When can the Agnostic say 'Yes' ?

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Sheldon's picture
Dworkin "I believe that the

Dworkin "I believe that the statement 'God exists' is possibly true and I believe that the statement 'God does not exist' is possibly true' ."

So out of two mutually exclusive positions you're saying one or the other is possibly true.

Priceless

Is this blindingly obvious claim serving any purpose beyond creating hilarity? That's known as a deepity btw.

Dworkin "Both theists and atheists seems to have great difficulty with the idea of an Agnostic withholding belief"

No they don't, I am an atheist and an agnostic, thus I am an agnostic who withholds belief. Your pomposity is matched by your verbosity to be sure, but it would be far better if you focused on learning the meaning of just two words. Like agnosticism and atheism for a start, which you are still broadly misrepresenting.

The fact you adopt an air of intellectual superiority just makes this errant nonsense all the more hilarious. FYI rest assured no one is really angered by something as transparent as contradicting the dictionary, and pretending the result is somehow philosophically profound.

doG's picture
@cognitivedissonancesufferer

@cognitivedissonancesufferer

If a friend says, I just bought a dog. It is easy to believe this, as dogs exist, and you can purchase them, and to boot, your friend has wanted to get a dog forever. In other words, it is reasonable to take what he said, at face value...it may not be true...but there is no reason to believe otherwise. If your friend said I have a talking purple unicorn, that fly's at mach 12, that farts out wrapped presents from it's butt, when it slows to subsonic speeds...is it reasonable to believe...without objective evidence?

doG is imparting this knowledge to dworkin, in hopes of him using this logic to further his reasoning abilities.

Tin-Man's picture
@doG Re: Mach 12 Unicorn

@doG Re: Mach 12 Unicorn

Damn, dude. What's wrong with you? Just because YOU don't believe in it does not necessarily mean it is not real. I mean, unless you KNOW it isn't real, then your lack of belief means nothing.... *rolling eyes*... Ugh! You aunicornists are all alike. Because if somebody else believes in it strongly enough and is able to convince many others to believe in it, then they obviously know something you don't believe you know. In which case, they may very well know the Mach 12 Unicorn is real based on their beliefs of which you have no knowledge. Remember, you don't have to know everything to believe everything you know. Otherwise, you might start believing you don't know anything about what other people believe they know. If you cannot understand that, then I believe I don't know how to make it any more simple.

Edit to add: Hey, Dworkin, I believe I am better at this than you are. Ya know?

LogicFTW's picture
@Tin-Man

@Tin-Man

*googles how fast mach 12 is.*

9207 mph.

Pfth, the text I write of said about unicorn speeds through the internet way, WAY! faster! ;)

Dworkin's picture
doG,

doG,

You have reminded me of a joke.

Have you heard of the insomniac, agnostic, dyslexic?

He was up all night wondering if there was a Dog!

D.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Tin Man

@ Tin Man

You have certainly earned the right to be modest.

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "You have

@Old Man Re: "You have certainly earned the right to be modest."

Believe me, I know.

Cognostic's picture
@doG: My brother happens to

@doG: My brother happens to own a purple unicorn that farts rainbows. You ever seen a rainbow. Ha! Owned!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ COg

@ COg

So, That's where Eric went! Bloody chimp thieves. Unicorn rustlers, I knew it was an inside job. We will have words young cog....after you have cleaned the bathroom.

Walter the Pink Square Pooing Wombat misses him terribly. No seriously, Walter is really bad at missing people. Only yesterday he tried to miss me but ran straight into my legs.

Cognostic's picture
@Old man: *Quickly slapping

@Old man: *Quickly slapping my hands over my mouth and scurrying into the banana patch."

doG's picture
@greatwisdomchimp

@greatwisdomchimp

Ha...I don't believe you! Your brother is a chimp (or some sort of hybrid)...and...all chimps favorite color is yellow...you banana eating fibber. By my reckoning, that unicorn would be yellow. Ha HA! Liar! Caught you with basic religious type reasoning. Who's owned now?

cranky47's picture
@ Cognostic

@ Cognostic

"My brother happens to own a purple unicorn that farts rainbows. You ever seen a rainbow. Ha! Owned!"

I believe you absolutely and envy your brother. Do you think he'd mind if I went over to his house and rode his unicorn? I'll take treats. What do purple unicorns like to eat?

