir Isaac Newton
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.” Lord William Kelvin
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ – cannot hear the music of the spheres.” Albert Einstein
Good quotes Jo. You are apparently well read, and not overly steeped in atheist scripture.
Jo does not identify as an atheist.
@ Jo
Science only conflicts with religion when theists and their ancient texts make claims that are unequivocally wrong.
Science is NOT in the business of proving religion wrong. It happens that Bronze age peoples did not have the sophistication to test their guesses about origins, insects, origins of man, breeding of cattle.
Now we do.
Science does not "complement religion" science is indifferent to religion. Only the religious jump up in arms at the proven idea of evolution. Only theists maintain that because their ancient text says so that cattle breed to the color of sticks they see. Only Religion gets the number of legs on an insect wrong.
Science has NOTHING to do with those idiocies. Science, by way of the scientific method has incidentally proven them wrong while pursuing other, worthwhile, relevant tasks.
Religion is entirely incidental to technology and science. Only theists get their knickers in a knot over scientific discoveries.
Religion is largely irrelevant to modern man. It is used only as vehicle to inspire political unrest or support, for seeking money, for allowing pedophiles and others to prey upon the vulnerable.
@ Old Man Shouts
I agree, but think there are many Atheist who disagree with your statements.
"Science is NOT in the business of proving religion wrong."
"...science is indifferent to religion."
@ jo
but think there are many Atheist who disagree with your statements.
Atheists can be wrong you know. The difference is as an individual I will readily admit errors in historical fact or reasoning. Thiests, including you Jo, will uphold a fantastical story in their texts even when it is evidently wrong.
1. Old man wrote,
"Science only conflicts with religion when theists and their ancient texts make claims that are unequivocally wrong.
Science is NOT in the business of proving religion wrong."
you are on the right track there.
2. I'm a theist and I believe in evolution. Darwin was a theist. Apparently, due to the untimely death of his daughter, he later questioned theism. Reportedly an associate of his wrote to him and asked directly if he was now an atheist. His reply was "no". He said he wasn't sure, and agnostic was a more appropriate description of his stance. In any case, when he formulated his theory he was a theist. There is no requirement that theists disbelieve in evolution.
3. I'm a theist and I'm delighted by many scientific discoveries and technologies.
4. I'm skeptical that belief in God will die out. As science matures, its plausible that belief in a creator God will be enhanced.
@ Apollo
"I'm skeptical that belief in God will die out."
Religion requires ignorance to survive. And sadly, there will always be ignorant people and communities. I am saddened to accept that religion will never die, but I hope and am confident that eventually it will eventually be categorized with other woo woo beliefs, like astrology. It definitely will not happen in the next thousand years, but each year that passes, people become more educated and enlightened and religion will fade away, like a herpes sore.
Mankind is evolving and humanity is improving. Religion is not part of that process.
This looks like bigotry.
You are selecting items according to your subjective bias.
In the secular world there has been much sexual abuse: public school teachers are often caught in illegal sexual relations with students. Frontline recently had a documentary about a doctor in remote American hospitals sexually abusing child patients. even though the hospital admin knows about it, it went on for many years.
Of course you wouldn't mention that due to your bigotry.
Too, you are selecting Fundamentalist theists for their ancient and mistaken perspective. You don't talk about other theists who are not fundamentalist. Again, this is due to your bigotry.
Apollo
Bigoted? Yes I am. I am a bigot where the systematic cover up of pedophilia is concerned. I am a fucking bigot where the wholesale murder of babies is concerned. Yes I am fucking bigot where organised rings of pedophiles are running orphanages and schools. Where those in charge ignore the screams and protests and even transfer offenders from place to place to avoid detection. Yep, if that's what you want to call me, yes, i am a fucking bigot.
The examples you used about teachers came to light very quickly no institutional cover up or defence, if there were I would be bigoted against that organisation, like I am against the hospital you quoted., Is that clear enough for you, you fucking clown?
you are selecting Fundamentalist theists for their ancient and mistaken perspective.
Nope, all religious organisations have the same motivation. Catholic, Pentecostal, fundies, your mob....Money, Land, and rules. If you want to cherry pick your texts, fine. You want to apply different meanings to obviously worded texts, also fine. You are still infected with the disease of the middle ages that killed more people than the plague.
A sophisticated version of "No True Scotsman" will not cut it with me. Muppet.
Yep.
And we have to note that atheists masquerading as clergy blur the lines between what is secular and what is not.
This is not a no true Scotsman fallacy. www.clergyproject.org has hundreds and hundreds of atheists who state quite openly that they are/were pretending to be Christian pastors/priests.
So it's not me saying they weren't 'true' Christians. They are saying it themselves.
@Lion IRC
And how many clergy is there in the world? I would guess well over 1 million.
A few hundred "atheist" masquerading as being christian pastor/priest , (and how many of those were accused of sexual abuse?)
100 to 1 million, that is 1 in 10,000. By every measure, that would make zero statistical difference in the overall numbers, and that assuming their is any way to show any correlation at all on "atheist" somehow skewing the results of a VERY real problem of sexual abuse in the church.
And how can you prove, in the rare case that an "atheist masquerading as a pastor/priest" was an atheist all along? Perhaps the church, protecting their own interest stated the person was an atheist? Or leaned on the person? How would you know?
I never believed those 'atheists in prison' demographics either.
