Why the Christian God is Impossible

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Cole Green's picture
Why the Christian God is Impossible


Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

Proving a Universal Negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

Defining YAHWEH

Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.

Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

Perfection Begets Imperfection

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

The Free Will Argument

The Christians' objection to this argument involves free will. They say that a being must have free will to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans free will to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this free will to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that free will is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with free will may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with free will could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of free will for happiness, God could have created humans with free will who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has free will, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have free will to be happy, will never use that free will to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

Belief More Important Than Action

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

Perfection's Imperfect Revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

Contradictory Justice

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census! It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

Contradictory History

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

Unfulfilled Prophecy

The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.

The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

The Omniscient Changes the Future

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.

The Omniscient is Surprised

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

The Conclusion of the matter

I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.

Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:

"You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."

If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.
As for me and my house, we shall choose reality.

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Lmale's picture
Man that was a long one lol

Man that was a long one lol well written though.

beneames's picture
Yeah well written. Nice and

Yeah well written. Nice and clear. I can't say I know much about the Invisible Pink Unicorn, but I do have some responses for the other stuff you wrote. Sorry if it turns out to be a bit long - there was a lot in there. Just skip through it if you want to join the conversation but aren't interested in my comments.

Defining Yahweh: Hell and eternal torment.
Contrary to popular opinion, this is not what Jesus and his followers believed. The dualistic consequences of eternal bliss or eternal torment come more from medieval thinking, developed a long time after Jesus. The word translated "hell" in the New Testament is the word "Gehenna," which was an actual place just outside Jerusalem. It was where they dumped the bodies after people died, then burned them (hence it was a place of "eternal" smouldering fire). Not one of the city's tourist attractions, but a real place in this world all the same.

Jesus' gospel was not that God was going to destroy the earth and take the good people to a different place with clouds and harps and flying naked babies, but that God was going to restore THIS world and make it better - Earth 2.0, minus the suffering. Jesus called it the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone who wanted to be a part of it could join in and in a sense help God to bring in the new kingdom - by living like people of that future world (generous, compassionate, just, peaceful, creative etc).

The final picture in the Bible is of heaven (where god lives) and earth (where we live) coming together, and there's a wonderful city (remember it's poetry not literal), and the thieves and murderers etc are outside the city. Same world, no eternal torment, they're just not involved. It's apocalyptic literature - poetry and metaphor - so its not really clear what happens to the people who don't want to be a part of this kingdom. The key theme though is "God is love." I have some theories, but they're just theories.

Perfection and God.
The Christian theological perspective is that God was perfect and complete before the universe but wanted to share, to create, to give. When you have something amazing you want other people to experience it too. So much love he wanted to share it. This also explains the free will/robots thing. God wanted to work together with people who loved him back. Robots can't do that, not really. Love is a choice, so we need to be able to choose. A relationship where one partner is forced to do stuff is actually an abusive one. There's a lot of choice going on here, because it's a relational thing. God chooses to create because he wants to. God creates us with the ability to choose (eg to love or hate, to create or destroy). This is basically what the Adam and Eve story means. In this sense we're a little different to animals because they do things mainly by instinct.

What was god doing for all eternity? That's kind of a weird question. You make it sound like there was a huge amount of time when god was sitting around doing nothing, but according to physics, time is a necessary part of this universe. It can be bent, it's affected by gravity etc. So time came into existence with the universe. I would say that god created it. And if god is god then he's not limited to time.

You speak a lot about this idea of perfection and omnipotence, but those terms are really western, post-enlightenment thinking. The writers of the bible texts didnt really think like that. They were eastern people, and it works differently when you think differently about the world. The Bible isn't like a textbook for Christianity. It's a collection of writings of various people's experiences of god over a few thousand years that gives us an idea of what God is like and what he's up to. You have to read them through the eyes of the original readers though (most people are pretty bad at that, including most Christians).

So a perfect creator doesn't necessarily require a perfect creation. What if it's like the perfect movie director wanting to create the perfect scene? You can't only have that one perfect scene because it'd be a 5min movie. And the scene wouldn't make any sense or have as much depth without the back story, character development, conflict, struggle etc.