I'm even luckier than your bro , I have Trevor my pet dragon. ***

Trevor is a pygmy Welsh green. His wingspan is only 18 feet. He lives under my house and eats homeless people. When he was smaller I fed him local children. Had to stop that because people began asking awkward questions. Wasn't my fault. How was I supposed to know people are so attached to their offspring ? I only ever took just one when they had at least three. I didn't think they'd notice.

Sorry I don't have any photos . Trevor gets very cross with anyone who tries to take his photo. I assure you, making a welsh pygmy dragon cross is the last thing you want to do. Indeed, it usually is.

***To any who do not believe in dragons, I refer you to that spiffing documentary series "Game Of Thrones"

Cognostic's picture
@Cranky: I suggest we get

@Cranky: I suggest we get over their tonight, roast and eat the damn thing before Old Man shows up! Remember, if he does show up, it was a big chicken.

cranky47's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

Is a purple unicorn a different genus from a horse? I don't like horse meat; it's sweet and unpleasant.

I'd really like to ride it. Perhaps I'll be able to ride a purple unicorn because I can't ride a horse ( I fall off if they go over a walk)

I'm afraid it would be too big for Trevor to eat in one go.

Cognostic's picture
@Cranky: Okay, here's the

@Cranky: Okay, here's the plan. You ride the damn thing to death and I'll cook it.

Sheldon's picture
So is this another theist

So is this another theist drive by sermon, by "thesis boy"?

I think we ought to run a three strikes and you're out policy for people who post long wordy sermons, then ignore all responses. Only to return later and post another sermon in the same fashion.

Strike one for Dworkin?

doG's picture
"strike one"?

"strike one"?

You are being gracious...stop it.

Homer's picture
@Dworkin,
Sheldon's picture
@Homer

@Homer

Another god of the gaps polemic, there is no more need to disprove a deity, than there is to disprove mermaids or unicorns. They are unproven concepts, and the origins of the universe are irrelevant to that fact.

Homer's picture
Not trying to prove or

Not trying to prove or disprove anything myself, I was just providing Dworkin something to consider in whatever this is he is trying to do.

Sheldon's picture
Homer "Not trying to prove

Homer "Not trying to prove or disprove anything myself, I was just providing Dworkin something to consider in whatever this is he is trying to do."

Well now he can consider what you linked as a god of the gaps polemic, which is what it is.

Homer's picture
Two men survive Leslie's

Two men survive Leslie's firing squad, one walks away happy to be alive but left pondering what just happened unsatisfied this was all chance... The other starts yelling in his best Gomer Pyle "citizen's arrest" voice, "god of the gaps!! god of the gaps!! I declare god of the gaps!!"

Dworkin's picture
Folks,

Folks,

Just saying thanks for the constructive criticism on my modest thesis. If its any comfort your responses have been much more helpful and polite than those I garnered on a theist discussion forum.

An interesting psychological comparison. My general conclusion is that the theist and atheist camps have little 'gap' room for the agnostic, but at least the atheists are prepared to talk about it, and that's worth something. (smiley here).

d.

Tin-Man's picture
@Dworkin

@Dworkin

In an effort to offer some constructive criticism, you really suck at trolling. Perhaps you should consider a different hobby? Just a suggestion. I've heard that basket weaving can be very relaxing.

Dworkin's picture
Tin,

Tin,

My efforts here have not been wasted. Looking back over the thread there are obviously some non-philosophers engaged as best they can. I respect that.

You will be aware that philosophy is about questioning beliefs, particularly our own beliefs. This is not an easy thing to do, notably when someone does not realise, or denies, that they have certain beliefs. It takes a couple of years for some undergrads to shed the mindset.

I once had to fail a student, a keen evangelical, because he could not present a wider perspective in his written work. I tried to enlighten him and fellow students tried also, but it was no use. He just didn't have a concept of critical thinking in his chosen subject for the exam essays.

D.

Tin-Man's picture
@Dworkin Re: "My efforts

@Dworkin Re: "My efforts here have not been wasted."

Ummmmm.... Effort to do WHAT, exactly? If you mean your effort to display your dismal skills as a troll, then - YES - your efforts were a total success. Congratulations!... *tossing a handful of confetti into air*.... *blowing party horn*...

Unfortunately, though, as I have already stated, your trolling techniques are sorely lacking in style and entertainment value. (Apparently, you did not comprehend when I said, "You suck at trolling." Therefore, as a courtesy, I will attempt to explain it to you more clearly.)

