https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0
I happened on this rather interesting documentary, which suggests that the New Testament Gospels were written as propaganda for the Flavian emperors. Despite the rather irritating Hollywood-style biblical music in the background, I was fascinated by the parallels drawn between the Jesus story and events in the lives of the father-and-son emperors, Vespasian and Titus.
My favorite story about Vespasian (not in this doco) relates to his death from a bowel illness. After a particularly prolific bout of diarrhea, he reportedly said "I think I'm becoming a god."
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Lost me in the first two sentences...christianity until 70CE (the sack of the Temple) was 'headquartered" in Jerusalem and was exclusively Jewish. You had to become a Jew to be considered a christian, that was the mainstream.
After that the main influences were Syrian and not until the mid second century did the Roman Pauline version start exerting influence which is the point I think these guys were promoting; that the gospels were written some time well after the Diaspora in 70CE and later extensively altered to include things like the Nativity, and would explain the errors in Jewish practice (as in Mark and Luke) ...its an argument.
I am not sure as a hypothesis it will stand up to close scrutiny.
Anything by Joseph Atwell is at best, conspiracy theory. He comes up with a theory and then simply cherry-picks facts and information to prove his assertions. Sorry but the documentary is bogus from the ground up. Richard Carrier, a real biblical historian, warns in many of his lectures to avoid the BS Joseph is Spewing. Nothing Atwell has said has been taken seriously by academia. Nothing.
I should have looked up Joseph Atwill. I see he studied Greek, Latin and Biblical studies at a Jesuit college in Japan, which should be enough up screw up anybody's grip on reality. There's a lot of bullshit flying in all directions in this biblical business.
Still, I find the Flavians' role in Jewish and Christian history intriguing.
Algebe,
The Flavians probably got contaminated with Jewish thought when they brought all of the Jewish slaves to Rome after the war to build the Colosseum and amphitheater. But although they were powerful they never did sell the Romans that they were really gods so even if the Gospels were written as propaganda for them it really didn't do them any good.
Simon of Cyrene is meant to be understoood as Simon Bar Kokhba, the leader of the 132 AD Jewish revolt against the Romans.
Jesus Christ was not a Roman first of all. he was a jew. He was crucified in A.D. 30 or so. for sedition
@billy zarcone: he was a jew.
Really? From all the pictures of him I saw in Sunday school when I was kid, I would have thought he was English, or maybe Swedish. I wonder if all the fascists, racists, and anti-Semites who've followed his flag over the centuries were aware that he was really Jewish.
if you look at early church paintings you would get the real jesus portrait. He was an middle eastern of jewish decent. he was dark in complexion and eyes and hair color.Just loook at the fine drawings of the renaissance and you wont see any thing that you describe above.
@Billy Zarcone Re: Algebe's post and your response to it.
Hmmmm.... I'm guessing that recognizing sarcasm isn't exactly your strong point, is it?... *heavy sigh*... *shaking head sadly*...
@Tin-Man: I'm guessing that recognizing sarcasm isn't exactly your strong point
I wasn't being sarcastic Tin-Man. Like every good christian aryan boy, I was brought up to see Jesus as a tall, fair-haired, blue-eyed northern European. Why else would they kick the Jewish kids out of school assembly when the principal started to preach about Jesus? He certainly wasn't one of them.
When I was around 12 or 13, I realized that Jesus wasn't fair-skinned or dark-skinned. He was the color of bullshit.
@Algebe Re: "Like every good christian aryan boy, I was brought up to see Jesus as a tall, fair-haired, blue-eyed northern European."
Yeah, me too. I'm with you on that. I just took your post as being a humorous "reverse sarcasm". Made me chuckle, at least. *grin* And, oddly enough, that is another one of the things that always bothered me about the whole Jesus stuff as a kid, but even more so once I got older and started learning about what Egyptian and Middle Eastern people really looked like. I could never wrap my head around all the pictures depicting Jesus as white. Puzzled the hell out of me. (Pardon the pun.)
@billy zarcone: Just loook at the fine drawings of the renaissance
Glad you mentioned them. Did you know that many renaissance Jesus portraits were modeled on Cesare Borgia, son of Pope Alexander VI? Cesare was also immortalized in Machievelli's "Prince".
@billy zarcone
Which early church paintings you talking about? The ones painted centuries after this supposed Jesus character died?
You know there was no sunblock back then right? And just about everyone spent large amounts of time outdoors? Ever see even a "white" person that spends all their lives outdoors in the sun w/o any sun protection? What color would you describe that person? Maybe a little bit of artistic expression as well? A white person will paint jesus white, a middle east person will paint jesus to be of more middle eastern look, etc etc etc.
Ever watch the show american gods? In that show they have a white jesus, a black jesus, hispanic, etc etc. Even that very fictional show has one thing right, people perceive their gods to be like them. Gee I wonder why....
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billy zarcone: I would love to know how in the hell you think you "know" any of that. There is no evidence for any of it. Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John are not even talking about the same Jesus. Paul does not even know Jesus was a man born of a virgin who had a ministry on earth.
Next you'll be telling us that Titus Flavius wasn't god.
