Who created the universe?

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Sky Pilot's picture
Searching for truth,

Searching for truth,

"So, are you saying it came from nothing?"

The problem is that we simply can't comprehend what "nothing" is so it's impossible to understand its properties. If you understand atomic theory then you know about the various elemental particles. They are not atoms but building blocks of atoms. And you would know that stars are originally composed of just hydrogen atoms that go nuclear. So if the idea of everything coming from nothing is too much for you then accept the fact that everything came from hydrogen.

edited =spelling

Sheldon's picture
Why do they assume the

Why do they assume the universe was created at all? No one can demonstrate any objective evidence that the universe was created or designed, or for anything supernatural at all for that matter. The question is a common logical fallacy called argumentum ad ignorantiam, this fallacy is used to try and reverse the burden of proof in any discussion or debate.

Next time someone asks you what or who created the universe ask them what objective evidence they can demonstrate that the universe was designed or created at all? I can virtually guarantee they'll repeat the fallacious appeal to ignorance by asking how else it came to exist. Tell them you don't know, and neither do they, but you are not making any claims about it, and they are, so the burden of proof is entirely theirs.

Remind them that every single thing humans have found explanations for have been natural material phenomena, and never once has anything supernatural been objectively evidenced, even all the things humans assigned supernatural causes to like lightning,, earthquakes and tsunamis. Explain they are using a god of the gaps argument, as that is what argumentum ad ignorantiam is, a fallacious attempt to insert their deity into gaps in our knowledge because they know every time we have gained some knowledge of the world or universe, it has never once revealed any objective evidence for a deity. So theists just move their deity into the next gap.

Muashkis's picture
The assertion alone that

The assertion alone that universe need to be created or come from somewhere is biased. There is no evidence clearly indicating that universe even needs a beginning.

As Sapporo said: Nature may well be eternal.

The more relevant question is How the universe works, because we can all agree that it does work. But even the gaps in our knowledge there are answered the same way any intellectually honest person would.

Nobody knows. Yet!

arakish's picture
Something From Nothing

Something From Nothing

Is it not hilarious that the Absolutists use the argument of the Big Bang Theory to insinuate that us atheists believe that "something" came from "nothing?" I have yet to hear any atheist agree this is what they believe the Big Bang Theory insinuates. Herein, I am going to throw some new ideas out there. They are written as "tongue-in-cheek" humor. But, they may also make you go, "Hmmm..."

The myth told by the Absolutists is definitely a description about the "something from nothing" hypothesis. Just ask them. They will tell you that the universe came about from their God creating it. However, where did their God come from? Nothing? If your God has always existed, then how come you find it so difficult to accept our argument that the "universe" has always existed?

In Einstein's theories, which have been proven to be fact numerous times, there are two ways in which Time slows down. Relativistic velocities, or horrendously powerful gravitational sources. For those who do not know, relativistic velocities are those velocities which approach the speed of light: 299,792,458 meters per second. Or, 1,079,252,848.8 kilometers per hour. Or, 983,571,056.429 509 835 feet per second. Or, 670,616,629.383 756 705 miles per hour. Take your pick. Me, I prefer the first one.

It has also been proven within Einstein's theories that light can be warped by powerful gravitational sources. Just go to hubblesite.org and do a search on "gravity lensing," or "gravitational lensing." As far as I am concerned, Hubble has returned some of the most awesomely beautiful images I have ever seen.

Back to the story. The horrendously powerful gravity sources would be what are referred to as "black holes." There have been some who wanted to change this term to MECO: Magnetospheric Eternally Collapsing Object. I don't think it ever caught on though. Black holes have gravity so powerful, even light cannot escape, but Hawking Radiation can. Thus, if the gravity is that powerful, then the black hole is also considered to have infinite density.

Now here is my hypothesis. I am probably the only person on Earth who has this hypothesis.

Now take ALL the matter that is in the universe right now and collapse it down to a single point of singularity. Throw in ALL those black holes, hell, throw in ALL the dark matter also. With all that condensed into a single point of singularity, you have the greatest infinite density ever conceived. This density also means you have the greatest infinite gravity ever conceived. Which also means you have the greatest mass ever conceived.

