Theists, why are you so desperate to believe your deity exists?

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ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
For starters, this isn't

For starters, this isn't merely a sequential issue (e.g. breathing comes first), its a causal issue (e.g. experiences affect perception). Secondly, while I have broadened belief to encompass all top-down processes (mainly for the sake of members who might not know what top-down processes are), the broadening doesn't matter; the math would have stayed the same if I had said this is how all top-down processes work, and kept beliefs as just one specific instance of such a top-down process.

Cognostic's picture
Yes, sequential You believe

Yes, sequential You believe the words you use represent things, You think in words and believe them else wise you would not have a coherent idea / belief about the things in this world. It's completely sequential and completely erroneous. It is exactly the same as breathing. How do you talk without breathing? How do you have an idea without belief in the concepts of the language you are using. IT's ALL BS.

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
I don't understand what you

I don't understand what you are saying.

Cognostic's picture
figures. The walls are up.

figures. The walls are up.

Sheldon's picture
It's pathetic that John

It's pathetic that John thinks such dishonest evasion will go unnoticed. We should all use the same tactics when he starts espousing his creationist propaganda.

Science maintains species evolution through natural selection is still valid. I don't understand what you mean by "problem".

Sheldon's picture
So John, and SFT, you;re both

So John, and SFT, you;re both making grandiose claims for evidence your deity is real, which of you is wrong, and why?

You both love to denigrate atheism, yet don't ever offer any defence for your atheism / disbelief of all the other deities you arbitrarily deny.

It seems they both missed this, so I'll re-post it at the end where it *can't be missed.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: OP

Re: OP

Hey, Sheldon, I'm really glad you started this thread, because it fits in nicely with a question that has been on my mind lately. Was even planning on starting my own thread about it, but after thinking about it for awhile, I decided it would play in fairly well with this thread. So, along with the title question of this OP ("Theists, why are you so desperate to believe your deity exists?"), here is my complementary question to go along with it....

Why would anybody even WANT to worship ANY type of deity, even if it DID exist? What is the appeal? Why would anybody ever want to bow down to and kiss the ass of anything or anybody at all? It truly baffles my mind.

As I have said before, even IF any deity/god/mystical being were somehow proven to be real, I simply cannot see myself worshipping it. Even during all those years before escaping religion, I do not recall a time when I actually felt I was worshipping god. It simply never felt right to me to do so. Sure, I may have held some amount of respect for god during those days, but I could never wrap my mind around worshipping it. Even as a kid, it just felt..... "wrong". And now, more than ever, the whole concept of worshipping just totally boggles my mind. The question that keeps repeating in my head is, "WHY???"

Now, I can understand somebody who was raised in a strict religious environment believing the concept of worship to be a totally "natural" activity. That is what they were taught, so that is what they know. However, it completely blows my mind when it comes to those individuals who go out of their way to ACTIVELY SEEK something or somebody to worship. It is something I have great difficulty in comprehending. Simply does not compute. In my opinion, any person/entity that requires somebody to bow down before it and "kiss its feet" is a person/entity that is incredibly insecure and narcissistic and not worthy of respect, much less worship. And when is comes to a being that is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent, that being should be secure and confident enough with itself that it should give less than a drop of rat's piss as to whether I worship it or not. And when it comes right down to it, I have absolutely ZERO respect for insecure and narcissistic tyrants and bullies.

The_Quieter's picture
There's a meme that's been on

There's a meme that's been on the internet for years that explains it well enough.

"I know in my heart" sounds better than "I instinctively believe it and refuse to analytically think about it because I am so emotionally attached to the concept and don't care if it is actually true as long as I get to believe that it's true"

Or another that doesn't really have to do with the topic but I'll throw it in there.

Religion is being so angry about two men getting married that you spend millions upon millions of dollars trying to stop them while children starve to death.

CyberLN's picture
“Religion is being so angry

“Religion is being so angry about two men getting married that you spend millions upon millions of dollars trying to stop them while children starve to death.”

^^^ That!

Sheldon's picture
I imagine the answer varies

I imagine the answer varies from person to person, some people are servile by nature I guess, others re unable to cope with the fear of inevitable death in a universe that doesn't care about them at all, and has no plan for anything. Still others are opportunistic and self serving, and use religion to serve their own ends. Some are unimaginative and just adhere to tradition dogma and doctrine they've been indoctrinated with from birth. There are probably other reasons I imagine and of course not all of these are mutually exclusive.. It certainly serves the ego of some apologists to imagine they have uncovered some esoteric answer to life itself, that others can't fathom, I hear this a lot, though it is generally implied by the attitude and arrogant condescending tone they adopt, rather than stated plainly, though that also has been stated by apologists.

Anyway the rugby kicks off in an hour, enjoy guys and gals I'm off out.

Sheldon's picture
2 days and no answers, I'll

2 days and no answers, I'll try again then.

So John, and SFT, you;re both making grandiose claims for evidence your deity is real, which of you is wrong, and why?

You both love to denigrate atheism, yet don't ever offer any defence for your atheism / disbelief of all the other deities you arbitrarily deny.

Cognostic's picture
I seriously doubt they missed

I seriously doubt they missed it. "Avoiding" is the word that comes to mind. "Ignoring" would be another good word. Like the way they have learned to use their religious texts, they just don't see the stuff that does not fit into their world view. They are masters at cherry picking their way though life through years of long practice.

Sheldon's picture
Well it's been 5 day and

Well it's been 5 days, and still no answer from SFT, or Breezy?

So I will ask again, since you're both making grandiose claims for evidence your deity is real, which of you is wrong, and why?

xenoview's picture
Sheldon

Sheldon

I doubt either of them will answer you.