This also makes sense of the suffering. No conflict means no character development. Some of the suffering is brought on by human free will. But some (earthquakes, tsunamis, cancer) is just how the world is. It doesn't target particular people, it's just the scene we have. I don't know if you could say it's inherently evil. Everybody dies. And often these kinds of things bring out the best in communities. I personally think that those tribulation and challenges played a big part in helping us evolve into the strong, flexible and intelligent beings we are today.

Infinite punishment for finite sins.
I think I've covered this enough already. The non-existence of hell and eternal punishment answers quite a few of your objections.

The "perfect revelation" - the Bible.
Actually the Bible doesn't claim to be the perfect revelation of God. That's just another thing that preachers have said over the years, mostly post-enlightenment. The Bible is a collection of writings from a lot of different people that gives their experiences and thoughts about God. Yes there are some contradictions, because the writers' understanding of God develops along the way. Some of the "contradictions" are also the result of a development in maturity of the people as well. Like how you would tell a child "Don't touch the oven," but when they grow up you  change it to "Go ahead, and here's how you use it."

The Bible does claim however that JESUS is the representation of God, so if we look at Jesus we can know what God is like - generous, selfless, compassionate, looking out for the poor and mistreated etc.

Yes there have been many different perspectives on what the bible is saying over the years, however through proper literary and cultural study we can get a good idea of what the writers meant when they wrote it. The are still some ambiguous bits, which you'd expect from a text that's at the least 1900 years old. But the ambiguous bits are fewer and fewer these days. Most of the interpretation problems people have are because they haven't done their homework properly.

Contradictory history.
Again, the Bible doesn't claim to be perfect. Contradictions don't prove it's useless. Those examples you mentioned aren't important to the story. If the writer got Esau's wives wrong, what does it matter. Who cares whether Timnah was a concubine or a son? These ancient writers don't demand perfection in their story telling like our history textbooks today, although considering that they were pretty damn meticulous. The main thing was usually the message behind the stories. And Jesus' lineage was through both Solomon and Nathan (one led to Joseph, one to Mary).

Final random point...
The Bible doesn't say that God experiences all of the human emotions.

Ok. That's way more than enough. Congratulations anyone who's followed to the end. I blame Cole ;)

Kathy K-m's picture
Thank you! You just spared me

Thank you! You just spared me a whole lotta typing. :-)
I agree with what this guy ^^^^said.
And while I appreciate the effort the original poster went to, he really just speaks of one, very limited understanding of the "Christian God", seemingly forgetting, he/she/it, would also be the Jewish, and later, Muslim God.
The perspective is too limited and these arguments aren't exactly new. Does anyone alive really believe the book was, literally, written BY God? Even the Catholics know better.

Spewer's picture
Are you Chad Docterman?
Shock of God's picture
First of all, I'd like to

First of all, I'd like to point out that if atheism rests on the validation of a universal negative, and a universal negative cannot be validated, then atheism is an untenable position.

Now, addressing the attributes that you boldly claim God cannot possess:

1.) Sans the Universe and all of creation, God was timeless. There was no time for him to not do anything. His act to create the Universe is what broke this timeless state and brought our Universe into being.

Secondly, it does not follow that a perfect being, in the sense that it is maximally great, could not choose to create something. There is nothing about a being's perfection that would withhold it from creating anything.

2.) God, in giving us free will, is not restricted in creation by any supposed imperfection. He can create what He wants and can create it to be any way.

The argument the a perfect being cannot create imperfection is a non-sequitur fallacy, as it does not follow that a perfec being cannot create something imperfect.
On top of that, we do not possess the knowledge to claim that God's creation is imperfect.

As for everything concerning the Bible, I do not personally use the Bible as a foundation for my beliefs and only accept those parts which have been historically verified.

3.) An omniscient being could change the future if it had wanted to, but God has granted us free will, thus the future He sees are (or are the result of) the decisions we have chosen of make.
Secondly, if God did not know what emotions felt like, then He would not be omniscient.
Further, knowing what's going to happen before it does, does not mean you will not or cannot feel emotions about it; if you know you grandmother will die due to cancer does that mean you can't be sad when it happens?

4.) Once again, God's perfection (in the sense that He is maximally great) does not restrict Him from doing anything, including giving humans free will.
In granting us free will, He is giving us the ability to do as we please; any restriction to that would not be free will. Removing our ability to choose to do evil is removing our free will. God granted us free will because He wanted us to be able to make our own decisions.