Focusing on just the gravity, since it is literally absolute infinite, that means Time is infinitely slowed. Thus, while that single point of singularity existed, Time was infinite. Thus, the universe is infinitely old. The universe has always existed.

I no longer have the mathematical skills to prove this with physics equations. Thus, this is basically a thought hypothesis.

It is when in that state of singularity, the universe, as far as knowledge is capable, was in a State of Unquantification. It cannot be quantified with our current understanding. However, there are top professionals still working on it.

Right now, we are in the State of Expansion. There has been another hypothesis put forward called the "Big Crunch." Most here probably alread knows what that means. Simply put it is the state when the universe can no longer expand and begins the State of Compression. Or, Deflation, if you prefer. It has also bee hypothesized that this Big Bang - Expansion - Compression - Big Crunch cycle may have been occurring for so long, we could never hope of comprehending how old the universe truly is.

Thus, with this simplified thought hypothesis, there is no need for any deity. The universe has always existed.

Now, rip me rear end to shreds.


Atheist Jogger's picture
@arakish Great point you've

@arakish Great point you've made. I like it a lot.
"If your God has always existed, then how come you find it so difficult to accept our argument that the "universe" has always existed?"

To take it further: god spent an infinite amount of years, before getting lonely and deciding only 13.7 billion years ago to make a big bang, and then waited another 13.7 billion minus a couple of thousand years before creating humans who are told they can only worship him because he is a jealous god. Why would he wait so long, and then create a species that will die out within a couple of hundred thousand or less years time? Sounds like a pretty stupid god.

Ramo Mpq's picture


Because the Islamic understanding and definition of god, in short, is 1. For more details look at chapter 112 of the Quran, its very short

Sheldon's picture
"Because the Islamic

"Because the Islamic understanding and definition of god, in short, is 1. For more details look at chapter 112 of the Quran, its very short"

It's a just a string of unevidenced assertions.

Muashkis's picture
Well, defining Allah as a

Well, defining Allah as a refuge is at least correct. He is definitely one some muslims retreat to when their fallacious logic fails them.

Muashkis's picture
My take on this was that time

My take on this was that time during the initial big bang breaks down well before the initial bang itself. After all, it's clear that relativity would slow down time to a standstill well before reaching the initial bang. The density of mass would indeed be too great. Leading to eternal start, basically. Have yet to find a paper addressing this, regrettably.

But I for one rather prefer the hypothesis about locally reoccurring inflation. There are actually experiments done in attempts to prove this, as explained here, linked before when touching the subject about the constants. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJzoelANL_Y&t=684s

I see this as our best current bet to possibly explain this aspect.

Edited for grammar fixes

Grinseed's picture
Time for theists to join the

Time for theists to join the atheists in admitting they don't know how or if the universe began. Theists only believe it was created. They, like atheists, just don't know.

arakish's picture


Exactly. Even I do not know. I have an idea, but that is all it is. Ultimately, even I have to admit that I DO NOT KNOW. And that is the problem with Absolutists.

Scientists/Atheists read LOTS of books and still feel they have a lot to learn.
Absolutists barely read one book and feel they know everything.

The biggest problem with today's society is that the intelligent people admit that they do not know everything, whereas stupid religionists feel they have all the answers. (I forget who said this, I read it somewhere on the WWW).


arakish's picture
Just found it:

Just found it:

The problem with today’s world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
— Charles Bukowski

And yeah, I paraphrased the hell of it...


Bill Kilpatrick's picture
The universe evolved from

The universe evolved from what went before and will proceed to whatever's next. Infinite regress might be unsatisfactory for discussion's sake but any immediate truth we might agree on is just one phase of a cycle.

And so to bed ...

