What would it take to make you believe?

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Russian-Tank's picture
What would it take to make you believe?

There are mountains of proof that God and souls exist. Before you go wild and start saying that I'm being an idiot, hear me out. This proof could sometimes feel like it might point to something, but it is generally anecdotal proof. For example, someone is about to die, has a dream of Jesus healing them, and then they wake up perfectly healthy. Near death experiences are arguably the most convincing stories, although again, anecdotal and so far, haven't been scientifically proven. Then we have arguments about there needing to be a cause for the universe, which again, may not even be true. We have ideas of what may have started the universe, but ultately, we don't know the cause. Anecdotes and unknowns aside, what would it take for you to see or experience to say "yes the supernatural exists"?

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biggus dickus's picture
Evidence.

Evidence.

Randomhero1982's picture
I would firstly say the

I would firstly say the wording is perhaps incorrect, proof itself means 'evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth'. There is no proof, nothing that could be confirmed, which is why religion is still faith based.

Anyways, I think we've also touched on this before regarding NDE and OBE, is it more likely the laws of nature were suspended in favour of you, or that a perfectly rational and natural explanation can be put forward?

With you second premise, I would simply ask... why does the universe need a primary cause? And why does it again require anything other than a natural explanation?

It's almost a god of the gaps argument, in which when something cannot be immediately explained, it goes into a bucket labelled super natural.

I have no idea what would really make me believe, but if there is a god then surely he would know what it would take and would either in the immortal words of captain Picard "make it so" (sorry couldn't resist) or he is fine or indifferent with my stance.

watchman's picture
Yup.... pretty much as Biggus

Yup.... pretty much as Biggus Dickus says......

EVIDENCE...... some evidence ...... any evidence ....

"There are mountains of proof that God and souls exist." ............ NO...no there isn't.... not even molehills of "proof".

" This proof could sometimes feel like it might point to something,..."......... Proof doesn't "feel" like anything.....those are "feelings".

"but it is generally anecdotal proof".... .. then its an anecdote and NOT proof.

Sorry its going to have to be "PROOF" ....

mykcob4's picture
Asked and answered seemingly

Asked and answered seemingly millions of times on this forum alone.
So do the work yourself. Look up what constitutes Fact, Proof, Evidence. I am tired of doing all the work for you.
Try looking up evidence in a court of law, the scientific method, Logic, and rules for debate logic arguments.
Pretend that you are writing a doctoral thesis and are having to defend it to a board of review.
NDE's are nothing more than temporary hallucinations and cannot be verified, so are not proof of anything more than a patient having a hallucination.
The "cause" theory has thoroughly been debunked!
"Intelligent Design" has thoroughly been debunked!

Kwahu Jakquai's picture
Make me believe in what??

Make me believe in what??

Kwahu Jakquai's picture
I know my thoughts and brain

I know my thoughts and brain processes can be flawed so I would probably have a difficult time believing concepts as fact without evidence from a source that I trust. And then again, if it was an extraordinary belief? well...I would need even more evidence to trust it!!

xenoview's picture
I'm sure a god would know

I'm sure a god would know what it takes for me to believe. A god could start by giving testable evidence that passes peer review. A god could start by healing all amputees, healing all sick people on this planet, ending world hunger, and ending all wars. If god couldn't do all of those things, but only some of them, then I would consider god to be a member of advanced alien race.

Sky Pilot's picture
xenoview,

xenoview,

If there were no wars, no hunger, and no sick people what would we die from? And if there were no sick people wouldn't we lose all of our accumulated medical knowledge?

xenoview's picture
Diotrephes

Diotrephes
I guess we would die of natural causes(old age). I doubt we would lose our medical knowledge, people would still get hurt and sick. I never stated that god would have to heal everyone all the time.

Nyarlathotep's picture
I would respond with: why

I would respond with: why does god/souls/supernatural always seem to lie hidden on the edge of human knowledge? In "just happens" to always be in the same place bullshit artists always hide their non-sense. I don't think that is coincidence; how about you?

As others have said, I want to see a repeatable effect; that is CLEARLY not mundane in origin. The one I typically offer is the spontaneous healing of severed limbs. Or to phrase it another way: why won't god heal amputees?

Sky Pilot's picture
Nyarlathotep,

Nyarlathotep,

Don't you think it would be very traumatic for a person to grow some new limbs? Imagine the calorie intake that would be needed to grow a new leg or a new arm. And how long would you want it to take?

LogicFTW's picture
Uh.. I am sure people missing

Uh.. I am sure people missing limbs would not mind the additional calorie intake to regrow their limb. Even if it took a year.
Also if god is all powerful, why can't he just make it happen instantly w/o any calories?

I doubt it be traumatic at all, especially compared to the trauma of losing the limb. I seriously doubt anyone missing a limb would turn down a regrowth of their limb.

Kwahu Jakquai's picture
Nyarlathotep: "why does god

Nyarlathotep: "why does god/souls/supernatural always seem to lie hidden on the edge of human knowledge? In "just happens" to always be in the same place bullshit artists always hide their non-sense. I don't think that is coincidence; how about you?"

