In relation to Florida proposing a bill to display "In God We Trust" in schools. I say It's about time we put God first. We haven't for a long time and it shows...
Because Year’s ago when we didn’t have this issue, most people put God first and God/prayer was allowed in schools.
If you are old enough, you would remember.
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Well, years ago the issue was still there. School shootings have been going back since like 1840's. When exactly is your 'years ago' period?
What you just said was a reductionist non-sequitur, more specific post hoc, ergo propter hoc. *(after this, therefore because of this)* i.e a false cause fallacy.
Perhaps America's current state of school shootings is derived from something entirely independent from not having *"God first"* or prayer in schools, oh I don't know perhaps:
* 1. Increase in population
* 2. Increase in number of firearms
* 3. Increase in the ease of gaining firearms etc.
Example: Pointing to a fancy chart, Roger shows how temperatures have been rising over the past few centuries, whilst at the same time the numbers of pirates have been decreasing; thus pirates cool the world and global warming is a hoax.
The whole thing could just be a coincidence but your Dunning-Kruger thinks one relates to the other when they don't.
You are also begging the question. *(i.e., We must encourage our youth to worship God and put 'God first' to instil moral behaviour.)*
But does putting *"God first"* and worship actually produces moral behaviour?
How does allowing prayer in schools remove the problem?
What makes you think the way we are now is because of not putting God first?
Conclusion:
I put it to you that out of all the nations in the world the ones who decided to not put *"God first"* is the safest places to be not to mention the education system is doing far better than any nation with God as a priority.
I don't need to live in the time to understand what going on.
I can see you definitely are an atheist, which speaks volumes as to why you question having God in our lives or yours for that matter and the good that comes from that.
So therefore, I will not engage in a discussion trying to explain or defend my beliefs, when you have already made it up in your mind and are predisposed to having already formed an opinion, which you probably believe as fact, as to why having God in my life or our lives is a waste of time.
"Increase in the ease of gaining firearms etc."
As for the ease of purchasing a firearm, that comment alone demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the process of purchasing a firearm and the credentials needed to do so. So before we engage in that discussion, first go educate yourself on the MANY laws that are in place and enforced when it comes to purchasing a firearm. Then get back with me. Until that time any comments you make will be considered.... predictable and uninformed.
@Paul Pores
Oh, bullshit Paul! You can get a gun very easily. You can go to a gun show and just have cash. It's called the gun show loophole for a fucking reason.
You can go to ANY gun shop and buy a gun and not even register it depending on the gun. All you have to do is have a form of ID.
Here is how easy it is in Texas:
https://www.durysguns.com/news/basic-texas-gun-laws-for-beginners
In Florida, it is even easier.
So don't hand me this crap about how hard it is to buy a fucking gun, ANY fucking gun.
Also if there was a god and he was doing his fucking job, he would have prevented Nikolas Cruz from having a firearm and might have treated his mental issues. So don't hand me your fucking god crap either.
It is YOU that need an education.
Oh, and BTW, YOU came to an atheist website. YOU DO have to explain your god, so don't spew that pompous bullshit about a predetermined opinion.
It's obvious that you came here because YOU are a god gun nut. You came to bitch and moan. Get a fucking life!
I made a very simple comment at the very beginning and you chose to pursue this in depth. I'm not going to convince you of my beliefs/views and you certainly are not going to do the same to me. Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day.
"You can get a gun very easily. You can go to a gun show and just have cash. It's called the gun show loophole for a fucking reason.
You can go to ANY gun shop and buy a gun and not even register it depending on the gun. All you have to do is have a form of ID."
In your eloquent attempt to "sound" intelligent on the subject of Christianity and that of the laws governing the purchase and ownership of firearms, you have proven yourself through that attempt to be neither on either subject.
Debating this topic on here will accomplish nothing as you have already made up your mind and taken a certain position on both subjects which, no matter what I say or facts I bestow, will not convince you. So, therefore I choose not to engage with you stubborn atheists. I was hoping for more openminded atheists but they are rare indeed.
I do hope that one day you will change your position on God and be open to the gifts that HE provides us with everyday and reaping the benefits of HIS love and forgiveness. I do believe that there will come a time in your life when that will happen. You will Change your mind. How soon, well.... that will be up to you.
@Paul Pores
What a bunch of condescending arrogant BULLSHIT!