Sheldon's picture
I think you're right. Though

I think you're right. Though this is largely my point. Next time sft waltzes through with one of his unevidenced claims he gets a link to this question. Breezy starts denying science, but pretending his objections are scientifically valid when they're not, or that he's not motivated by his religious beliefs, then he gets asked again if he's a YEC and how old he thinks the earth/ universe are. Or if there are any scientific facts he denies that don't in any way refute part of his religious beliefs.

It highlights their duplicitous tactics. I love to see them hide from such questions, or try and deny their relevance, they might as well set their pants on fire.

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
We're both from Abrahamic

We're both from Abrahamic religions that follow the same God, are we not? Our differences exist only in the theological details. I probably have more in common with Muslims on certain things than I do with other denominations within Christianity.

I've gone and had face-to-face conversations with Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc., about our theological differences. Those conversations have been more constructive and far more interesting than the ones I've had with atheists so far.

Sapporo's picture
ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy: We're both

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy: We're both from Abrahamic religions that follow the same God, are we not? Our differences exist only in the theological details.

If you differ "only" in the theological details, to what extent do you worship the same God?

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
If you develop that

If you develop that philosophy a bit further, it may be an interesting argument. However, it's perhaps no different from two children having different opinions about the same parent. What differs are the perspectives, not the object.

Sapporo's picture
ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy: If you

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy: If you develop that philosophy a bit further, it may be an interesting argument. However, it's perhaps no different from two children having different opinions about the same parent. What differs are the perspectives, not the object.

Theology concerns the very nature of the gods at least as much as interpreting the gods.

Children don't generally get into arguments about the definition of their parents, including whether or not their parents actually exist.

It is undeniably the case that are millions of Christians, Muslims, and Jews who believe that those of the other two religions follow a false god, rather than merely a different perspective.

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
I haven't found that to be

I haven't found that to be the case; it wouldn't make sense to call them false gods if it's the same God. If anything, the central difference between the Abrahamic religious, center around the nature and role of Jesus. Its worth noting, however, that within Christianity there are different perspectives as well. Jehovah's Witnesses have a theology similar to Muslims when it comes to Jesus.

Sheldon's picture
Why is SFT wrong, and why are

Why is SFT wrong, and why are you right, and what evidence supports these assertions?

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
Why he's wrong and I'm right

Why he's wrong and I'm right about what, exactly? I not only not know his particular beliefs (which is why intelligent people choose discussion over debate), but there's plenty of things I agree with Islam on generally, ranging from the existence of God to the abstinence of alcohol.

Sheldon's picture
Evasion. You're not a Muslim

Evasion. You're not a Muslim John, and he's not a christian, it's obtuse to pretend there isn't a difference, and equally obtuse to pretend you don't know what I mean when I ask which of you is right, and why? Listing things you agree about is just a red herring.

If you don't like debate, then a debate forum is particularly peculiar place to come.

Cognostic's picture
Here are some other things

Here are some other things you can agree with.

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

The Jews and Christians that the Muslims are right, hey try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109

Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118

Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

I think it's great that you can set aside Islamic beliefs and befriend Muslims. I wish you would go to some Islamic countries and begin posting your opinions openly in public forums. THEN BEND OVER AND KISS YOUR ASS GOODBYE!

Sapporo's picture
ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy: I haven't

ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy: I haven't found that to be the case; it wouldn't make sense to call them false gods if it's the same God. If anything, the central difference between the Abrahamic religious, center around the nature and role of Jesus. Its worth noting, however, that within Christianity there are different perspectives as well. Jehovah's Witnesses have a theology similar to Muslims when it comes to Jesus.

It is certainly true that it is more the case that the primary issue for Muslims in general with the common Christian view of god it is because of Jesus being considered God. But the view of Christians regarding the Muslim god as pagan, satanic, heretical etc. is certainly very common.

That each religion has innumerable denominations with further disagreements is a notable extension of such behavior.

I know one Christian who at least at times does not regard Catholics as Christian, because he sees them as worshiping dead saints (especially Mary), and to a lesser extent, he sees them treating the pope as a divinity.

Sheldon's picture
You might find it prudent to

You might find it prudent to keep that opinion to yourself in many Muslim countries. So are you saying the 9-11 bombers worshipped the same deity as you, but just from a different perspective, at the moment they immolated themselves, along with their thousands of victims? It seems something of an understatement to describe that as "two children having different opinions about the same parent". Different perspectives indeed, very different, in fact almost incomparable to me, but then my perspective can no more encompass belief without objective evidence that it can accept that indiscriminate mass murder is ever morally justified. Though of course this is just my subjective opinion of course, I on;t have a deity telling me such things are what it wants from me. Do you really think your perspective is closer to theirs than mine?

NewSkeptic's picture
Yeah, no big deal. You think

Yeah, no big deal. You think he's going to hell and he thinks you are. Just theological details. At least you both agree I'm going to hell.

I guess I'll see one of you there.

Tin-Man's picture
@New Skeptic Re: "I guess I

@New Skeptic Re: "I guess I'll see one of you there."

ROFLMAO.... Oh, how I wish there was a "1000 Agree" button on here! Bwaaa-haaa-haaa...!

Sheldon's picture
"Yeah, no big deal. You think

"Yeah, no big deal. You think he's going to hell and he thinks you are. Just theological details. At least you both agree I'm going to hell.

I guess I'll see one of you there."

Brilliant, it is true that brevity is the soul of wit.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ NewSkeptic

@ NewSkeptic

KaaaBOOOM...love it! *still laughing over me cornflakes and oats*

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