Why does god allow suffering?

79 posts / 0 new
Last post
Jeff Vella Leone's picture
you seem to fail to

you seem to fail to understand my central point.

It does not matter what rewards you get after you pass the test.

The act of testing is evil in itself.

A loving person(good god) would not test his loved ones by making them suffer unless there is a very good reason for it.

An omnipotent being(theistic god) has NO JUSTIFIABLE REASON to test anybody because he can easily solve every problem he himself created in the first place. without the need of the unjust test.(creating some people disabled)

A Theistic god has no good reason to test us but only bad reasons to do so.
Thus a Theistic god can only be an evil god or an indifferent one, never a good god)

You keep ignoring the point because you are in denial.

You cannot accept that your excuse of a test is an excuse that shows that your god is evil and not a good god as you wish he is.
Or better put, as you were brainwashed/conditioned to believe without a doubt.

Just because a book claims he is good, it does not mean he is.
We are judged by our actions and so is your god, his actions (including your excuses) show that he is quite an evil, sadistic and an unjust god.

So if you wish to insist on the claim that "life is a test" then you MUST be coherent and say that your god is evil because the only possible (omnipotent & omniscient)god which would make life as a test is an evil one.

Vincent Paul Tran's picture
[Jeff] "An omnipotent being

[Jeff] "An omnipotent being(theistic god) has NO JUSTIFIABLE REASON to test anybody because he can easily solve every problem he himself created in the first place. without the need of the unjust test.(creating some people disabled)"

I think you are putting unneccessary constraints on a potential god here. One, he doesn't have to be omnipotent (what does that even mean?) Second, there is precedence for an authority figure using tests to improve people's lives. I had to take a driving test to drive a car. I had to be tested to get my scholarship to college. I am currently being tested by the courts by being on probation instead of facing court (which is also a test) and possible jailtime.

So people test each other all the time, sometimes for justified reasons. Why can't a god? I am not restricting myself to the god who magically knows and can do everything (I think the mr deity thread you posted showed the insanity of even considering that as a possibility)


Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"I think you are putting

"I think you are putting unneccessary constraints on a potential god here. One, he doesn't have to be omnipotent (what does that even mean?)"
(theistic god)
A theistic god is a god with a character, intellect, he is claimed to be omniscient, omnipotent(can do everything or has unlimited power), and is of perfect love and justice.

That is the theistic god, the god of Christianity and Islam.
(this is where knowing the theology comes handy)

That type of god has no moral reason to test anybody with a cruel and unjust test of life, that creates some people disabled and some people not.

Therefor, if he is making it as a test is because he is immoral= evil god, not a loving and just one.

Pointing the contradiction.

Vincent Paul Tran's picture
[Jeff]"A theistic god is a

[Jeff]"A theistic god is a god with a character, intellect, he is claimed to be omniscient, omnipotent(can do everything or has unlimited power), and is of perfect love and justice.}

Jeff, I think we've had this conversation before. Theistic god does not equal all powerful anything. the two should not be convoluted

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Please deliver a definition

Please deliver a definition of a theistic god then.

Because you are quick to dismiss all points on just a word you disagree about, but are not ready to explain why you disagree with it.

As far as I know, as long as there is a Thesitic god that fits the definition I gave, you must accept it as valid for the argument.

I still don't see why all this resistance on basic common sens things.

Is that definition the correct one for Christianity/Islam?

If yes, then it is a type of theistic god.

And I am using this type of a theistic god for the relevant argument.

Bringing the idea that there are other types is irrelevant, and a dodge from the main topic.

GoldenLotus's picture
"Everything is for a reason.

