Taking your advise!

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Nyarlathotep's picture
Dan - Its actual infinity

Dan - Its actual infinity (set theory) I'm objecting to, not potential infinity (calculus):

You have rejected calculus several times on this forum. For example: ∞ - ∞ = 0 is a rejection of calculus. Despite you telling us previously that you endorse calculus's handling of infinity. As far as I can tell you are just thrashing around like a wild animal. Which would explain why you seem to contradict yourself with each new "thrashing".

Devans99's picture
Calculus can manage perfectly

Calculus can manage perfectly fine without actual infinity... it just needs potential infinity. People were using calculus for 100s of years just fine without the need to reference Cantor's mad ravings.

I'm surprised you are so pro-infinity, Cantor only included in set theory because he though God was infinite and God was talking to him. A true atheist would be against actual infinity.

Randomhero1982's picture
Oh well that's ok then, why

Oh well that's ok then, why prove something is wrong in such advanced field when you can merely object whilst making such claims as you have...

Randomhero1982's picture
Show us on the doll where

Show us on the doll where Nyar spanked you!

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Random

@ Random

This is the best thread for chuckles and belly laughs....Caotain Cat has deserted my lap in disgust at the noise. Between you, Nyar and TM...I can't .....catch....my....breath.........*whoop* sucks in air*

No more put downs and comments..my heart...nah bugger it carry on you lot. I love it....

Cognostic's picture
ROFLMAO

ROFLMAO

comoke1024's picture
@Dan,

@Dan,

"In order for something to exist, it must start existing. But there is no time from which the particle/entity could start existing."

"Or if the God had a start point in time, there would be an empty stretch of time before him and nothing to cause his existence, which is also impossible"

The only way these two statements can both be true is if God does not exist. You have just disproven the existence of God. Nice! :)

Devans99's picture
My intuition is that God is

My intuition is that God is timeless. Timeless things don't start to exist... they are tenseless... they just ARE.

So yes, I should have qualified the remark above to indicate it refers to things in time. Thanks for pointing that out.

Augustine – “thy years neither come nor go; whereas ours both come and go”

Tin-Man's picture
@Dan Re: "Timeless things

@Dan Re: "Timeless things don't start to exist... they are tenseless... "

Ahhhhhhh.... Like, wow, man. I totally get it now. So, like, what you are saying is that they are just, like, totally relaxed. Far out, dude. Heavy stuff. Like, you know, they just.... *twirling hands in front of face*... like, go with the flow, man. Like, you know, they can't be bothered with all that negativity about yesterday or, like, tomorrow, or all that oppressive time stuff, dude. They just, you know, like, become at peace with the universe. Masters of chill. That's far out, man. Totally....

comoke1024's picture
@Tin-Man, that begs the

@Tin-Man, that begs the question... Just how much weed is behind this post?

Devans99's picture
It's not so far out. In

It's not so far out. In modern physics the photon does not experience time. It travels from A to B but time does not change. So its timeless. So maybe Augustine was right about God being timeless?

Randomhero1982's picture
There is no legitimate

There is no legitimate observer with a photon in special relativity, So any questions regarding what an observer would feel, see or in general 'experience' are really meaningless questions.

Cognostic's picture
https://www.youtube.com/watch
Sheldon's picture
Dan "My intuition is that God

Dan "My intuition is that God is timeless."

What god? My intuition is that your intuition is naught but wishful thinking and assumption.

"Timeless things don't start to exist"

So you're saying timeless unicorns have always existed, good to know. Or is this to be another special pleading fallacy?

comoke1024's picture
You claim that God is

You claim that God is timeless, but I have not seen any evidence that such things do exist? Can you provide an example of a creature that has been observed to be timeless? Or provide evidence that timeless creatures exist?

David Killens's picture
@Dan

@Dan

"My intuition is that God is timeless."

And that is the heart of the matter. You began down this road following your intuition, then attempted bend reality and math to fit your intuition.

Randomhero1982's picture
You have to love how some

You have to love how some naturalistic circumstance cannot possible be the overriding 'cause' for the universe, or any other theory postulated by physics.

Yet, an immeasurable, untestable infinite cosmic mage can be the sole reason.

