unruly child finds jesus

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keith99's picture
unruly child finds jesus

as an atheist ,how can i argue against a statment to me that an unruly child has changed his way;s because of a new found faith in jesus

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Alembé's picture
The unruly boy may have

The unruly boy may have changed his ways because of his new found faith in the idea/myth of jesus promulgated by theists. However, his action in no way validates the existence or deity of jesus.

Edit: It seems the same to me as the Santa Claus myth.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
One can be an atheist/theist

One can be an atheist/theist/etc for the wrong reasons.

One can be a better person for the wrong reasons too.

Brainwashing/manipulation is used to control people, it does not mean it is always used to make people do bad things.
It can also change the ways of an unruly boy.

What we are debating is about the concept regardless of it's effects.
Is controlling people moral?

Is telling people they are guilty(of not being perfect) to make them more submissive, a moral action?

Does the end justify the means?
When the Crusaders brought peace by killing all the Muslims in Jerusalem after taking the city, was it a moral action?

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
the average person doesn't

the average person doesn't care about that sort of thing, Jeff. Mormons, as a whole, are wholesome people, for example. I'm not going to try and deconvert Mormons for the simply reason their lives seem better with their religion in it

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
no one is trying to change

no one is trying to change anybody's mind on things.

If someone brings forth the OP question to me, I would point out that immoral actions can also bring good things.

By killing everybody that disagrees with me, I can bring peace and harmony too.

It does not make it right, the end does not justify the means.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
Jeff, western history is full

Jeff, western history is full of people that did exactly that. I'm not saying it is moral, but the world would have been very different if everyone lived ethically. I cannot imagine such a world? What do you think it would be like?

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
it would be a better place

it would be a better place for sure.

I can imagine it quite easily, i just need to imagine a Better place than we have right now, where there are no murders, rape etc...

Some people that do not watch the news have a similar type of experience but for the wrong reasons.

Ignorance is a bliss and theists use such a philosophy all the time when it comes to the harm their own religion causes.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
keith99, sorry for derailing

keith99, sorry for derailing your thread. I cannot answer that question. I would imagine it would be best to seek advice from a person who works with kids - perhaps a teacher, paediatrician, psychologist, psychiatric, therapist, or counsellor.

Soldier68wca's picture
I would say you can't argue

I would say you can't argue against that statement. You can definitely argue the existence of the myth and you can easily replace "new found faith in jesus" with "new found faith in an imaginary unprovable legend" and it would still be a true statement. They specifically said that not jesus himself cured the unruly child, but the unruly child's "new found faith" is what did it. Well, that can be accurate. That their faith is misguided is, I think, irrelevant. Come to think of it, any faith, by definition, is guided by nothing in the first place.

watchman's picture
@keith99 ....

@keith99 ....

Soldier is right ,of course.....you cannot argue against the statement.......

BUT...you CAN point out that by introducing a free spirited ,(perhaps boisterous ) child to the concept of guilt ,the concept of sin ,the concept of judgement ,the concept of punishment , of being perpetually under observation by an invisible ,controlling all seeing "minder". they are doing what the religious have always done....

perhaps what religion was always designed to do.....

to beat down individualism and to impose conformity.... and ,of course control.

You might also ask in whose interest this is being done .....

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