"Everything is for a reason. Its the Same God that gave you everything, but don't think you won't be tested like others. Like I said a disabled child is a test of father's patience and so much more. So a such child is a Test...."
Are you hearing yourself? So the god that you praise so much is the kind of god who uses and sacrifices an innocent child simply to TEST the father's patience? That same child who is going to have to live their whole life with a disability that may cause them to suffer their whole lives? Are you kidding?
If "everything is for a reason", what is the reason for god to allow a woman to be raped and then be mercilessly punished instead of persecuting those rapists who committed such a crime? A girl raped by a relative, for example, and is then being married off to her rapist is one of the cruelest things that could ever happen to her. Do you as a fellow human actually believe that this is acceptable?

Now tell me, what is the reason for all these injustices? I hope you're not going to tell me that only god knows and that we should not question him or that we humans do not have the capacity to fully comprehend the workings of god.

Bernard's picture
Jamal knows his book in and

Jamal knows his book in and out, no question.
It looks like he feels the need to convert his readers.
I like books, as long as they tell me a story.

marz1969's picture
Seems like a pointless debate

Seems like a pointless debate. He will never admit it. Surprise surprise.

ThePragmatic's picture



"I would like to ask those who don't believe in GOD. Have they have gone the Books revealed by God. If not please do so then pass a judgement. If yes then tell whats holding you back from believing in One GOD Almighty."

First, to be perfectly clear, I haven't read the Quran. I have read about it, I have read a multitude of quotes from it and I have read other peoples analysis of it.

The answer to your question can't be summarized much shorter or more to the point than what CyberLN wrote: "A complete lack of evidence."

You keep quoting the Quran over and over. To me, the Quran does not qualify as evidence of anything supernatural at all.

I think the Quran is written by men, without any supernatural involvement. In the same way I think the Talmud, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the scriptures of The Church of Scientology, etc, were all written by men, completely without any involvement of gods, angels or magic.

Supernatural accounts like the ones described in religious scriptures, suffers from a complete lack of proof, a complete lack of credibility and a complete lack of corroboration.

What is it that makes you trust the Quran?
How did you reach your assessment that the Quran is true?

jamalt's picture
Do you believe in History? Do

Do you believe in History? Do you believe in Life? Do you believe in Death? Do you not wake up after going to sleep? Do you believe in Fate? Do you believe in Angels? Do you believe in the Devil? Do you believe in Hardwork? Do you believe in Patience? Do you believe you have a Soul? Do you believe in Natural Birth? Do you believe in Cure ? Do you believe people suffer? Do you believe in Earthquakes? Do you believe in Science? Do you believe in Sky, Sun, Moon , Earth, Rain, Fruits, Wildlife and Sealife. Do you believe in Birds, Do you believe in Winters, Summers, Autumn and Spring, Do you believe in Fire, Do you believe in Snowfall, Do you believe in Rivers and Oceans, Do you believe in Eating and Drinking, Do you believe in reproduction, Do you believe in reward? Do you believe in Purity? Do you believe in Love? Do you believe in Hate? Do you believe in Justice? Do you believe in Respect? Do you believe in Parents? Do you believe in your Children? Do you believe in everything around you?

If you believe in whatever is around you. Then connect everything history with Prophets, Life and Death with Life after Death, Reward with Good ( Paradise ) and Bad ( Hell ) .

Everything you believe in is Mentioned in The Quran. Even what you know and dont know (About what will happen in afterlife). What science knows and not knows. Quran doesnt only tell about all these believes it also tells us how to live with these in a way that is beneficial for us and others. If you believe in everything believe in the One who has created everything and then Gifted us a Book that not only confirms it but also tells about signs so that people may believe. I would like you to visit the page and read from the Quran. Quran will answer everything I promise. But you can't argue without reading it. It wouldnt be fair of anyone of us to jump to the conclusion just like that. Listen to it you'll feel like God is answering all of your questions at ONCE. Trust me you asked me a question now please trust me with an answer that might change your life for GOOD! But you must listen to it for once.

Please go through this just once. Im sure it will help. Just dont make any pre judgement. Go through it with a clear mind.


Nyarlathotep's picture
Do you believe in Using

Do you believe in Using capitalization in a Standard manner?