Very nice!

algebe's picture
@Russian_Tank: "For example,

@Russian_Tank: "For example, someone is about to die, has a dream of Jesus healing them, and then they wake up perfectly healthy."

First, those stories always seem to be reported by disreputable, tabloid-type media with no credibility. Can you provide a link to one reported in the American Journal of Medicine or The Lancet?

Second, the conditions that are "cured" are always invisible from the outside, such as brain tumors. I've never heard of anyone growing a new limb.

Third, why are such cases so rare and arbitrary? Why would an allegedly omnipotent and omnipresent god be so capricious?

Kwahu Jakquai's picture
Believe? I guess that I would

Believe? I guess that I would like to reword it as "trust" in what I understand to be reality!

watchman's picture
@ Russian-Tank...

@ Russian-Tank...

OK.... Mykcob4 post has just given me an idea.... as he often does.....

Many years ago now.... as a young Skeptic (it was the done thing back then to misspell it...) ,I was told this....

Back in the nineteen twenties the Jesuits of Australia came up with the plan of perpetrating a hard line campaign
of evangelism against the , hitherto untouched native peoples of the islands between New Guinea and Indonesia...

The Jesuites went to work with a will and within a couple of years had made great inroads ,converting almost all
of the tribes to Catholicism .

Once things started to look a little dangerous around 1940 the good brothers obviously "legged it" back to Australia .
In due course the Japanese troops started island hopping down the chain of Indonesian islands.

When they were closs to this particular island the local head man called all his islanders together....
they sat and discussed their course of action all night.

They were not a large number.... and completely unarmed ,save for a few old "trophy" spears... but ,they reasoned, that surely
God would not allow the yellow men to conquer them...not now they were true Christians. Surely faith would save them.

The Japanese landing ships arrived with the next dawn .... they landed ,apparently unoppossed, then as they probed into the
interior ,leaving the beaches. They made contact with the tribe.... they had been up all night making wooden rifles..
praying over them that God would make them into real weapons at the point they were needed. Directed by their elders they
charged the seasoned Japanese troops yelling and screaming waiting for the moment the wooden guns would fire for real.
When God would defend his people.

God ,of course had taken a day off.... or the tribes "faith" was not strong enough... whichever it was... the "guns" remained
stubbornly wooden.... and what the Japs saw was waves of natives charging them ....screaming and yelling and all
apparently carying weapons...

the Japanese opened fire !

600 tribes people charged...... they were wiped out to a man .... only 30 old women and young children were left alive.

A triumph for Catholicism ...

Now....what do you make of that ?

(Hint...if you read Mykcob4's post...you will find he's given you a blueprint for researching such claims.... give it a go..)

chimp3's picture
If any of the thousand gods

If any of the thousand gods imagined by humans wants me to believe it will figure out how to convince me.

CyberLN's picture
^ That!

^ That!

LogicFTW's picture
There is "mountains" of

There is "mountains" of anecdotal proof for Santa Claus, for the tooth fairy, for any other god you do not believe in.
If anecdotal proof is all you need, how do you dismiss those ideas/gods?

Also you sort of asked two different questions. What would make me believe, and what would convince me of the supernatural.
Which is it? Both?

Randomhero1982's picture
Point for consideration my

Point for consideration my fellow primates...

If one was to ask a normal child that hasn't been doctrinated by either side of the argument, "who is real, God or Santa?"

I wonder what the outcome would be?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Randomhero1982 - If one was

Randomhero1982 - If one was to ask a normal child that hasn't been [indoctrinated] by either side of the argument...

That is probably about as rare as hen's teeth where I live!

Longwinded77's picture
I had a supernatural vision

I had a supernatural vision

mykcob4's picture
@Longwinded

@Longwinded
NO way fucking way. You THINK you had a supernatural vision, you want to BELIEVE that you had a supernatural vision, but you never did.
What fucking proof do you have that you had a supernatural vision, and please spare me crap like personal testimony. I want empirical proof and nothing less.
Fucking unbelievable!

Longwinded77's picture
...what proof?... Lol...you

...what proof?... Lol...you guys are exhausting with your constant "wheres the proof" chanting over and over "prove it, prove it, wheres the proof?... Hey...i just farted, ...wanna stick your face in my butt crack for proof?.. Lololhaha come on! Let it rest and try finding a little less-simple way of understanding... its really not that hard

xenoview's picture
LW77

LW77
You just whining about proof because you know there is no proof of god. None of the peoples testimonies can be tested and peer reviewed. Do you take everything on faith?

LogicFTW's picture
"try finding a little less

"try finding a little less simple way of understanding..."

What are you babbling on about?

Why would we want a less simple way of understanding?

algebe's picture
Longwinded77

Longwinded77

How vile. Keep your farts to yourself. Did you learn to talk like that from reading the Bible, or were you perhaps schooled by priests?

Randomhero1982's picture
Had you consumed a large

Had you consumed a large amount of delicious mushroom before hand?

Longwinded77's picture
Nope

Nope

Flamenca's picture
I don't mean to be rude, but

I don't mean to be rude, but schizophrenia includes false beliefs, visual or sound hallucinations, etc. I'd strongly recommend you visit a psychologist and tell him/her the same.

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