I am intelligent and knowledgeable about both christianity and laws governing the purchase of firearms. I cited a source that PROVED that I am correct. You just ranted and insulted not only me but everyone.
No god ever provided anything.
You don't want to have a conversation. You were sitting at home watching FOX probably and getting frustrated that the majority of people want gun control. You decided that you would chastise atheists and proselytize so YOU would feel superior. You are a very small person Paul P.
What you "hope" for is what you will never achieve. You want respect. You obviously suffer from an inferiority complex.
This isn't about anybody but YOU. That is why you came here.
I see a whole lot of "better than you" in your post, but curiously your post is completely devoid of any actual fact or numbers that defends your position in both gun control and on god.
Could not even spend 1 line in dozens actually supporting all your assertions or addressing others facts or counter arguments. To busy defending yourself and attacking others. A common tactic I have seen all to often.
"Debating this topic on here will accomplish nothing as you have already made up your mind "
>>That's a bit rich considering the strident assertion you started this thread with.
"I do hope that one day you will change your position on God"
>>I do hope one day you'll see you're wasting your life on a bronze age superstitious fiction.
"I do believe that there will come a time in your life when that will happen."
>>It's a common weakness in theists, try not to be so arrogant and presumptive, it is very irksome and extremely condescending.
--------------------------------------------------------
mykcob4 "You can get a gun very easily. You can go to a gun show and just have cash. It's called the gun show loophole for a fucking reason.
You can go to ANY gun shop and buy a gun and not even register it depending on the gun. All you have to do is have a form of ID."
Pp"In your eloquent attempt to "sound" intelligent on the subject of Christianity and that of the laws governing the purchase and ownership of firearms, you have proven yourself through that attempt to be neither on either subject."
>>So you have absolutely no answer to the facts he's presented about the ease with which guns can be purchased then? Then I think we can see who is offering eloquent, intelligent facts and erudition, and who is responding with arrogant vapid dismissive deflection and evasion.
You entered with bald assertion and are leaving with vapid dismissals, that's not the way to discuss anything.
You want to change my mind? It's really simple. You only need to do one thing. Ready for it?
All you need to do to change my mind about god is to provide evidence of its existence. That's it. You can do that, right?
"I can see you definitely are an atheist, ....So therefore, I will not engage in a discussion trying to explain or defend my beliefs,"
Well I'm stunned, another pompous theists dropping in to give us heathens another tedious sententious lecture on morals. I thought your opening post was idiotic, but to say you're not prepared to discuss your beliefs in a thread you started about your beliefs, and in the same post you vilify someone because they have made up their mind but don't agree with you is a new level of stupidity and arrogance. What you need is a pulpit, if you have no interest in discussion.
If we had a nickel for every idiot who came through here we'd be rich!
I was merely giving examples as to consider the fact that the reasons for current school shooting are too broad to conclude that it was because we didn't put "God first" .
* I mean another reason could be the fact that society today, well society in history too, feel the need to categorise and label everything but not just that but to put stigma's on labels. What I mean is one of the reasons for school shooting could be a person being depressed and bullied for being [insert stereotype here].
* Or they could simply be sociopaths.
* or their motives could be any number of things.
Your questioning one of my points that is not entirely the basis of my premise.
You can shoot down that "ease of gaining firearms" point (excuse the pun) and my point about you committing a post hoc false cause fallacy is still true.
Therefore the second half of your comment becomes moot.
Yes, there are, which is good, but it doesn't seem to be doing as good as it could do.
Here is a link that shows a 13-year-old buying a gun. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5425459/Shocking-video-shows-13-...
Ok, granted this is from Daily Mirror but it was simply the first link I choose.
Pot calling the kettle black there.
Actually, from the experience I see it as the theist is the one who usually pre-concludes a priori sentiments more so than an atheist. All of their reasoning stems down from a God above.
But you too are doing just that, can you not see your hypocrisy?
You also have made it up in your mind and are predisposed to having already formed an opinion, which you probably believe as fact, as to why having God is a necessity or in any way a full solution to school shootings. Not to mention you haven't given a reason for this either, just baseless claims.
Paul Pores,
You must be a Baptist or maybe a Methodist. They have always wanted to turn the public schools into churches.
Yes, that I am an atheist. What has that got to do with anything?