ThePragmatic's picture


"Do you..."
"... believe in History?" - Of course, there is lots of evidence to support recorded history.
"... believe in Life?" - Of course.
"... believe in Death?" - Of course.
"... not wake up after going to sleep?" - So far, yes. What's the point of the question?
"... believe in Fate?" - No, only in the "Terminator" sense: "There is no fate but what we make".
"... believe in Angels?" - Absolutely not, that's child fairy tails.
"... believe in the Devil?" - Absolutely not, that's child fairy tails.
"... believe in Hardwork?" - Sure (if you mean "hard work").
"... believe in Patience?" - Sure. I'm trying to have some right now.
"... believe you have a Soul?" - No. Nothing supernatural, just consciousness.
"... believe in Natural Birth?" - Sure, if "natural" means what I think you mean.
"... believe in Cure?" - Eh... cure of what?
"... believe people suffer?" - Absolutely, been there done that.
"... believe in Earthquakes?" - Sure. Plate tectonics, seismic waves.
"... believe in Science?" - Absolutely. Without it we wouldn't be using this forum.
"... believe in Sky, Sun, Moon , Earth, Rain, Fruits, Wildlife and Sealife?" - Of course.
"... believe in Birds?" - Yes, them too.
"... believe in Winters, Summers, Autumn and Spring?" - Eh... yes. Been there, done that.
"... believe in Fire?" - Yes, I have burned myself quite a few times.
"... believe in Snowfall?" - Sure, I have snow outside right now.
"... believe in Rivers and Oceans?" - Yes, I also believe in fish. I like fishing.
"... believe in Eating and Drinking?" - Sure. Been there, done that.
"... believe in reproduction?" - Yup, I've tested it successfully two times.
"... believe in reward?" - Eh... reward for what?
"... believe in Purity?" - Depends on what you mean by "purity".
"... believe in Love?" - In a rational, down to Earth kind of way, sure.
"... believe in Hate?" - Absolutely.
"... believe in Justice?" - Hmm, tricky one. Justice is subjective and relative.
"... believe in Respect?" - Sure, but I get way too little of it.
"... believe in Parents?" - Yes. I had a couple of them and I am one right now.
"... believe in your Children?" - Of course.
"... believe in everything around you?" - Eh... what is "everything" supposed to mean?

I don't get your massive block of random questions. Is there a point to any of this?

"Trust me you asked me a question now please trust me with an answer that might change your life for GOOD!"

But you didn't answer at all. You avoided to answer.

I asked:
What is it that makes you trust the Quran?
How did you reach your assessment that the Quran is true?

Do you not know why you think it is true? Have you not asked yourself that question?

You say you have studied other religions as well. Why do you think they are false and Islam is true?