Sky Pilot's picture
It's estimated that there is

It's estimated that there is about 200 Billion galaxies in the observable universe. To put that into a scale we can relate to imagine that each galaxies occupies an area of 1 cubic feet. So 200 billion cubic feet would be a sphere with a diameter of about 7 miles. Now remember, we are in an area of just one cubic feet on a very small planet. Measure one cubic foot and then visualize a sphere with a diameter of about 7 miles.

So here we are on a tiny speck of dust in a 7 mile diameter sphere. The biblical God Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the god of the armies, only cares about the people who live on an infinitesimally small part of that tiny speck of dust in a sphere that's about 7 miles in diameter. And that God, who created everything in the universe, is going to spend eternity with just those special people.

If you believe any religious fairy tale, especially the one in the Bible or in the Koran, then you are bat shit insane and that's putting it nicely.

Cognostic's picture
Whenever you deal with a

Whenever you deal with a Search for Truth,
And explanations get long in the tooth,
And people seem stupid, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite eno-o-o-o-o-ough,

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at 900 miles an hour.
It's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned,
The sun that is the source of all our power.

Now the sun, and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
Are moving at a million miles a day,
In the outer spiral arm, at 40, 000 miles an hour,
Of a galaxy we call the Milky Way.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars;
It's a hundred thousand light-years side to side;
It bulges in the middle sixteen thousand light-years thick,
But out by us it's just three thousand light-years wide.

We're thirty thousand light-years from Galactic Central Point,
We go 'round every two hundred million years;
And our galaxy itself is one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

Our universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
In all of the directions it can whiz;
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And hope that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause Search for Truth is failing here on Earth!

The_Quieter's picture
Asking 'who' created the

Asking 'who' created the universe is like looking at snowflakes and asking who is up in the sky making them. After all they're all different and intricate so 'something' must create them.

It ignores the natural forces that are responsible for snow and tries to make something else responsible for it. When you explain the reason that snow forms and why snowflakes are all different the person asking 'who' created them then turns and demands to know 'who' created the forces that the created the snow.

And when you explain precipitation and seasons and why they happen, they demand to know 'who' created the forces that cause that.

So on and so forth until you get to something you can't explain perfectly then "AH HA! Must be MY god!"

But of course they won't prove that and the 'everything has to come from something' rule suddenly becomes a huge special pleading fallacy for their god.

chimp3's picture
I read Lawrence Krauss's book

I read Lawrence Krauss's book "Atom". I learned that physicists have a very good idea about the initial state of the universe back to the first billionth of a second. Before that is unknown. But no Boogie Man in the sky is required. I look to scientists to explan natural events and consider preachers and mullahs damned liars.

Cognostic's picture
Finally someone with a brain,

Finally someone with a brain, No Heart, but a brain @ TIN MAN "What in the unholy blue blazes does ANY of that have to do with being an atheist??" No one knows and the very LEAST of ALL the EXPLANATIONS is Magical All Powerful Creators that waggle their fingers and poof entire universes into existence. (Any and all other explanations are based on facts and evidence.) Ancient Aliens have more evidence for an Alien creation than does the God or the Muslims, Christians or Jews have for its version of creation.

arakish's picture
And don't forget the

And don't forget the Ginormous Cosmic Bunnies...


Cognostic's picture
Bunnies actually exist -

Bunnies actually exist - whose to say there aren't any cosmic bunnies? How in the hell do you explain carrots and alfalfa without cosmic bunnies.

algebe's picture
@Searching for Truth: the

@Searching for Truth: the precision of which the sun and moon have been moving about

Precision? The moon was created out of a collision with another planet the size of Mars and coalesced out of a ring of debris thrown out by that event. Ever since, its gravity has been slowing the Earth's rotation gradually as it moves away. Eventually it will escape completely. It happens that we live in an era when the apparent size of the Moon and Sun are exactly the same, so we get total eclipses. All of this is the result of cosmic accidents. Without the moon to slow the Earth's rotation and churn the seas, we probably wouldn't have evolved, but that doesn't imply a purpose or precision.

But that reminds of a Zen koan.
Why is the Moon more important than the Sun?
Because it shines at night when we need the light.


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