I am actually curious because I always get asked the question "what it take for you to believe in god? "
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They'll never answer burn. they are too scared. You are asking them to leave the womb.
Sadly I know...
Like most conversions, this would be a slow process. You have any material for me to read? I know you've mentioned the Bible, but that hasn't worked for me so far. Got anything else?
And yet you and other theist seem to believe we atheists have no idea about the bible or christianity. Let me clue you in on something. Rejecting christianity is never an easy thing. We have to fight centuries of brainwashing and indoctrination. We have to fight the institutional ever presence of christianity that is so pervasive in all our lives. I assure you that most atheists know the bible inside out. They didn't just get up one day and say "hey, I don't believe in god anymore." Most atheists didn't want to become atheists in the first place, but they just could not accept a lie and live their life based on that lie. Just think about it, when you decide that there is no god, the first thing you have to do is decide if you should be open about it. You have to decide how to conduct yourself in every future situation. You have to decide if you will just obey christianity thrust down your throat everywhere you turn or not. So faced with that you exhaust every possibility that there is proof of a god. And you find that every promise, every proof is hollow and without substance. You start hearing what look like perfectly normal people saying strange things like "I walk with the lord." They may have well said, "I walk with a giant pink elephant." Makes about as much sense. You start seeing the lies and apologist bullshit used to cover the fact that there is nothing there.
I am not trying to convert you JoC, or anyone, but just take a look at the "christian way". Is there anything that isn't personal testimony (just a form that cannot be substantiated)? Is there anything that can be verified? Why is science such a threat? Why are all the things they say, everything that they promise just empty words? I'm sure you have been to a few christian gatherings. I have too, I still go to plenty (everyone wants to invite the atheist guy). How come every one of those gatherings turns out to be a bunch of personal testimonies and every testimony is bullshit? Really, I'm not kidding. Just think about it. How many times have they declared that a miracle occurred, and it turns out that the "miracle" that they are referring to is that they really really really believe in god, or that jesus spoke to them/ Even though they were christian before, but now all of a sudden they are even more christian. How many times have you heard personal testimony that gives credit to jesus, when everyone knows that it is for some other reason? Like the cancer that went into remission or other such so-called miracles. I really get a kick out the people testifying that talk about how their life was messed up without jesus. They claim that they drank, got high, were sex addicts, or some other crazy thing, but all of a sudden they got jesus and they just stopped. Well I know, you know, they know, and everyone knows, that isn't the way it happens. A person has to decide to quit drinking. If they are praying to stop drinking then they have already made that decision.
So JoC I could say "open your eyes" but what I will really advise you to do is open your ears. Just listen and tell me that all the empty promises aren't bullshit. I know what it is like, I've been there. Most atheists if not all have been there.
Open your ears then your eyes and mind will open.
Very well said!!! The only thing I will say to the contrary is JOC I AM trying to convert you. My goal in life is to open the eyes to as many believers as possible. I want to eradicate religion from our society. I believe it does no good only people within do good. I want the next generation of children to grow up in a moral world where people care for each other and want to help. Not in a world where people only do good for the fear of their god punishing them. I have said this before on these threads and I will say it again I will be theists biggest threat, I will spread logical thinking and questioning of everything to the masses. I am young and I am still developing my debating skills. This is the first ever forum I have joined! And to add to mykcob4 the reason is because I have been afraid to come out as an atheist! But now the doors are open and I am coming! Through truth and logic I will break down these walls that 1000's of years of religion has put up. Yes I sound crazy but so did everyone that changed the world!
I don’t know 99% of whatever you’re talking about. You must have me confused with a fundamentalist Protestant, which I am not.
Okay JoC, I'll accept that. But did you read the content? Did you understand that the words I wrote are real, that nothing christian actually has substance?
That's not what I said, my friend. You mention a bunch of testimonial references and I honestly don't know much about that. Catholic masses aren't based on testimonial evidence of God or Jesus. Yet, you assume I've been to these kinds of activities... which I have not been to until April this year and even then it was stressed that we take their testimonies as just that. Testimonies. Not proof or evidence of something higher.
The Bible is 100% testimonies???
Okay recently JoC, my catholic neighbor asked me to attend a seminar at her church. I went. It was just like described, all testimonials. There was a promise that "your life will change" but all it was was a bunch of testimonies. there was even a film of some famous guy (have no clue who he was) where he swears that his life changed just for joining this program. So I joined. Six weeks of nothing but getting into groups and rah-rah jesus bullshit testimonies.
But here is something you may understand. I was raised High Mass Episcopal. Which is exactly like catholic but with no pope. I have had conversations with priests, youth ministers, elders (lay people), nuns. Not one could give me a straight answer. It was always "god moves in mysterious ways" and "just pray and god will be there" and "we aren't meant to question god". Every answer was more empty than the last. Ask yourself why that is JoC. Don't take my word for it, and don't just rely on the ineptness of catholics. Ask a bunch of religions.