jamalt's picture
In the name of Allah, the

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

When you first go to a Doctor how do you know if he's the right choice, why do you trust him with a Cure? Because He's a Doctor. What if he doesnt diagnose you right. What if he gives you the wrong medicine? One might Die right? What if he gives you the right medicine and you're all healthy and happy once again. Now the Question is how do you Trust any Doctor until and uncless you don't visit and get the prescription. Then again there's another thing "Word Of Mouth" a close one refers you to a doctor he says is Trustworthy. So you'll go visit and might or might not develop trust. If the trust is not developed you don't go around asking others to visit the Doctor. You don't even wana talk about the Doctor. So my dear my Doctor. My Creator. My Master. My Employer. My Trust. My Everything is Allah. Whenever any Good happens to me its because of Allah's mercy and kindness. Whenever anything bad comes up its because of my mistakes and negligence. So I go to a mosque stand humbly before my Lord Allah One God, God of Jesus Pbuh and Moses pbuh and Abraham pbuh and Muhammad Pbuh and millions of others Peace be Upon them. I stand humbly and ask for anything that is good for me. Allah grants me if its beneficial for me in the world and afterlife. sooner or later Allah grants it. That's my Trust. I visited Makkah in 2007 and now im going to go next month too. I swear upon my Allah that was I asked from Allah was granted. I had the best time of my life visiting the historical holy places it was really peaceful and meaningful. I can't Thank Allah much for letting me be a muslim and not be someone who worships idols. If I didnt trust Allah I would be lost like those who worship other than One God. The moment I laid my eyes on Kaaba- The House of Allah- I was hooked for life. Now that's trust. Trusting in Forgiveness of Allah trusting in Mercy and Love of Allah. Trusting in the Word of Allah The Quran which is still in its original form and will always be In Sha Allah.(If Allah WIlls). Allah promised on protecting Quran by saying "We have without doubt, sent down the message and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption.)" (15:9) Did Allah not fulfill his promise. Look at millions who have memorized the holy Quran by Heart in Arabic not matter where ever they are from. That's Trust! Allah also promised to make mummy of Pharaoh who was drowned in the Sea an admonishing example for future generations to come. Allah says" We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah)." (Quran 10:90)

(It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! (Quran:10:91)

“This day shall We save you in your body, that you may be a Sign to those who come after you! But verily, many among mankind are neglectful of Our Signs” (Quran 10:92)

Allah says “(such is) the promise of Allah, never does Allah fail in His promise” [Al Qur’an 39:20]

Allah fulfilled all the promises how can you not trust someone's word after that? Allah says " Allah the Most high, says,

“Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion, the one which He has chosen for them and that He will change (their state), after the fear in which they (lived), to one of security and peace: They will worship Me (alone) and not associate any partner with Me. If any do reject Faith after this, they are rebellious and wicked.”

“No authority has he (i.e. Satan) over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord.” [Al Qur’an 16:99]

“Without doubt, amongst men, the nearest of kin to Ibrahim, are those who follow him, as are also this Messenger and those who believe: And Allah is the Wali [protecting friend] of those who have faith.”

[Al Qur’an 3:68]

I also believe in the Books and Prophets before Quran and Muhammad Pbuh. I believe that Original Bible was the word of Allah. Allah means One God. Like Elah meant One God In Hebrew. and that Allah begets not, nor is Allah begotten. In the Bible Jesus Pbuh said that Your Lord and my Lord is ONE. Then why does many associate partners and sons with God. Jesus Pbuh was a prophet of Almighty Allah. Moses Pbuh was a prophet as was Abraham Pbuh and Adam Pbuh. I Trust the Quran in it because it makes a lot of sense. The Quran is still its in original state so original that we read it in the language it was revealed. It clears all consufions that other religions have. Other religions have idol worshipers, Sons, partners, pagan Gods. The Quran states clearly everything and it was revealed for all Mankind for the times to come not just people of Isreal or Arabs but the Quran states:

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 39 Surah Zumar verse 41:
41 Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth for (instructing) mankind. He then that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

When these verses were revealed to Prophet Muhammad Pbuh the Jews came to him and told him by God if theses verses were revealed to us we would have celebrated on its revelation. The verses are :

This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed my favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. Qur'an, 5:3

Read Quran you'll fall in Love with Your God. Who is also My God. God is One. Quran is the only Book that's 100% Word of God. Allah

5.15. O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

9.30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Al-Maidah Aya (115) "And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (116) "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (117) "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." (118) Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires). (119) To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things"

ThePragmatic's picture
Ah, so you just believe

Ah, so you just believe because somebody told you it's true.
That's... repulsively disrespecting to yourself.

By the way, quoting a book I already told you I don't think is the least bit trustworthy, isn't going to make any difference. It would be more credible to quote Homer Simpson.

Nutmeg's picture
You should stop posting this

You should stop posting this garbage, because no one reads it. Just stick to amputating limbs, screwing underage girls and killing apostates.