5.) The problem of evil isn't really a problem at all.
Firstly, you don't know if God has morally good reasons for permitting suffering.
Secondly, it isn't God's responsibility to fix the problems we created.

I might also add that I do no believe that Gos would send somebody to Hell who did not know or understand that Christian religion. God is just, and to do that would be extremely unjust.

6.) As far as Hell is concerned, I do not believe in the doctrine of Hell.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
I can't be bothered to answer

I can't be bothered to answer every obsurdity you said in your post but cannot hold myself, when I saw this:

"As for everything concerning the Bible, I do not personally use the Bible as a foundation for my beliefs and only accept those parts which have been historically verified."

lol, so you accept no part of the bible?

and this:

5.) The problem of evil isn't really a problem at all.
Just claiming that it is not a problem won't make the problem of evil go away. This kind of lack of reasoning is typical of a christian.
Accept something because someone else says so.

"Firstly, you don't know if God has morally good reasons for permitting suffering."
An omnipotent god that can do the impossible, has no moral reason to torture people like this. (Drowning innocent kids with tsunamis)
There is always a better way for an omnipotent being that cares.

"Secondly, it isn't God's responsibility to fix the problems we created."
If you see a your baby toying with a real gun and pointing it to his sister, would you just watch and let it happen?
If no, they you are a better person then your god.
Since you prefer to educate and teach instead of letting confusion have its own course.

beneames's picture
I'm not sure if you've

I'm not sure if you've thought this one through Jeff. So people dying is evil? What if death is neutral, just a part of the world we're in? Everybody dies. Some by tsunami, some by cancer, some by violence, some by hunger and malnutrition. Would it be more good if God saved us from everything and we never died? Maybe it's mercy that we only get a few years here, and much longer in the next world when everything is better? I think this one is like a proving ground. What kind of person are you? What do you give your life to?

Death and suffering happens, and it can either make us stronger as a community or weaker.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Yes if some drugs your son

Yes if some drugs your son and kills him by overdose.
then he puts forward the following statements:

"What if death is neutral, just a part of the world we're in? Everybody dies. Some by tsunami, some by cancer, some by violence, some by hunger and malnutrition."

If he puts forward such statements do you consider him evil?

Your god created us sick and demands us to be well.
Pure evil no question.

"Maybe it's mercy that we only get a few years here, and much longer in the next world when everything is better?"
It would be mercy if we all agreed that we are suffering here.(a lot of people are happy living)
As far as I know your god is forcing his 'mercy' on everybody just like any other tyrant.
Not only that , he is so evil that he dares to claim that he gives US a choice in the matter. What a hypocrite!

This is a prime example how religion makes people say and do incredibly horrible things.
"So people dying is evil?"
You sound like Hitler when he fired on his own fellow Germans that were protesting on the boats.

yes killing people is evil and don't try to soften it by saying 'dying', your god ain't just letting us dying, he is killing us deliberately of old age.

Where a good and loving god would not make such an evil thing but would instead;
-Let us live and experience life with ease and be there for us when we need him.
-Offer the option to join him in heaven when ever we like not force it upon us with a threat of eternal torture.(not even just)
-Offer the option to return to earth after if we decide to join our family back on earth.

Your god is evil,an extremist and a hypocrite to say the least.

"Would it be more good if God saved us from everything and we never died? "
yea it would be nice, but would be nicer to show himself for a change like a true father.
(well maybe not everything, don't be an extremist)

beneames's picture
Yes if someone drugs your son

Yes if someone drugs your son it's definitely evil. This is exactly the kind of evil that needs to be sorted out. In the next world this won't happen.
"A lot of people are happy living here." Yes but there are also over 20million slaves still in the world, for example. They're not happy and that definitely needs to be sorted out.
We're both talking about people suffering at the hands of other people here.
You're pretty extreme in your logic. I believe that it's never right for a person to take the life of another person. Never. I think that disqualifies me from being a "tyrant."
Your arguments against us dying in this world don't make sense if there is a better world to come. Then yes it would be mercy to keep this one shortish (even 90 years is a blip in eternity). The bible perspective is that we are all made to live forever. The real question is: why are we here in the first place? And I think that's where free will is so important. This is the place to prove our character.
Your requirements for a loving God are pretty selfish. It sounds like you want to be god yourself.
I've talked about hell elsewhere with you. It's not a biblical perspective. God doesn't have eternal punishment in store for anyone. There's no threat of eternal torture.
I have no problem with God being in charge of when we die, because I believe he is perfectly good and perfectly wise. The only one who could have that responsibility.

