Hey, everyone! I'm new to this forum in particular and about six months into atheism. I know this is a silly thing to get worked up over, but unfortunately I'm still sweating the small stuff and talking to fellow heathens is what helps me most.
I'll spare you the story of my deconversion for now, but my family is still quite Christian and a couple of times my mother has cited religious artifacts to me to discourage my lack of faith. First there was the shroud of Turin. I'm still getting over that, but that's not what this is about either.
In particular, there are these gold necklaces (I believe they're called nativity necklaces after looking them up) that claim to boast a piece of the stone rolled away from Jesus' tomb. Given that it was about $600, it sounds like a case of "God loves you and needs money", but the less rational side of me keeps freaking out...
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
I've got a special holy rock that I can sell you for a lot less than $600 :)
Sounds just like all the other relic hoaxes that have been perpetrated throughout the centuries: http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/the_medieval_relic_trade/
If somebody claimed a coprolite was the turd Jesus let loose when he was on the cross Christians would line up by the thousands to touch it and kiss it. Leaving behind a donation of their own of course.
@chimp3
Devilishly clever and so to the point!
Holy shit!
Walter McCrone wrote a book titled "Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin" which totally blows away that nonsense. Diddlyboop, there are so many religious hoaxes floating about that it is hard to keep track of them! It's been famously said that all the wood splinters from Jesus' cross are far heavier than the cross itself! Any time you hear miraculous or spectacular claims about religious relics you need to keep Carl Sagan's rule of good reasoning in mind. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the evidence isn't there, move on.
If anything, these scams should serve to reinforce a lack of belief. For me, they just solidify the image of a historically corrupt religious system.
Religion, corruption, what's in a name?
Amulets have been the norm for thousands of years now. The Italian Good Luck Horn (Cornicello) necklace was said to protect a person from the evil eye, which I'm pretty sure JRR Tolkien appropriated as the character Sauron in his Lord Of The Rings story no differently than the bible appropriated the myth of the Genesis story from the Epic Of Gilgamesh, which preceded it by 1800 years.
Amulets are everywhere to be seen. Certain Caribbean peoples can be scene wearing leather bracelets that will never come off even in death to ward off the Voodoo spirits. I'd be wealthy if I had a fraction of a penny for every person I've seen wearing a christian cross necklace. I know one person whose behavior is supernaturally modified. He will not place any drinking vessel (cup, glass, etc) upside down because it bodes poorly on such a practitioner.
People are stupid. I seriously think they'd rather succumb to stupidity than pony up the courage to shield themselves with logic. It's simply easier to be scared and people who need them to be scared take care of them because it gives them purpose. Win-Win, everybody is happy.
Ah, thank you guys so much. I'm feeling better already, though sadly right now I'm at the point right now where seeing religious commentary of any Christian will scare the life outta me. I've heard it gets better with time; here's to hoping it's the same with me!
As for McCrone's book -- I've not read it yet but I saw some reviews ( most likely from Christians ) stating that most of what he had to say was under heavy dispute?? I know, it's silly to keep getting worked up over the Italian table cloth but it keeps getting brought up...
Ok,Diddlyboop.......
A little ammunition for you........it may help.....
Turin Shroud….
This is a perennial challenge…it doesn’t matter how many times we put out the Carbon 14 test evidence ..theists still keep ,periodically ,touting the supposed Shroud of Turin…….as a proof of the validity of the Gospel story.
And yet…oddly they seem to wilfully ignore their own Gospel of John…which describes ,in some detail ,the shroud that Jesus was wrapped in..(according to their story).
John 20:5
20:5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
See that…..he “saw the linen clothes”…plural…..more than one….
John 20:6
20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Look…Peter too….he also “seeth the linen clothes”…..also plural…..several pieces.
And yet the Christian shroud enthusiasts still insist that the single sheet of the Turin relic is genuine….