First of all, you try too hard. You make it way too obvious. You must learn the art of subtlety and patience to keep your audience in a state of uncertainty as long as possible. Showing your hand too soon just takes all the fun out of it.

Next: Subject matter. When attempting to blow smoke up the collective asses of a group and cause confusion amongst its members, it is critical that you use a subject with which very few (if any) of the individuals in the group are familiar. Otherwise, you make yourself look like a complete fucking moron and get your ass served to you on a silver platter. (But - hey - you know that already, right?)

Finally, you need to be able to relate to your audience. Be personable. Be witty. Make them laugh. You want them to like you so that you can troll longer and extend the time you have to spread malcontent and sow mayhem among the masses. I'm afraid I have to give you a D- in this area. Don't despair, though, because that just means there is room for improvement.

Bottom line is, if you truly feel that being a troll is your calling in life, then don't just half-assedly go through the motions for the sake of just wanting to wear the title. COMMIT to it. OWN it. Study. Practice. Research. LEARN. Hone those skills to a fine razor edge. Sure, it is hard work. Sure, it takes discipline and sacrifice. But that is the price you must pay to be The Best. Otherwise, just remain a mediocre noob with no life in his mommy's basement. Your choice, Champ.

Whitefire13's picture
****holy fuckin’ shit****

****holy fuckin’ shit****

Dworkin just got advice from one of the best! I mean the bestest evvveeerrrrrr!!!!

*shit, fuck
-
Pssssst Tin, did I “out” you?”

Cognostic's picture
@Dworkin: Both theists and

@Dworkin: Both theists and atheists seems to have great difficulty with the idea of an Agnostic withholding belief.

You withhold belief... That Means - You do not believe.... Atheism is withholding belief. AGNOSTICISM says NOTHING ABOUT BELIEF. Stop pretending you are stupid.

Dworkin's picture
Cog,

Cog,

You are confused about the concept of belief. I am beginning to suspect that some atheists try to use the concept of belief in a particular, self serving way, in order to constrain the debate. I think at the root of this is a philosophical reduction, an attempt to define terms in such a way as to strengthen a certain view and reject another view. This is not good philosophy.

To give you some credit on your capitalised claim, I agree that Agnosticism need say nothing about belief. An Agnostic position stands on its own and does not need 'atheist' or 'theist' tacked on to it. However, an Agnostic can easily believe that atheism and theism are likely wrong, but possibly true. This would avoid the divisive 'agnostic theist' and 'agnostic atheist' titles.

In the widest sense, we are all agnostics, and I take great comfort in that.

D.

Cognostic's picture
Dworkin: Agnostic stands on

Dworkin: Agnostic stands on its own.

Agnostic: There is no evidence for the existence of god and thus it can not be known. (Standing on its own. A CLAIM ABOUT FUCKING KNOWLEDGE)

Theist: There is a god and I think I have loads of good evidence - ENTER APOLOGETICS. ALL FAILURES.

AGNOSTICISM REGARDS KNOWLEDGE NOT BELIEF..... THE QUESTION IS..... WHAT DO YOU BELIEVED?

RE: "atheism and theism are likely wrong," So not only do you have no idea at all what Agnosticism is, YOU DON'T FUCKING UNDERSTAND ATHEISM.

Atheism is NOT a belief system. Atheists are people who do not believe in God or Gods. For atheism to be wrong, you have to assert that I actually do believe in a god.

Please demonstrate that anyone can believe that Atheism is wrong. You win stupid comment of the month. Atheism is a position on a theist claim.

Theist: "I believe God exists."
Atheist: "I don't believe you."
Agnostic Theist: "I believe god exists but can't prove it."
Agnostic Atheist: "I don't believe your god exists and don't see evidence for the claim.
Anti-theist: Your god does not exist and I can prove it. (If I couldn't, my anti-theist would be a really stupid claim.)

The response to the question, "Do you believe in a God, is ---- Yes or No. The answer is NOT, "I'm agnostic."

If you respond "I am agnostic" You have admitted that there is no knowledge concerning God or gods. (Nothing can be known) Given that nothing can be known one way or the other (Enter Pascal's Wager) Do you believe or not believe. Withholding belief (What atheists do) is exactly the same thing as not believing.... HOW MANY MORE WAYS ARE YOU GOING TO ADMIT TO BEING ATHEIST.

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