Conan's picture
Sounds like Allah is really

Sounds like Allah is really looking out for us. We probably don't even need doctors at all.

Too bad we are already damned for turning away from the light.

What might suck even worse is dying and finding out that it was actually the Greeks that had it right.

You will be met by the judges of Hades for not praying to Zeus. You will not get to go to Elysium and hang out with Persephone, you will be punished by the Titans in Tartarus.

Bernard's picture
Please, can someone stop

Please, can someone stop Jamal from vomiting all over this thread ?
I feel like talking to a mirror.
Is there some tool to hide someone ?
Oh, make my day :-)

A farmer and a priest were walking in the fields.
Look, said the farmer, what a nice harvest of corn that will be.
Yes, said the priest, thanks to god.
Ten steps further : look, said the farmer, beautiful tomatoes.
Sure, said te priest, again thanks to our lord.
The farmer points to the other side of the road, a desolate piece of land with a few thistles.
Look, said the farmer.
The priest started laughing.
Well, said the farmer, I left god farming on his own here.

Miguel763's picture
This is a lot of discussion

This is a lot of discussion over a question that has a simple answer, there is no god! The end.

JuxtaposedLineage's picture
If refering to the judeo

If refering to the judeo-christian God the bible states,
Luke 19:27 "...as for those enimies of mine who did not want me for their king bring them here and slaughter them in my prescence."
Leviticus 26:29 "Instead of meat you will eat your sons and your daughters."
Mathew 10:34 "I have come to set a man against his father a daughter against his her mother a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law..."
Matthew 15:4 "...Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death."
But you know, I suppose god opts out of this in Jer. 3:12 "for my love is unfailing says the Lord; I shall not keep up my anger for ever."
(I would site other religious texts but I do not have the time, used the bible for expemlamentary purposes)
nonetheless, it seems that religion obviously has no stance on whats good or bad at all. People can commit atrocious acts upon society in the name of religion, because the applied doctronies are often circumnavigatable and actually don't have any social order or rules, other than the homeostasis of dedicated compliance, recognition and pretentious praise of god/gods. In laymans terms the most emphasized part of religion is the authority of the religion, requires not reason, but adherence.

Applegene's picture
Why does God allow suffering?

Why does God allow suffering?
You could also ask...
“Why are we as we are now, if Adam and Eve were like that? (In paradise where there was no suffering) So that led us to a consideration of the doctrine of the fall and that is the point at which we have arrived. We saw that all men and women are as they are because of the fall. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and that led to their fall (Gen. 3); and in working out the doctrine of original sin, as it is called, we saw that men and women, as the result of this, are in a fallen condition. They are guilty before God, their very nature is polluted and perverted, and they are quite helpless - helpless especially in the matter of returning to God and of arriving at a knowledge of God (Rom. 5:12). You remember we summed it up by putting it like this: that you look at a man or woman today and you say, with that Puritan John Howe -'God once dwelt here.' Man is a ruin, a ruin of his former self. And there we looked at him, driven out of Paradise, out of the Garden of God, and eating his bread by the sweat of his brow[…]”

Excerpt From: Martyn Lloyd-Jones. “Great Doctrines of the Bible: God the Father, God the Son/ God the Holy Spirit/ the Church and the Last Things.” Crossway, 2012-10-29T22:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

The Bible teaches us that Man was once perfect, but Sin entered into the world. Sin are not actions, Sin pollutes man, turns even the holly law of God into death and condemnation for men. The world is today as it is, because sin is in the world. We are not evolving into perfection, in a sense we are becoming like animals. Don't blame God for Hate, wars, disease, poverty, hunger, blame yourself. The Greeks stumble upon a truth "know thyself". Do you know that you are a sinner like me and that nothing but the Grace of God can save you from the Hell that we so richly deserve.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

The Bible never justifies the existence of God, it simply declares it. We look at the world and try to understand it, where do we come from? What's the meaning of life? What happens when we die? Is there life after death?
To this questions science and Human reasoning have no answer. We are Ignorant, sinful and unable to understand, don't lie to yourself into believing that you do or some day will understand.
It's only because of the power of God thought his son Christ Jesus that I can say together with Paul:

“And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
your reply makes no sens if

your reply makes no sens if god truly created us perfect, then we would have been without sin.