Oh, they are good at telling you what god wants, even though they haven't a clue. And in every instance, they pray as if it does anything. It might make the people that do it feel better filling them with false hope, but that is all it does.
Try it. Pray and ask for a specific miracle. It will never come true. Don't make it a selfish request but be very specific. At best you will realise a coincidence. More likely absolutely nothing will happen.
Then go to a priest or someone along those lines and ask them why it didn't happen. They will give you every excuse in the proverbial book, but they will not give you a straight answer, nor will they be specific. they will be vague. They may even chastise you or punish you. There won't even listen "ask and ye shall receive". they'll just say that you are being impertinent.
@Mykcob4 "There was a promise that "your life will change" but all it was was a bunch of testimonies."
LOL. That happened to me once, but it turned out to be an Amway recruitment drive. Lots of people got up and talked about their life-chaning miracle experiences with crappy cosmetics and bad instant coffee. I got my free waffle maker and got out of there.
Mykcob, what did you expect the seminar was really about?
I can't picture you 6 weeks listening to Jesus and miracles, didn't you get a fever because of the stress? What a nightmare!
@Angiebot
I am used to it. I've become numb to the drone of jesus rah-rah pep rallies. I went because my neighbor expected me to. She is a devout Peruvian catholic. If you know Latin Americans, you know that they are unduly passionate when it comes to religion.
I sat in all those meetings mostly silent. I gave encouragement to people that needed it but didn't explain that a transformation in their lives had to be a commitment not to god but to change itself.
Yes, it was very hard to just listen to how wonderful jesus was, and to how jesus had changed their lives with absolutely no proof that that actually occurred, but I listened anyway.
The hard part is when I was expected to give testimony. You are expected to say something about how great your life has become because you handed your brain over to religion. I just said something along the lines of how I battled alcoholism and PTSD, but now I am good. I didn't give credit to god or jesus but instead praised the counseling I received.
@Mykcob:
If you know Latin Americans I've got several Latin American friends. As you can imagine, because we share language, Spain shelters the vast majority of the Latinos in Europe. A dear Peruvian RCC friend tried for reconvert me for years as well... She surrendered.
The hard part is when I was expected to give testimony. Certainly it may be!
I gave encouragement to people that needed a transformation in their lives (...), a commitment not to god but to change itself.
+100. It's very kind of you to attend these meetings, you seem waaaay more patient to believers in your real life than in your virtual one, hehe!!!
ha ha but aren't we all... lol
@Angiebot
Yep, I'm the paragon of patience...NOT! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I picture Chimp and you both as Clint-Eastwoodian characters (angry on the outside, tender in the inside), in a porch of a white southern colonial home, with a rifle and a "believers, piss off" cap, scaring the hell out of JW's and Mormons who dare to knock on your door.
Joc I have to say you do tend to understand and think for yourself... you say the Bible is inaccurate yet you still use it for truth?? I am confused at this logic.
I’ll explain to you what I believe in our email.
There's section with a bunch of books recommendations in Atheistrepublic. @JontheCat. How about "The God Delusion (we mention it a lot in this forum), "God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens or "Breaking the Spell" by Daniel Dennet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE5UkbZQYyM
P.S. Although I guess @Burn will mention them.
I tried reading the God delusion a while back and from the little I've read (I didn't finish reading it in favor of another book I decided to read), Dawkins mixes all religions in one bowl and picks and chooses the things which sound absurd and paint everything in that color.
I've heard it said on this page that atheism isn't a belief system or there isn't one form of atheism and all and yet Dawkins doesn't acknowledge that the same is true for religions - Christianity is distinct from Islam and both are distinct from Hinduism and Shintoism, and Daoism and Judaism and Dawkins-ism.
I would check out ironchariots.org, it's the wikipedia about atheism. Check out arguments for god, and the counter arguments. Go with whichever side you feel is correct.
Absolutely I will compile a list of great books and articles for you to read... are you truly interested? If you actually would like to learn more and this just isn't sarcasm then email me at burnyourbibles@gmail.com
Absolutely I will compile a list of great books and articles for you to read... are you truly interested? If you actually would like to learn more and this just isn't sarcasm then email me at burnyourbibles@gmail.com
shot you an email.
Thank you I emailed you back...
You cannot read the bible alone as a serum to faith. You have to contrast it to the unbiased historicity of man. Once you've done that and stacked up your point-counterpoint stance you can draw whatever conclusions your courage allows. Scott Bidstrup is basically a lay person who, like you and most of us, had questions surrounding the validity of the biblical claims on the whole of man's origins and presence, and whether its telling of a god wasn't yet another concocted story by man to serve himself. He presents a snap shot of man's historicity as contrasted with the biblical story so give him a read.
As you requested -
http://www.bidstrup.com/virus.htm
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoqzcDrILJ0
AJ777
That video is evidence of how to lie not proof of a god.
You're a fucking asshole!
Why don't you look objectively at the arguments for/against god instead of looking for "evidence" the conforms to your presuppositions (this is called confirmation bias). Frank Turek's arguments are not evidence for god.
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