The Theist Position
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The theist position?.... *scratching head*.... Uhhh... Not sure. Missionary, maybe?
(Now to go read the other replies...)
Re: Op
...*groan*.... Oh, holy shit. Thank god(s) for my catcher's mask. Just now read the OP. (Responded only to the title with my first post.) The involuntary face palm that occurred would have definitely caused some major damage had I not been wearing it. Even with the mask, though, I still damn-near have a concussion.... *holding sides of head*... Please excuse me while I go get some aspirin.... *stumbling out of room*...
The Theist Position?
Depends on gender and age.
For altar boys, Bend Over.
For grown men, Go Away.
For nuns, Sit Right Here On The Desk Edge.
For females, Go Away.
Now to read other comments.
rmfr
catholicray: "How is this actually different from the atheist position concerning the burden of proof? Seems identical to me."
Someone is still struggling with their comprehension skills. Here they are again.
Agnostic, from the Greek: γνοσι (gnosi) = knowledge;
ενα- [usually shortened to α-] (ena- [usually shortened to a-]) = to be without;
thus, αγνοσι (agnosi) agnostic = to be without knowledge.
I am agnostic in there are many things I do not know. Thus, I am without that knowledge, thus agnostic. Everyone is agnostic to a certain point. I cannot put this any simpler.
Atheist, from the Greek: θεος (theos) = God, Lord, Creator;
ενα- [usually shortened to α-] (ena- [usually shortened to a-]) = to be without;
thus, αθεος (atheos) atheist = to be without God.
However, in today’s terminology, and more accurate, atheism actually means “a lack of or disbelief in any claims for the existence of any deity.”
How about another breakdown?
And here is a definition: sub•stan•ti•ate – verb (used with object), sub•stan•ti•at•ed, sub•stan•ti•at•ing, sub•stan•ti•a•tion; 1) to establish by proof or competent evidence; 2) to give substantial existence to; 3) to affirm as having substance, give body to, strengthen.
FYI: If you keep the entire word εναθεος (enatheos), you have the basis for the English word anathema. Anathema [uh•nath•uh•muh] noun, plural a•nath•e•mas. 1) a person or thing detested or loathed. 2) a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction. 3) a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication. 4) any imprecation of divine punishment. 5) a curse. 6) execration. And everyone of the definitions for anathema has been used by you Religious Absolutists against us atheists.
Can you now at least see the difference?
Theists can use both arguments, fallacious as they are, 1) I believe a deity exists; 2) I do not believe a deity does not exist. Either way, Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat. The burden of proof is still on the theists, regardless.
rmfr
Theism necessarily represents an explicit belief.
Yes but you've taken the argument completely out of order. The foundation is "I do not believe in the non-existence of God".
Time to explain:
Imagine this as a game of Chess it also helps to imagine a closed box which you are trying to figure out what is in it.
Theist Position
I do not believe in the non-existence of God
Allocation of Belief:
99.9% God exists 0.01% God does not exist
I do not believe in the non-existence of Paradoxes
Allocation of Belief
99.9% Paradoxes exist 0.01% Paradoxes do not exist
(Principle of Explosion)
Definition of God:
Omnipotence, etc. (the definition is a paradox)
Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence
Therefore hypothetically God exists and hypothetically God does not exist
Odds going into the wager
99.9% ad infinitum God exists
0.01% ad infinitum God does not exist
Hybrid Pascal's Wager (inverse Pascal's Wager)
I believe God exists
Atheist Position
I do not believe God exists
I do not believe paradoxes exist
(Law of Non contradiction)
Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence
Given the definition
God hypothetically does not exist and God hypothetically exists
Odds going into the wager
99.9% ad infinitum God does not exist
0.1% ad infinitum God exists
Hybrid Pascal's Wager (inverse Pascal's Wager)
I do not believe God exists
I'll leave it there for now.
That is just a fancy way of writing 100%.
@Nyarlathotep
It would be except that
0.1% ad infinitum balances the position
Edit: If you like we can remove the term though but I think it's appropriate to stress the position.
99.999...% = 100%
It isn't that complicated dude.
0.1% ad infinitum ≈ 0.11%
-----------------------------------
That puts you pretty far into crazy pants land.
@Nyarlathotep
I'm prepared to quibble over words until I die your choice. Or are you actually going to say something?
@catholicray
I'm just curious why you chose to write 100% in such a complicated fashion. I'm also curious why you would set up a something like that when the parts add up to more than 100%. That is the thing about numbers, by their very nature, it isn't a semantics argument.
99.999...% isn't close to 100%, it is 100%.
Nyarlathotep: "I'm just curious why you chose to write 100% in such a complicated fashion. I'm also curious why you would set up a something like that when the parts add up to more than 100%. That is the thing about numbers, by their very nature, it isn't a semantics argument. 99.999...% isn't close to 100%, it is 100%."
