I'm an ex-muslim man living in Saudi Arabia. And I wanted to ask a question about should I try to make my friends disbelief in God?
To give more content, what I mean is why should I want them to suffer as I do. Why should I let them loose their faith just to pretend that they believe. Isn't better to let them live a happy lie.
Sorry If I made any spelling error.
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I'm sure English is not your first language so your spelling is fine. Welcome to the forum.
I don't know enough about how atheists are treated in Saudi but don't put yourself at risk.
People pick up on signs much more easily than we realise and word could get out. It's much safer to talk online behind an anonymous identity so maybe that is a safer way to do it but be careful.
Captain crunch
Q: Should I try to spread disbelief among my friends?
A: As nicely as possible, HELL FUCKING NO! Are you an idiot? If I am not mistaken, the punishment for apostasy, or spreading apostasy, in Saudi Arabia is still "death by beheading."
If you do, you had better be DAMNED CAREFUL about to whom you speak.
Remember, atheism is a non-prophet organization that does not need martyrs.
rmfr
First thank you for taking the time. I'm really thankful
The problem is sometime I feel like I have to defend Islam on wrong believe (for example gay rights or women issues even apostate), and I feel like I'm helping Islam to discriminate against people. I don't know if there is a middle ground between attacking or defending Islam. (BTW I started defending Islam after some of my friends find that my ideas are very liberal and as a joke one called me an atheist but I don't think he really meant it)
I have no idea how you would defend Islam on gay rights, apostasy or women's issues. Islam does not need your help to discriminate against people. The middle ground is simply not believing the claims Islam makes.
You do not need to make the assertion "Allah does not exist or Muhammad was not a prophet." to simply not believe, Understand that it is religious claims that have the burden of proof. You need not prove anything.
Imagine you and I are looking at the stars, You tell me that the number of stars are even. (Allah exists) I ask you how you know? Have you counted them? Have you seen this for yourself? How can we believe that until we know for sure. "Important" Notice, I am not saying the number of stars is odd. (Allah does not exist.) I am only stating that the claim, (about Allah) can not be known. This is the middle ground. Atheism is the middle ground. You do not need to rebut religious claims to simply question them, You do not need to take the opposite position. The theist is making the claim and the theist has to demonstrate evidence for his or her claim or it can be rejected.
Your friend called you an atheist and this is extremely typical of closed systems of religious belief. A closed system is one where you are either in the faith and blessed by the God or outside the faith and cursed to hell. To the religious mind, there is no middle ground. "Arakish" one of the members of this site, continually calls these people "Absolutists," They are out there and they are dangerous to you. Please be careful around them I would defend the Quaran too if I had a gun to my head and thought I could live by defending it. (On the other hand, If I knew I would die anyway I would spit in it.) Take care of yourself first.
Arakish I really thankful for your concerns, but I only talking about those liberal Ideas to my closest friends that I know the won't try to harm me.
@ Captain crunch
Phew! Thank goodness for that. Keep yourself safe. That is the first priority, rescinding all others. I kind of know what you are going through. I had to "fake and pretend" being a Christian for about four years just I could get the Pastor and me mom from whooping my ass every Sunday, and to get the other "good Christian" children from beating the shit out of me and raping me. However, I never truly suffered the DANGER that you do. Thus, it will be harder for to "fake and pretend" being a Muslim. And feel for you.
As said, first priority is to keep your self safe.
rmfr
Arakish I'm really thankful for your concerns, but I only talk about those liberal Ideas to my closest friends that I know the won't try to harm me.
@Captain crunch
They may never intend harm, but over time secrets leak out and the wrong person can learn too much about you.
Keep your beliefs in your head and never allow them to leak out past your lips.
You do not have to take this risk, and also place your friends in jeopardy, because there is nothing to gain and everything to lose.
Where I come from a person who acts this way is considered naive and foolish.
I might be foolish or naive but, if at least I can change someone on women right or freedom of speech I would like to try. I'm not going to go against Islam as much I'm going against with the explanation of Islam(I mean by say that Islam don't go against this and that, also I don't)
You are not responsible for what your friends believe or think. Respect your friends and do not try to change what they think or believe. I maintain my friends because I absolutely refuse to talk about religion or politics.
The best way to turn a friend into an enemy is to ...
1) lend or borrow money from them
2) talk politics or religion
... and what is that idiom about loose lips?
rmfr
@Captian Crunch; You make very good points. Sometimes it is better to get along than it is to be right. We actually do have some of the same sorts of situations here in small town America. Things can be rough on anyone coming out as Atheist. Live your life. be kind to your friends, and be kind to yourself.