Lmale's picture
Erm 2 points:

Erm 2 points:
1 in the bible people lived past 700 years and it clearly states god decided not to allow that anymore therefor killing everyone of old age 600 or so years early i consider that technically murder.
2 why this next world ive heard you mention it before but what would be the point i mean surely god didnt need a trial run lol

beneames's picture
1 Isn't it still death if

1 Isn't it still death if people die at 700 or 100?
2 Not a trial run for God, but a test of character for us I guess. This is the world where God mostly stays out of the way, which gives us free will. The Bible perspective is that God wants us to discover what he's like and then choose to live for him. But people can choose not to, or even not to believe God exists. It's proper freedom. It wouldn't really be free will if God was obvious to everyone. How could you say no to a supreme being with ultimate power?
In the next world God is present (heaven and earth come together), but we're not really sure how it works or what it looks like. Not even sure what the people who don't want anything to do with God are doing. It seems from the last chapter of the Bible that they are there as well, just not participating somehow.

Lmale's picture
Okay im going to tell you

Okay im going to tell you your going to die at 30 from old age despite the fact that before you old age killed at 80-100 for no reason other than i felt like it. Would you be happy no you wouldnt but thats what you claim your 'loving' god did.

Shock of God's picture
"lol, so you accept no part

"lol, so you accept no part of the bible?"

There are parts of the Bible that have been historically verified.

"Just claiming that it is not a problem won't make the problem of evil go away."

I did much more than merely claim it not being a problem.

You cannot know that God does not have morally sufficient reasons for permitting suffering.
Secondly, omnipotence is not defined as being able to do what is logically impossible. What is logically impossible cannot be done by anything ever. Omnipotence is defined as being able to so everything, that which is capable of being done.

And you analogy about a baby toying with a gun is not analogous to what I said.

If I dirty up all the dishes in the house, is it your responsibility to clean them? No.

Why is it God's responsibility to is problems He didn't create?

Lmale's picture
You claim your god created

You claim your god created everything so everything is his responsibility simple as that.
You aslo claim hes omniscient so when he started he already saw the trillions of people suffering because he didnt bother to leave a teeny weeny bit of evidence wed even accept a 4.5 billion year old god was here graffiti.

Lmale's picture
Good points i find most

Good points i find most christians tend to avoid considering the flood i once went into detail describing what likely happened if it happened and all i got in response was the men we evil so god stopped them.
I pointed out gods taken people to heaven alive according to the bible why did he not do that for the innocents can you guess their response. You dont understand because your not christian.

beneames's picture
The first 11 chapters of the

The first 11 chapters of the Bible are written in mythological language. It's not trying to describe actual history. It's more intent on communicating meaning. 2 of every animal? Please. Not your fault for thinking that's what we believe though. The majority of Christians do - people who haven't considered that genesis was written to people in ancient near-Eastern Mesopotamia, not to people in the 21st century.

Lmale's picture
You think youve won with this

You think youve won with this mythological language well you just did the opposite since you've claimed parts of your book was not meant to be true you cant prove the rest of the book was not just mythological language and therefor not meant to be true.

Ellie Harris's picture
" God chooses to create

" God chooses to create because he wants to. God creates us with the ability to choose (eg to love or hate, to create or destroy)."

Aren't you skipping the part where you attempt to offer concrete proof of this position that God exist? I cannot see why anyone could speak on the behavior of something, without knowing it exist.

beneames's picture
You can't prove or disprove

You can't prove or disprove God with concrete evidence. I was just trying to give you a more accurate picture of what Christians actually claim.

Ellie Harris's picture
"First of all, I'd like to

"First of all, I'd like to point out that if atheism rests on the validation of a universal negative, and a universal negative cannot be validated, then atheism is an untenable position."