We often see these claims, but none of the proponents ever demonstrate how they may be wrong and put it to the test, keeping to a truly scientific method.

Sheldon's picture
"You have to love how some

"You have to love how some naturalistic circumstance cannot possible be the overriding 'cause' for the universe, or any other theory postulated by physics.

Yet, an immeasurable, untestable infinite cosmic mage can be the sole reason."

Yes indeed, especially when you consider that we know natural phenomena exist as an objective fact, unlike Dan's unevidenced invisible friend of course.

Randomhero1982's picture
Yes indeed, especially when

Yes indeed, especially when you consider that we know natural phenomena exist as an objective fact, unlike Dan's unevidenced invisible friend of course.

Exactly!

I think what is being proposed is essentially William Lane Craig's interpretation of the Kalam cosmological arguement.

Which even if you concede the premises, it's still a non sequitur.

Sheldon's picture
"I think what is being

"I think what is being proposed is essentially William Lane Craig's interpretation of the Kalam cosmological arguement."

I have said this to Dan more than once. He seems very impressed with arguments that use appeal to ignorance fallacies. Lane Craig even more so, he can barely construct a sentence without ponderinghow everything can possibly exist with his invisible unevidenced deity.

arakish's picture
Dan: "I've decided to take

Dan: "I've decided to take your advise…"

One can only hope.

I need to quit jumping the gun and making a reply to the first thing Someone says. I'll start after this one.

rmfr

arakish's picture
@ Dan

@ Dan

Reference Link

Thanks for all the feedback.

Try to follow it.

I've decided to take your advise and try and get a paper published!

Probably will only get published at AiG, ICR, CSC, CARM, or some other apologetic pseudoscience institute that requires no rigorous peer-review. If your posts are anything like your writings, about the only way you would publish a paper is to self-publish at home, printing copies of it, and passing them out on the streets.

Abstract: With infinite time, we can divide the possible models for the origin universe into deterministic ('Can’t get something from nothing’) and non-deterministic ('Can get something from nothing’). We argue that both possible models lead to contradictions so therefore time must have a start.

To begin, your Abstract is already making fallacious argument. Time does not need nor must have a start to actually exist. Your assumption that infinity cannot exist is your most damning fallacy.

And here is something I have had a RPG character say some 35 years ago. Of course, it is actually ME saying this, but attributing it to a fictional character. And just because I am attributing it to a fictional character in the novel I am writing does NOT mean what I said is also ficitional.

And here is one bet I am willing to take with you. I GUARANTEE most persons here will understand the below without me even having to explain it. You on the other hand, probably will not be able to. Then again, you just may be able to. Maybe surprise me?

An excerpt from a treatise (From the Beginnings of All) written by Franajatal:


First and foremost, one must remember that Kreäsa itself is truly neutral. Kreäsa is neither good nor evil. It is what one does with Kreäsa that determines good or evil. (Kreäsa = that which exists within all things; the power within all.)

Second, to even possess Kreäsa, one must also have none. Confusing, yes. To have Power, one must first have NO Power.

When using Kreäsa, Serikasu enables just as much as it inhibits. (Serikasu = that which binds and restricts.)

That which is least is the same as that which is great. That which is largest is the same as that which is smallest.

Those who seem to be the most inadequate may actually be the most capable.

Those who suffer no limitations may actually be the most ineffectual.

Those who wish to the possess the Kreäsadilmun (ultimate power) should spend their entire lifetime contemplating why they should NOT possess it. And even Eternity itself may not be long enough to discover why. With my creation of the Dilmunbregkreäsa (Ulimate Sword of Power), I have placed in the center of a fractal maze. None who possess a limit on life on Onaviu shall never be able to retrieve this Ultimate Sword of Power, excepting those whom the Sword deems worthy of possessing.

To understand the Kreäsa, one must also have an understanding of Onaviu (that which is) itself. We all know how things come in many differing sizes and varying levels of power.

Now imagine you could shrink in size, say, half your original size. Do this again, and you are now a fourth your original size. Again, an eighth. Now keep doing this ad infinitum. What happens?

Now reverse what you just did. Suppose you grow to twice your original size. Do this again, and you are four times larger. Again, eight times. Now keep doing this ad infinitum. What happens?