If you are an atheist, you have probably learned a set of skills that have led you to skeptical thinking and rationality. You have probably learned some of the major fallacies religious people use to justify their beliefs in WooWoo.
The Quaran is scientific because an embryo looks like chewing gum. One of my favorites. It might be okay to challenge such a statement. "Everyone knows an embryo looks like chewing gum. Farmers, goat herders, people who owned chickens or cows all knew this. Premature births happen all the time. This is not evidence of anything." Without outright denying Muhammad or the Quaaran you can still look at some of the claims logically and probably discuss them. "Yea, I heard that before but .....*when you look at the facts, it's not actually a good argument."
In short, RESPECT WHO YOU ARE. You need not push your views on anyone. There are other people like you around and if some of them hear you they may be drawn to you. Just keep things friendly and low key.
Education and reason are the bane of religion, not confrontation. Good luck to you, And when you really want to let off some steam, stop on by and hang out with us filthy heathens for a while. Let us in on the latest Islamic claim so we can educate ourselves.
1, Muhammad was born in Mecca and that's why the Quaran describes Petra and why all early mosques face Petra.
2, There is only one version of the Quaran. He he he he h e,,,,,
etc......
I would love to :)
I advise against it very strongly. You would put your life at risk. I also think that disbelief in a thing doesn't really represent anything in itself: it would be odd to try and "convert" people to disbelief.
It would be best to stick to safe topics in an authoritarian country like Saudi Arabia.
Don't do or say anything that would put you at risk, or in any danger. Beyond that do what your conscience demands.
I know I'm getting off topic but, the only way to change the Islamic world is to challenge small taboos.
Maybe I need create a new debate on how to change the Islamic world with-in.
@Captain crunch, Changing small taboos may be a good thing, but there is a time and place for everything. If you stood on a platform and said the same things as Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Brigitte Gabriel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s) My all time favorite clip. You would not live long. Be careful.
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I think in your situation you could maybe try to talk about different interpretations of the quran that offer greater fairness to people but don't tell anyone you disagree with islam itself.
I heard about one woman from Saudi who is in hiding in Europe because she became an atheist. Her own brother wants to kill her.
This is a tough one, especially within beliefs of faith.
Agree with them. Pressure always creates resistance, so being on the same side as your friend, will put them at ease.
Reframe the inadequacies of islam, in a non threatening way.
Introduce several new solutions to these inadequacies
Always provide a way back to that person's traditional beliefs if the conversation gets heated.
The problem of faith based belief, is that religion is static. You end up with different interpretation of the same doctrine...which leads to conversation, which is good for implanting ideas...however only within a static framework, which is generally a word for word interpretation...which will not change root beliefs significantly.
Should you try to tell your friends about your atheism? No! This is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. They have a death penalty for "apostasy" (deconverting from Islam), and many people in countries like that have been known to turn against people like you and report them to authorities. Don't be a martyr. Unlike the religious, we don't need any more of those. Keep your head down, and if possible, try to emigrate to a safer country to avoid persecution.
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For some reason my brain won't let me lie anymore and I'm not getting very good vibes out of one of my friends. I think I need sometime out of my friends cycle but they are the only people who are keeping me sane. I don't know what the fuck to do.
"BE YOURSELF." If you are rejected by your friends. (THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.) The ones that hang around are the ones worth keeping.
You are pretending to be someone you are not to please others. Imagine for a moment that all of your friends were doing that to you. They were only pretending to be your friends and hiding who they really were. And you, obliviously happy, went about your life assuming you had a lot of good friends.
"Life is real, only then, when I am." (G. I. Gurdjieff)..
That's the problem being myself means death, prison or at least losing everyone I know.
Captain crunch: No it doesn't. You are confusing your ideal self with your real self. If you are ignorant and oblivious to your surroundings, then it means prison or possibly death. No one is telling you to be an idiot.
Do you think I would go to Brunei and insult Islam or the Prophet anywhere where It could be heard. If I had a gun to my head, no you not think I would observe the prayers three times a day. You are not the things you do when you are forced to do them. You are only yourself being forced to do the things you do not want to do. So your choice is clear. Keep doing it and hope that it will change some day. Come up with a plan to escape and do it until you can escape. Wait and hope things will get better. Waiting is the same thing as doing it and hoping for it to change. Got a plan? Why not? Do you imagine complaining will do any good at all? Bowing three times a day would not change who I am. Why do you think it will change you? Sometimes I crawl on the floor and play with the kids. I might be a horse or a monster or even a wrestler. Crawling on the floor does not make me a horse, a monster, or a wrestler. It makes me a good father who is aware of the world around him.