Atheism is a lack of belief in an extraordinary claim put forth by theist. You claim a god/gods are real, that they are aware of humanity, & etc. The burden of proving that claim rests firmly with theist. Lack of belief in a claim until it is clearly demonstrated to be true, doesn't mean the claim is proven to be false.

Zyklus's picture


Lmale's picture
It boggles the mind that

It boggles the mind that theists cannot accept the simple definition of atheism.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"A lot of people are happy

"A lot of people are happy living here." Yes but there are also over 20million slaves still in the world, for example. They're not happy and that definitely needs to be sorted out"

Which part of my statement did you miss?
"It would be mercy if we ALL agreed that we are suffering here.(a lot of people are happy living)"

The idea that god is good because he is an extremist, and can only see things like 'Kill the good with the bad mentality' is the reason he is a tyrant.
The Flood, Hell, Heaven, are all examples of him being an extremist(in the theology)

You're pretty extreme in your logic. I believe that it's never right for a person to take the life of another person. Never. I think that disqualifies me from being a "tyrant."
How come, that your unfounded claim of me calling YOU a tyrant?, (which I didn't do) supports your other unfounded claim of me being extreme in my logic??
Please show me how they are even related? I called your god a Tyrant not you, because he is one and I supported that claim with logic.
Which part was extreme?
The part where he kills us of old age just because he can kill the good with the bad?
Or the part where he kills innocent children in horrible ways just because there are horrible people that deserve it somehow?
Why does a child need to burn alive slowly?
Does this god of yours have some decency? or is it OK for god to kill people in the most horrible ways because he is god?

You seriously need to watch this with some deep thought since it points out most of the flaws in your arguments.

"Your arguments against us dying in this world don't make sense if there is a better world to come."
Just because you were told that there is a better place to come, it does not mean it is the truth.
Even if we were sure of this unsupported claim, God has no right to choose for us.
He has no right to force us out of this world against our will.
Then threaten us also in this life with the threat of hell if we don't agree with his theology.

This is a very simple concept.

Your god kills people randomly from aging/accidents/etc.. so that they are forced to make a choice between accepting his rule or go burn in hell.
"The real question is: why are we here in the first place? And I think that's where free will is so important. This is the place to prove our character."
Did the child that burned alive prove his character? See the problem with your logic? God brings people to the life to suffer according to your logic. When he is omniscient and knows already our character, we simply don't need to prove it to him.

"Your requirements for a loving God are pretty selfish. It sounds like you want to be god yourself."
I believe I am god, just not the type of god you have in mind. I am much better person then your god.
Even you are a much better person then your god, you just don't know it yet.

"God doesn't have eternal punishment in store for anyone. There's no threat of eternal torture."
That is how Christians twist the truth today, in the past people died by the hands of Christians if they dared to say such a heresy.

Revelation 21:8
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

You can claim that this is not god but was added by humans later, but with the same argument I could say that this is the true word of god and your idea of a good god is the wrong one.
This is what happens when you refuse to use the scientific method and base your life on what other people claim without evidence.
1000+ different denominations of the same religion because everybody starts cherry picking what he likes.

I have no problem with God being in charge of when we die, because I believe he is perfectly good and perfectly wise. The only one who could have that responsibility.


Are we taking about the same guy who cannot even do the most basic thing every human can do if he wants?

Your God is the emblem of incompetence taken to the extreme stupidity.

Being Omnipotent but to forgive he cannot just do it by flicking his finger.
He has to transform into his son , be born to a virgin, get himself crucified, get killed, resurrect and fly back to heaven.
This human sacrifice with all those conditions somehow are what god needs to be able to forgive.

I wouldn't even trust your god as my cleaner, since he might just flood my home just to clean the floor. LOL but true:)

beneames's picture
You're bringing up some

You're bringing up some really good points. Sorry I'm misunderstanding some of what you're saying. I shouldn't have conversations like this when I'm tired. I've got a 6month old who's still not sleeping through the night :(