Simply, the Kreäsa exists within all things. Kreäsa means “that which exists within all.” Ultimately, it comes from the Lanamaütu of Athanor, Sareylan, and Daryina. (Lanamaütu = the might of into three as one.)

With The Firmament, Sareylan gives ALL things Existence. With Time, Daryina gives ALL things Durance. With The Flame Imperishable, Athanor gives ALL things Life.

It is from having Existence, Durance, and Life from which comes the Kreäsa.

For all things must have Existence, Durance, and Life. Without Existence, it cannot be. Without Durance, it has no duration. Without Life, it is dead. With just one missing, there is none.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now let's put it into a context you may be able to comprehend.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


First and foremost, one must remember that Kreäsa itself is truly neutral. Kreäsa is neither good nor evil. It is what one does with Kreäsa that determines good or evil. (Kreäsa = that which exists within all things; the power within all.)

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ As a matter of fact, EVERYTHING within any cosmos is going to be truly neutral. Our cosmos could not care one way or the other if our species ever came into existence. It also does not care one way or the other if our species were completely annihilated.

Dan, this is one fact you seem truly incapable of comprehending. NOTHING in this vast universe could care less whether you existed or not, whether you came into existence or not. Hell, I have could care less whether you existed or not. Please understand this. I am not wishing harm upon you. The point I am trying to make is the universe could less whether you exist or not, and the universe could care less whether I could care less whether you exist or not. Comprenez-vous encore?

Only those with intelligence can decide what they do with knowledge on whether it is good or evil. If you decide to use some knowledge to harm a person by posting it on all the social networks, that means YOU were the one who was evil. The knowledge itself is truly neutral. It is what YOU do with it that makes it evil or good. Comprenez-vous encore?

Second, to even possess Kreäsa, one must also have none. Confusing, yes. To have Power, one must first have NO Power.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ This is a bit confusing to say the least. I am capable of coprehending it. The problem I suffer is being able to properly describe better than just saying, "To have Something, you must first have Nothing." This is my problem, I cannot put it any simpler. I can complicate the hell out of it by spewing a bunch of mind diarrhea, but I ain't going to do that. As said, I prefer things simple, except for scientific journal papers. Basically, you are just going to have to figure it out on your own, "To have Something, you must first have Nothing."

When using Kreäsa, Serikasu enables just as much as it inhibits. (Serikasu = that which binds and restricts.)

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ This is more simple. The translation of the word "serikasu" basically says it: "that which binds and restricts."

That which is least is the same as that which is great. That which is largest is the same as that which is smallest.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ This is bsaically his way of hiding the very fact where "infinite power" lies. I ain't going to translate it any further.

Those who seem to be the most inadequate may actually be the most capable.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ In other words, those who seem to the more powerless, may actually be the most powerful.

Those who suffer no limitations may actually be the most ineffectual.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ In other words, those who seem to possess limitless power, also seem to be the least capable of wielding.

These two previous statements must taken into context together. For one, the two statements actually state that any omnipotent AND omniscient entity is also the least capable of doing anything except for two things: Create, OR Destroy. In other words, even for an entity such as your spaceless and timeless "god" is only capable of creating a creation, or destroy that creation. Such an entity would NEVER be able to touch its own creation without also completely annihilating that creation upon touching it in any fashion. These two statements also state that one that seems to have absolutely no power whatsoever, may also hold the "ultimate power." Just that without knowledge they would never know. The old "ignorance is bliss" adage. Think Critically about this. If you think hard enough, it will come to you.

Those who wish to the possess the Kreäsadilmun (ultimate power) should spend their entire lifetime contemplating why they should NOT possess it. And even Eternity itself may not be long enough to discover why. With my creation of the Dilmunbregkreäsa (Ulimate Sword of Power), I have placed in the center of a fractal maze. None who possess a limit on life on Onaviu shall never be able to retrieve this Ultimate Sword of Power, excepting those whom the Sword deems worthy of possessing.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ This one is truly simple. If you desire "ultimate/infinite power," then you should truly contemplate why you should NOT have it. Again, Think Critically about this. If you think hard enough, it will come to you.

To understand the Kreäsa, one must also have an understanding of Onaviu (that which is) itself. We all know how things come in many differing sizes and varying levels of power.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ I'll leave this one alone. It truly does not need any further explanation.