Because jesus was born in Palestine to hebrew parents who raised him. he was barmitzfud when he was a young boy. His parents always took him to the 3 major festivals during the year. In jerusalem.He states that he did not come to disregard the law but to fullfill it. this sounds pretty jewish to me, also the way that he sites the hebrew scriptures, how he knew there history and the traditions.There is overwhelming evidence to draw from that yes jesus of nazareth was born a Jew.
Please prove any of that. Nazareth is never mentioned in the writings of Josephus, nor is it mentioned in any other first-century writings. Biblical geography is in error, as there is no cliff near the synagogue to which Jesus was allegedly taken, as recounted in Luke 4:24–30.There are no records of Jesus as a young boy. NONE. The first mention of Nazareth is 70 AD, 40 years after the death of this person you call Jesus. Before you can assert "He cites Hebrew scripture, " You have to prove he was real.
René Salm, "The Myth of Nazareth." asserts...."Nazareth did exist in more ancient times and through the Bronze Age. But then there was a hiatus. It ceased to exist and did not exist in Jesus’ day. Based on archaeological evidence, especially the tombs found in the area, Salm claims that the town came to be re-inhabited sometime between the two Jewish revolts (i.e., between 70 CE and 132 CE), as Jews who resettled following the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans relocated in northern climes."
It does not matter if the assertions are true or not true. The fact that the existence of Nazareth can be questioned is enough to throw doubt on it being the Birthplace of your magical Jesus character.
Please prove any of the assertions you are making. All you are doing is making more unfounded assertions. Prove something.
Jesus grew up in Nazareth but his birthplace was bethlehem. And jesus was no magical character current scholarship on the matter say that jesus was real and lived and died. just read the expositional commentaries on the jesus of history either conservative or liberal scholars will attest that jesus is a historic person.
He was real? That is funny because legitimate biblical historic scholars cannot agree on that detail. That is because the most famous person in history has left zero evidence he ever lived.
You claim scholars will attest? Please name any legitimate scholar who attested?
Well even scholars who come from the so called liberal bent say like bart Ehrman John dominic Crossan etc say that jesus Christ once inhabitated this planet. No David the present day scholarship by valid scholars state that there was a historic Jesus, that`s why they write articles and books on the subject.You have taken a minority view point from people who aren`t valis scholars.
Bart Ehrman's entire argument rests on one passage in Acts. Paul meets someone and "The Brother of Jesus." All Christians were "Brothers of Jesus" at the time. That is ALL BART EHRMAN HAS . His entire position hinges on this one passage. And frankly speaking, he is the best and most honest of the Biblical historians out there in the world today with the exception of Richard Carrier (WHO DISAGREES WITH BART.) Richard asserts, there is no good evidence for the existence of Jesus. Go to You Tube and watch them debate. Richard wins hands down.
If you were going to make something up, would you make up some story about someone who got crucified? Shit no, that's not uplifting at all, you'd make up something much better than that.
So on that basis, we can conclude that Jesus is a historical character.
The story of Icarus and Daedalus is a tragedy.
So on that basis, we can conclude that Icarus is a historical character.
The life of Hercules sucked.
So on that basis, we can conclude that Hercules is a historical character.
Prometheus was chained to a rock in the Caucasus Mountains for years, where his liver was eaten daily by an eagle.
So on that basis, we can conclude that Prometheus is a historical character.
But a religion is different to a tragedy; it tries to sell belief rather entertain a reader. A religion needs an uplifting, positive message. A tragedy just has to move the reader. Christianity is the only religion with such a downbeat message; makes it historically believable.
You missed the word "legitimate".
billy zarcone,
"just read the expositional commentaries on the jesus of history either conservative or liberal scholars will attest that jesus is a historic person."
Don't you think that those people might have a vested interest in pushing the idea that the Yeshua character was a historic person? Religion is a huge industry that employs millions of people. So even atheist businessmen will push the idea that the character was real because that is where they get their money from. It is all about the money.
billy zarcone,
The most hilarious thing of all is that the Yeshua (Jesus) character never did say that any Gentiles will get into the golden cube. He said that some members of the twelve tribes of Israel would. He was just another religious bigot.
Oh Boy... *sighing heavily*
billy zarcone said:
PLEASE, somebody handle this... I beg of you !!! *slight depression sets in.... reaching for a drink*
BS
@BS Re: "PLEASE, somebody handle this... I beg of you !!!"
Yeah, I know, right? Pretty much at a loss on that one myself. Wouldn't even know where to begin.... *rubbing eyes with heels of hands*... Oh, well... Can't save 'em all.... *shrugging shoulders*... Here... *handing over a large cup*... Have some eggnog. T'is the season, right? Oh, and you might notice an extra little "kick" to it. It is my special "high octane" blend. Enjoy.... *patting BS on the back*...
Edit to add: My apologies. Didn't mean to be rude. Anybody else care for some eggnog?
@ Tin Man
Hand me a pint and top it up with that moonshine of yours *plays Duelling Banjos*...I swear between the latest theist posters on this site I will turn into an alcoholafromic...as for this guy 'Billy' on this thread...I am not going to trot out what has been written many times before to prove the idiot is wrong about everything except well duh, yes Jesus was a jew if he existed at all.
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