Some of these are literary discussions.
The flood. The first 11 chapters of the Bible are written in ancient mythological language. It's not so much to describe an actual event, but to communicate meaning. Kind of like Little Red Riding Hood, but with a lot more depth.
Heaven and hell. We've already discussed this a bit. That verse you pointed out is in Revelation, which is like an apocalyptic-style epic poem. There are also dragons and flying horse-lions that sting people with their scorpion tails. It's not meant to be read literally, although some crazy Christians try to. We know how apocalyptic language works because we have quite a few examples from Jesus' time. Jesus himself used it in Matthew (can't remember the chapter off the top of my head). It can't mean that all the evil people are actually burned forever because in the next chapter (the last image in the Bible) it says...
"Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will be permitted to enter through the gates of the city and eat the fruit from the tree of life. Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie." It's figurative language, but the end of the story clearly doesn't show evil people burning in hell forever. They're just not participating somehow. Maybe they just don't want to? Maybe because God is "in the city" and they don't like God?

If you take out the hell idea from your arguments it would clear things up a little.

That's a good question about why God transformed into a human and died etc. It's a pretty big answer, but the short one is that in this world God has chosen to do things through humans. That's part of the Adam and Eve story: Here's the world people, it's a gift, look after it. People living selfishly screws it all up (eg. slavery, stealing resources from poor countries, fossil fuels that bring on climate change). But it wouldn't be right for God to take back that gift and to come in all guns blazing and sort it all out himself (or to destroy it). So the solution had to be a human-centred, meeker, more respectful one. Jesus' life, death and resurrection was how God did it. There's a lot more to it than that. That's thousands of pages of theology overly-simplified into a few sentences. Ah well.

Lmale's picture
Umm why would we need a proof

Umm why would we need a proof or test for charactor your fucking imaginary frient is omniscient you do realise that means he knows EVERYTHING so he has no readon for testing.
Your imaginary friend also omnipotent why did he not find a good way to deal with the hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent babies and children that you claim he killed by a slow flood thats fucking torturous. Can you even imagine the flood that you claim your loving merciful just god caused.

beneames's picture
No flood. It's mythological

No flood. It's mythological language.
I don't think it's so much God testing our character as him providing a stage that gives us the opportunity to grow in character, or not.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Beneames, you are just trying

Beneames, you are just trying to find any other possible solution to the contradiction with failed logic and changing subject.

Lets start by explaining what "communicate meaning" means?
What lesson can one learn from the flood? That if you piss off god he kills everything including babies/animals/plants?

So the guy who wrote revelation was not inspired by god? and when he said that all "the unbelieving" "their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur" was just a lie?

If you confirm this, that The bible contains lies, then Jesus himself could be a lie which supports the idea that if you take out the parallels of the military campaign of the Flavians in Judea from the gospels, all you have left are pieces of other religions inserted by the flavian literary team.
You need a re-watch of this video and understand that the early church fathers were the flavians. This is a fact.

You even resorted to change what Jesus said.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

If you end up changing what Jesus said then you are no better then all the other 1000+ versions of Christianity that claim that their version is the right one.

Why don't we just say that that book is unreliable and if there is any truth to it, it comes from the religions that it was copied from.
The flood story comes from previous religions.
Have a nice time watching this fact:

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
An other thing,

An other thing,
How do you explain:

You are only a christian because your ancestors killed people like you.

Lmale's picture
I was going to mention that,

I was going to mention that, you basically claim part of the bible was bullshit yet claim that the rest is gods honest truth.
Sorry theist logic does not work in the real world.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"That's a good question about

"That's a good question about why God transformed into a human and died etc. It's a pretty big answer, but the short one is that in this world God has chosen to do things through humans."

Thought that this part was so ridiculous that it doesn't deserve an answer but yet again if I say nothing one may think that it makes sens somehow.

So according to you, god can find no better way to involve humans then a filthy human sacrifice of vicarious redemption?
This notion is so repulsive that it shames Christians by even hinting about it.

If I was god(and I'm not the best problem solver) I would just show myself and let the humans choose if they want to be with me or live alone on earth.
That is much much better solution then kill them of old age so they are forced to choose me or go to hell. Though this option was only available after some 100 000 years that he created humans.
So before he just kills them without the chance of salvation.

Now this option can ONLY be available if there is a filthy human sacrifice of god to himself.
So ridiculous and repulsive that you should be ashamed of suggesting that your god is so NOT Omnipotent that he requires something this horrible "to do things through humans."
I mean your god must be incredibly stupid or likes human sacrifices to choose this option out of the billion+ better options.


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