And adding.
99.99… (ad infinitum) + 0.01… (ad infinitum) > 100.
Or are you not capable of deducing this? I bet Nyar's 8y old (???) niece/nephew could. (Sorry, Nyar, can't remember his/her age.)
rmfr
catholicray: "Or are you actually going to say something?"
Are you? That is the question. Are you ever going to say anything worth more than the brown logs I drop into the toilet?
rmfr
catholicray: "Yes but you've taken the argument completely out of order. The foundation is "I do not believe in the non-existence of God"."
Still trying to pretend we are stupid are you not?
I do not believe in the non-existence of God = I do believe in the existence of God
Same damned thing. Think Critically about it.
rmfr
Notice how Catholicray doesn't answer posts with proper definitions of theism and atheism in them?
@ Talyyn
I know. Every time I have a defined term in any of my posts, he completely ignores them.
Now I know why.
catholicray thinking as he reads a post with a definition: "Nope. Ain't havin' it. That ain't my definition."
***skips to next post***
rmfr
@ Arakish
It feels like disrespect too. It's like speaking to a wall. Again, an useless thread by a theist and... It follow the mode of action of theists here:
- First claim you're here to learn, while being polite, nice and reasonable.
- Get your deepest held beliefs be trashed.
- Create threads and muddying the water, play semantic games and the card victim.
- Begin to resort to insults.
I think @catholiccray's issue is that he thinks that a person who does not believe God does not exist must be a theist, when this is not true. Belief is an essential element to theism: thus, the thread OP is a non-sequitur.
@Sapporo: I checked him on that assertion earlier in the posts and he denied it. He came back with "I don't believe that god does not exist. You need to prove me wrong. " I told him no one gave a shit what he believed as he was not making a claim about reality. He's just bullshitting and trying to get a rise out of people. There isn't an honest bone in his body and he is scared to death of a real conversation.
@Cognostic
Ah yes, so you did.
Cognostic "He's just bullshitting and trying to get a rise out of people. There isn't an honest bone in his body and he is scared to death of a real conversation."
Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding, ladies and gentlemen we have a winner!
catholicray: "I don't believe that god does not exist. You need to prove me wrong."
Bullshit!
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat.
Do you even know what this means?
The burden of the proof lies upon him who affirms, not him who denies.
This means that since you are making the assertion, "I don't believe that god does not exist."; you are the one who needs to provide OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.
rmfr
For the sake of clarity, let it be know that I believe I don't believe what most people don't believe, unless they don't believe what I do believe. However, even if I believe what they don't believe, I still refuse to believe they don't believe it, because they cannot prove they don't believe my non-belief. And believe it or not, you must prove your non-belief in my belief before I am willing to not believe you believe me. Because if you don't believe what I believe is true, then I don't believe you don't believe it, and that makes the truth irrelevent until it is believed or not believed by everybody. I don't believe I can explain my belief in a non-belief any more clearly than that.
@ Tin-Man
Could not have written any better. Wonderful clarity.
rmfr
@Arakish Re: "Could not have written any better."
Golly gee, I would love to believe that, but I'm afraid my lack of non-belief about your belief has me not believing otherwise. I simply can't not believe every non-belief believed by others who don't believe the same way I don't believe. Granted, you don't have to not believe that, but if you were to believe in non-beliefs the way I don't believe in beliefs, then I believe you might not believe differently about the whole thing.
@ Tin-Man Re: "Clarity and Eloquence"
OK. … Believe whatsoever you wish to believe or not believe in your belief or non-belief of my belief. I can believe you wrote eloquently whether you believe in my belief of your non-belief. And the way you believe in the belief of my non-belief of mine own beliefs or non-beliefs is irrelevant whether I do believe in your beliefs or your non-beliefs in believing whether I truly believe or not believe. You may or may not believe my beliefs or non-beliefs of your beliefs and non-beliefs. Thus, if you do not believe what I believe is true beliefs or non-beliefs, then I cannot believe you do not believe my beliefs or non-beliefs, and that makes the truth of your beliefs and non-beliefs irrelevant whether I believe or not believe that you have written in exquisite clarity and eloquence until you can bring yourself to believe in your beliefs or non-beliefs of whether I speak the truth or lie. And yes, you cannot believe or not believe whether I believe or not believe whether I speak the truth or lie.
rmfr
@Arakish Re: "OK. … Believe whatsoever you wish to believe or not believe in your belief or non-belief of my belief."
I believe I don't believe I'm not having trouble not believing I believe that.
@ Tin-Man
It's hilarious. It is like playing the sort of games when you have to not mispeak words when you're a child.
Tinny, you are awesome.
"I don't believe God does not exist" if you want to say the position is invalid then prove it. If you don't want to prove it then we are moving on through the argument.
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