They are claimed to be incredibly low, but atheists in prison would have a huge motive to pretend otherwise.
Anyway, Apollo's point about secular child abuse goes to the matter of proportion/perspective.
50,000+/- cases of clergy child abuse since the 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's...
Yep. That's disgusting.
But there's more than 300,000 cases of child abuse in one a single year outside the church (not counting abortion.)
Speaking of abortion...
Old Man Shouts... wrote:
I don't doubt that for a minute.
@ Lion
You really are a fucking idiot are you not...." atheist clergy" so what if they were, it was the CHURCH heirarchy that covered it up for many years, in a VERY organised fashion.
The babies being murdered were throughout catholic orphanages the most prominent cases were discovered in Ireland recently with more than 200 babies found buried in the cellars and grounds.
That is not a blastocyst, or even a fetus...babies and infants murdered by priests and Nuns over a period of years.
Yeh, way to go fucking smartarse.
Your shouty, rude abusive ad hominems and non-sequiturs don't disguise the fact that you haven't addressed my point.
This isn't really a 'debate' forum is it.
Abusing children and the wholesale murder of babies is evil.
Now, wave goodbye to your little strawman. Bye. All gone now.
Someone who says "I am not a Scotsman" isn't a true Scotsman are they. They aren't a Scotsman - period.
And an atheist masquerading as a pastor or priest isn't a true Christian.
A bank robber disguised as a nun isn't evidence for a conspiracy theory that nuns are running a crime syndicate.
So your accusation @Apollo about the NTS fallacy is also well and truly flushed down the toilet.
@ Lion
"Your shouty, rude abusive ad hominems and non-sequiturs don't disguise the fact that you haven't addressed my point.
This isn't really a 'debate' forum is it."
Nope as you have amply demonstrated with your sly attempts at reversal of the burden of proof, attempts to strawman, and outright defense of indefensible. Not to mention your blatant hand waving away of the heinous crimes that were covered up by your own church.
Your problem is that we have all come across slime ball tactics like this, you will not admit to the utter corruption exposed in many churches but most of all in the Roman Catholic Church by way of Royal commissions in Australia, Investigations in Ireland the thousands of prosecutions of Priests, Bishops and Cardinals worldwide for their part in the conspiracy to cover up evidence of abuse and participate in the abuse willingly.
If you will not condemn your church for this behaviour your are complicit in the abuse.
No hand waving or smart arse comments will take that stain from your forehead. You will see it every time you look in the mirror, if you can indeed bear to do so.
You don't need to be a True Scotsman to smell the stench of corruption.
@Old Man Re: Faux Feline
In case you missed it in the other post I made...
1. God Goggles
2. Reading comprehension skills of a garden slug
3. (Which I forgot to add in the other post) Intentionally evasive and integrity-challenged.
Good sir, indeed you have been most valient in your efforts to provide wise and salient knowledge to our dear friend Lyin' Heart. Alas, he has shown his godly armor, his dishonest demeanor, and his fraudulent faith to be impervious to any form of rational persuasion. A truer and more faithful Catholic has never been born. The Pope must surely be proud of his representing the Catholic faith in such a selfless, honorable, and respectable manner. Lion is an absolute credit to his Church.
As I said, Old Man, you have fought the good battle. But it is time to face the cold, hard truth that we mere mortal atheists are no match for Lion and his glorious god. We should retreat to our chambers, lick our wounds, and live to fight another day.
@Tin-Man
"But it is time to face the cold, hard truth that we mere mortal atheists are no match for Lion and his glorious god. We should retreat to our chambers, lick our wounds, and live to fight another day."
If it's all the same to you, I'd rather have a good bowel movement. After reading Lion, Apollo and Relative Truth, I suddenly feel the need
I think old Relative may be a troll. Or a 14 year old boy.
@Cranky: I knew there was a reason I was not participating. Between Lion, Apollo, and the idiotic fog they are tossing about to avoid any real discussion, I just knew I was in over my head, so I left it to the experts. Tin will have another eggnog party soon and you will have all the bowel movements you can stand. I promise!
@ TM
Yes, exchanging posts with "lion" (oops see my post about Captain Cat's solution) sorry, "lurkin" is about as productive as drilling ones forehead with a 1/4" hammer drill. However by keeping him occupied the actual watchers in the shadows are learning how mean spirited and slimey he, and his ilk, are behaving.
I honestly think at the awards he is currently tying with "Jo" for atheist recruiter of the month and in the running for the Annual Award. Joy was in there but got turfed out so is disqualified...
Certainly "lollipop" (avoided a clawmark there) is odds on favourite for the "Hand Waving" award, I cant see even Jo catching up with the sheer volume in so few posts.
@Old Man and Cog
Hey, speaking of Lion Fart, it dawned on me today how incredibly familiar he sounds. Oh, and speaking of incredible, remember that big green hulking Muslim bastard we use to use as a tether ball so many months ago? Hmmmm..... *scratching chin*...
@ Lion IRC
Your assessment of the clergy project seems unjustifiably harsh.
I've known about the clergyproject for quite some time and it was always presented as being a service for lapsed clerics ie those who having once been ardent converted theists became preachers of one sort or other and then lost their faith.
Your accusation suggests they were wilfully deceitful and had been pretending all along.
I did not find anything in the testimonials I read suggesting they had been lying.
Care to modify your statement or at least prove it?
I assume you dont think they were all engaged in covert sexual abuse?
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