I can see you definitely are a Christian Theist, which speaks volumes as to why you question not having God in our lives/state.schools or yours for that matter and the good that comes from that. The good being the happiest and safest countries in the world are belonging to countries with large populations of atheists So therefore, I will not go any further in a discussion trying to explain or defend my beliefs, when you have already made it up in your mind and are predisposed to having already formed an opinion, which you probably believe as fact, as to why NOT having God in my life or discussing the topic, is a waste of time or somehow makes me lost or not as happy or moral as people who do have God in their lives.
You see how your point is pointless. It can easily be swapped to your position.
Do you get me?
@PP Re: "I can see you definitely are an atheist, ..."
Whoa-whoa-whoa!!!.... Hold on a sec! Do you mean to tell me there are actually ATHEISTS posting their blasphemous rhetoric HERE? On the most sacred ATHEIST Republic site??? Oh HELL no!!! Why didn't anybody tell me? Something's gonna have to be done about this shit! Anybody here have Ray Comfort's phone number? I'm sure he will want to hear about this!
MARTHA! Hurry! Call the priest! Tell 'im to bring a bucket of his holy water and his most powerful cross! Gotta exorcise my phone!
An excellent post I must say, cogent, erudite and eloquent, thank you fruyian.
@Paul Pores
Oh BULLSHIT.
Keep your fucking myth out of public schools. If you want god in schools, you have private schools for that. The most violent people in history are christian. The number one demographic of all violent criminals is christian.
I am old enough to remember the violation of the Constitution by christians, violating the Establishment Clause. Prayer doesn't do anything. It is nothing but a condescending display. There is no fucking god christian or otherwise!
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Introduction. Two clauses of the First Amendment concern the relationship of government to religion: the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause."
Yes, great idea!
Rather then worry about guns causing murder and put faith in 'god',
Whilst we are at it, lets stop worrying about nuclear war and put faith in unicorns!
Lets stop worrying about antibiotic resistance and put faith in santa claus!
Lets stop worrying about kids falling into drugs and put our faith in the easter bunny!
Great logic, you absolute idiot.
@ TBW
Where is that 1000 likes button? I'm sure I had it yesterday!
What an astonishingly arrogant and stupid post. Millions of atheists manage not to commit violent crimes such as murder and rape all over the world. America is a massively religious country compared to other western democracies, and it has far higher rates of violent crime like murder and rape when compared directly with secular democracies like Japan, Norway or Sweden for example.
Liberal gun laws increase the likelihood of gun crime and violence.
@Paul
Christianity is full of violence, has been since it's beginning. The Catholic church was violent in the medieval times, it's popes commanded violent and bloody crusades, it killed millions of natives in central and south america.
If guns were so easy to get a hold of, there would be less gun crimes. We need background checks for criminal and mental illness. If mental illness was treated the same as physical illness, there would be less mentally ill getting a hold of guns.
Prayer has never stopped any violence. You god has never stopped any violence. You god commanded and committed violence in the OT.
Can you prove that your god is real? Can you prove prayer stops violence?
edit
"Can you prove prayer stops violence?"
i can prove that prayer can make you dumb..
i can prove that prayer can make you lazy..
i can prove that prayer can make you look like you're doing something or helping even if it's not..
i can prove that prayer can make you save from hell..(even if you're a murdere,rapist,burglar, etc. name it)
then he'll save you..and we all go to heaven and worship him till you're sick of it and you wanted to go to hell..
i'd rather be in hell than to worship for all of eternity..
at least in hell they play rock and roll bands there..
if hell exist..but sadly..no (*long face*)
@Paul Pores original post:
I get this is probably just flamebait trolling post, but call me a sucker... I will play.
When was that? By saying "we" I assume you mean United States? Are you saying all of us must put your god first if we want to stop school shootings? Nice vague timeline on this too. Do you even know the most recent year in the US that the US had no mass shootings in its schools for a year? (3 or more people killed in 1 incident by a gun.)