But look…
John 20:7
20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
There you go….”a napkin that was about his head” …… so it appears that it may well have been common practice in 1st century Jewish funerary rites to wrap the head and body in two separate wrappings.
But of course we cannot uphold an unsupported Gospel account as evidence of anything…can we….that would be hypocrisy ……..
No ..what we really need is direct archaeological evidence of a 1st century Jewish burial….preferably from the Jerusalem area……
Something like…….
“Archaeologists have discovered the first known burial shroud in Jerusalem from the time of Christ's crucifixion - and say it casts serious doubt on the claimed authenticity of the Turin Shroud.
Ancient shrouds from the period have been found before in the Holy Land, but never in Jerusalem.
Researchers say the weave and design of the shroud discovered in a burial cave near Jerusalem's Old City are completely different to the Turin Shroud.”
Link….
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236161/First-burial-shroud-carb...
Link….
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8415377.stm
So..to summarize….Turin Shroud….wrong date…wrong weave…wrong style.
Hope it helps....
Diddlyboop:
Sounds like a review from one of the die-hards. As far as I'm concerned, the shroud was discredited even before the carbon-14 testing which was really icing on the cake. Having read the book myself, and having a background in the sciences, I can assure you that it is first rate! You will be amazed at how much bull has been dished out in behalf of the shroud of Turin! You just gotta read that book!
Sometimes it takes a year or two to totally get over the religious addiction, but that day will surely come for you. You will then find a kind of inner peace.
Greensnake:
Ah, thank you times a thousand! Does the book cover everything? I know a resurrected dead dude is never gonna be the reason for the shroud but y'know, silly fears. My family keeps bringing up the pollen and blood. :/
Pollen and blood huh? Wow it don't take much to convince someone who already wants to believe!
Tell them I got Cain and Abel's diapers, and I'll make sure to rub some pollen and blood on them!
In AD329, the Emperor Constantine sent his mother Helena to oversee his building of a basilica at the site of the Crucifixion and tomb.
During these excavations, Helena, perhaps the first and most successful archaeologist, found the wood of the crucifix — the relic that became known as the True Cross or the Life-giving Tree — as well as some nails used in the Crucifixion.
She sent parts of both to Constantine in Constantinople and kept some for her own church in Rome. The Emperor had part of his horse’s bridle made out of these nails.
Helena’s discovery played a huge role in promoting the Cross as the Christian symbol and in launching the fashion for relics that quickly proliferated, along with a mass fervour to discover more of them.
Soon the Holy Sepulchre boasted everything from the sponge that mopped Jesus’s brow and the lance that pierced his side to the skull of Adam. Pilgrims would caress and hug the True Cross and even take bites out of it.
Before long the relic industry was established — and it was not just relics connected to Jesus. The heads of the saints proliferated, too. The skull of St James was buried in Jerusalem, but there were several around Europe as well.
John the Baptist’s head would become one of the most prized. There would be at least five shrines claiming to have the original: the shrine of John’s head in the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus is revered by Muslims.
Perhaps the most bizarre relic was the Divine Prepuce, or Jesus’s foreskin — there were at least 15 segments in churches around Europe and one in Crusader Jerusalem during the Middle Ages.
A number of these relics were destroyed during the Reformation; others were lost; some have been discredited; but many are still revered.
The relic abuse industry is satirized to perfection in the BBC series Blackadder (S01E03). After being appointed Archbishop of Canterbury, Edmund Blackadder discusses the business opportunities with his friends:
"Basically, there appear to be four major profit areas. Curses, pardons, relics and selling the sexual favours of the nuns."
You can find the script here:
http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show...
And the actual episode here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt-VzpLNNHM
The really funny thing is that although this is meant to be satire, it's actually true. The church did all of these things and worse.
Great. Now prove any of this nonsense is true.
Whoaa !! $600 ? I hope we can eat that relic... tsk tsk tsk
Yep, 600 bucks. I reckon it's more because the necklace is made of gold than the teeny rock inside it. :/