Now imagine you could shrink in size, say, half your original size. Do this again, and you are now a fourth your original size. Again, an eighth. Now keep doing this ad infinitum. What happens?

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ Think Critically about this. If you think hard enough, it will come to you.

Now reverse what you just did. Suppose you grow to twice your original size. Do this again, and you are four times larger. Again, eight times. Now keep doing this ad infinitum. What happens?

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ Think Critically about this. If you think hard enough, it will come to you.

Even taken into context together, really think about what is being said in these two statements.

Simply, the Kreäsa exists within all things. Kreäsa means “that which exists within all.” Ultimately, it comes from the Lanamaütu of Athanor, Sareylan, and Daryina. (Lanamaütu = the might of into three as one.)

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ This is just a fictional description of where EVERYTHING comes from. It is true only in the context of the novel I am writing.

With The Firmament, Sareylan gives ALL things Existence. With Time, Daryina gives ALL things Durance. With The Flame Imperishable, Athanor gives ALL things Life.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ A simpler way of looking at these three is: The Firmament = matter, Durance = existence within space-time, and The Flame Imperishable = energy.

It is from having Existence, Durance, and Life from which comes the Kreäsa.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ In other words, you must have all three.

For all things must have Existence, Durance, and Life. Without Existence, it cannot be. Without Durance, it has no duration. Without Life, it is dead. With just one missing, there is none.

• ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ Self-explanatory.

Motivation

There are problems with prime mover / cosmological arguments:

- In the quantum era, cause and effect are under question [1]. Cosmological arguments rely heavily on cause and effect.
- The prime mover argument is inconsistent in that it uses cause and effect to trace back all motion to a single unmoved mover but then says that the unmoved mover is beyond cause and effect.

So there is a need for a cosmological argument that does not rely on cause and effect as an axiom.

True. In only what you have stated. However, you fail to explain why we even NEED any of these explanations. What about explanation you have not thought of yet? Why is yours so special that it should even be considered? Why is your argument worthy of anything other than File 13?

With infinite time, we can break down the possible models of the origin of the universe into two:

1. Matter/energy is created - ‘Can get something from nothing’
2. Matter/energy has always existed - ‘Can’t get something from nothing’

You missed completely. With infinite time, you would have neither of the two. Everything would have just always been.

What you have to do first is prove that "infinite" does not exist when it in FACTS (Formulated Accurately Codified Truth in Science) does exist. It is just not a concept. It actually exists. And quit with the bullshit about the difference of "actual" and "potential" infinity. There is only one infinity, infinity itself. Just because others cannot grasp the concept of infinity/eternity/never-ending/etc., does not mean that everyone cannot grasp said concept. I am one of those capable of knowing infinity/eternity/never-ending/etc. can exist, does exist. The biggest problem with this concept is that no language on Earth has the words to describe it. The only way I can "tell" anyone about how I have grasped the concept of infinity/eternity/never-ending/etc. is through psionic transfer. And that does not exist as far as we know.

I can understand your worthless argument about your Sky Faerie being spaceless and timeless; however, always remember this: "Even if your Sky Faerie is spaceless and timeless outside this realm, then it would leave evidence of its tampering within this realm. Where is that evidence?"

OK. I have had enough. Send your paper off to a science journal. Fuck the god damned philosphy journals. Get your bullshit fantasies peer-reviewed by actual persons who know what they are talking. If you publish anywhere else, you are simply trying to bury your bullshit under megatons of bullshit that philosophy, pseudoscience, and/or apologetic websites have already published. Besides, I know you are too afraid and cowardly to publish in a science journal because you have already seen where we here at AR have completely debunked your bullshit. Just imagine how I am going to treat your paper if it should appear up for peer-review. I'll show it to all my work buddies so we can have a good laugh. Better and more comical than The Big Bang Theory on TV.

I ain't going to hold my breath.

rmfr

EDIT: corrected misspellings

Sheldon's picture
Still no news that Dan has

Still no news that Dan has used physics or maths to evidence a deity? Or that Breezy has falsified evolution.

Whatever is the delay?

Randomhero1982's picture
I think Nyar broke him and

I think Nyar broke him and the chain of events can be adequately explained in one meme below.....

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