For a theist, you know remarkably little about the this topic you started. Public tax funded schools are increasingly getting non secular of late. They added "god" to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. Several states/counties have been adding the common christian creation idea to the public tax dollar funded schools curriculum. Betsy Devos is pushing the voucher system allowing faith oriented schools to get taxpayer dollars. In short: a much better argument can be made that "god" in schools has been on the rise in the last few decades. A better argument would show a correlation between increasing "god" in schools is actually: increasing the frequency of mass shootings in schools, the numbers certainly point that way. But I know that is garbage too. In short "god" really has nothing to do with it either way. Easy access to easy to operate mass human killing machines has just about everything to do with it. The ease to access of guns factor compared to rates of gun violence, mass shootings, and mass shootings in schools, has been shown time and time again in other countries in the world. A country has a spate of mass shootings, they increase gun control on a national level, and without fail, gun violence, mass shootings and mass shootings in schools begins to drop, picking up speed as stricter gun control takes mass killing machines out of peoples hands that do not show extreme responsibility and solid reason for it.
God/prayer was always allowed in schools, even public ones. And private faith based schools could talk and do whatever they like. Just teachers/staff of school could not lead the class in prayer or cover it like they cover the sciences in public tax funded schools. You guys got Sunday school for that for those that want to teach god but cannot afford to send their kid to a private non publicly funded school. How would you feel if attendance to your local schools changed where the popular religion was Islam, where you are of a (I am guessing) Christian denomination. Do you want your kids classes to have lots of time spent discussing the Quran? Throwing out a mat and bowing in the direction of mecca every so often? I am going to go ahead and guess that would be a very emphatic no. There is a real good reason why religion as a whole is not done in public tax dollar funded schools beyond just trying to be fair to atheist/agnostics.
If you were old enough, and actually read history and knew the topic you were talking about, you would not sound like an idiot spouting off ridiculous nonsense, and blatant inaccuracies. But then again, I have a strong suspicion you are just trolling.
Edited for some clarity and grammatical errors. Added to the end of my 2nd paragraph.
I made a very simple comment at the very beginning and you chose to pursue this in depth. I'm not going to convince you of my beliefs/views and you certainly are not going to do the same to me. Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day.
In your eloquent attempt to "sound" intelligent on the subject of Christianity and that of the laws governing the purchase and ownership of firearms, you have proven yourself through that attempt to be neither on either subject.
Debating this topic on here will accomplish nothing as you have already made up your mind and taken a certain position on both subjects which, no matter what I say or facts I bestow, will not convince you. So, therefore I choose not to engage with you stubborn atheists. I was hoping for more openminded atheists but they are rare indeed.
I do hope that one day you will change your position on God and be open to the gifts that HE provides us with everyday and reaping the benefits of HIS love and forgiveness. I do believe that there will come a time in your life when that will happen. How soon, well.... that will be up to you.
Oh I got a copy and paste post, don't I feel special.
What a textbook ad hominem attack.
Lets sum up here: Multiple logical fallacies used. Copy and Paste answer, and zero "facts bestowed."
It seems you don't have a good answer, so you attack and then run away instead, patting yourself on the back in the crazy belief that you think you are still right.
You are right in that: you are not going to convince me of shit with your latest post. I want solid numbers, solid reasonable fact based conclusions, come up with those, and I am most certainly open minded enough to accept those conclusions if they are better than mine and I would change my opinion, I have in the past and I be happy to again given solid fact and reasoning.
Good luck though with finding the facts/reasoning, I likely have read and know more about both subjects then you have.
Does PP stand for Polly the Parrot? It was tedious arrogant bilge the first time, now it's lazy tedious arrogant bilge. Another drive by apologist heavy on the preaching, and light on the thinking.
Paul Pores: In your eloquent attempt to......that will be up to you
Hey. Who brought a parrot into the Debate Forum?
I think that we should all take a "p" on "P"!
@Paul Pores original post:
Another thought just occurred to me. Pure numbers.
Countries that have higher percentages of atheist/agnostic, china, sweden, czech republic, hong kong, netherlands, uk, Israel (woah!), Japan and so on. All collectively have far less numbers of mass school shootings than the US has. With many of them having zero.
Again, I reillustrate that I do not think their is any real connection between secularism and mass shootings in our schools, but if there was, the numbers would definitely point to more secular leaning countries having less school shootings. The opposite of what you say in your original post.
But LFTW, the problem with what your saying, is that numbers and analytics, are the basis for logic.... But this guy doesn't use that. Instead, he goes by feelings and emotions, stemming from brainwashing. For him it doesn't have to "be real" based on the facts, it just has to "feel real".
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