So the bible lies about god creating us perfect.

BTW man did not fall on their own.
God had to try really hard to make Adam fall from grace.

he created Eve after torturing Adam(take his rib)
he made Eve too attractive and convincing to confuse Adam
He asked Adam not to eat from the tree at the center so just like innocent kids he would do just that
After seeing that all this failed to make Adam disobey him, he sent a talking snake into the garden
He just sat and watched, when the snake was lying and then not give enough information to Adam to make a better judgment.
instead of teaching Adam a lesson so Adam learns from his mistake he is give a punishment of complete deportation from the garden.

If there is a more immoral creature in this story is the god character who basically engineered for those events to happen so he can enjoy punishing Adam.

Something similar happened with Job.

"To this questions science and Human reasoning have no answer."

NO!! You have no answer, because you are in denial that your god(if he exists) would be the most cruel and unjust creature ever imaginable.

Applegene's picture
I understand you more than

I understand you more than you can imagine. I myself was once like you. The main question would be if God is God (with all the attributes I'm sure you hear before) why did he allow sin to come into the world. And the answers should be "I don't know".

Not only that, but the bible also teaches that:

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A Christian was chosen before the fall of man, before creation itself.

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5, 11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

By the counsel of his own will, by his grace, for his glory. I am not a Christian because I choose God, on the contrary, there is nothing good in me, I know better people than me, and who ever is reading this post could be a better man than me, but it's because of his Grace that I am who I am.

In Romans Paul knowing that a person would be offended by all this wrote:

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:16-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"I understand you more than

"I understand you more than you can imagine. I myself was once like you."
I doubt, but we will see.

"The main question would be if God is God (with all the attributes I'm sure you hear before) why did he allow sin to come into the world. And the answers should be "I don't know".

The answer is not "I don't know" though is it.

Because when you include the central attributes of a theistic god, there is no place for any good intentions.
There cannot be any good intentions if he is god and can do everything without the need to do evil things.

"I don't know" is a cop out to not answering some very direct questions.

In the Adam and Eve story, god is clearly depicted as an evil character that engineered Adam deportation(if he had those attributes) but the story is focuses on the blame of Adam because he was deceived by a woman, which was in turn deceived by a snake.(the part where nothing goes in the garden without god knowing or letting it, is ignored, or god mercy is also ignored)

Do you at least acknowledge this or you want to label it as "I don't know" too?

There is no room for a good theistic god given the reality we live in, his actions are clearly evil as described in the book itself.

Yes, you can convince the flock(sheep) that he is a good god or whatever you want with just lies, but do not expect to convince a sane person who can clearly see what a good or bad character look like in a story.

The big bad wolf in Little red riding hood story is an angel compared to god in the Adam and Eve story.
At least the big bad wolf had no evil intentions but was hungry, which is not even a sin. :)
Can we agree to that?

btw what is the point of those quotes?
you failed to explain how they are related to god's own unjust deportation of Adam because god cannot handle the idea of being a decent father and forgive for a change.

Applegene's picture
I think we can agree that the

I think we can agree that the story itself doesn't make sense. To begin God knew what was going to happen even before he created man, so why do it at all. What's even more contradictory is that the bible tells us that man has free will, but in the other hand, the bible is a story with an End. We already know what is going to happen. The attributes of an all knowing eternal God, who is outside time and who controls everything, don't leave room for a man with free will. Both cannot exist.

I think we can agree in this point.

The only word that I can find to describe it is "antinomy"

Science has the same problem, they are looking for a theory of everything (ToE) or final theory, ultimate theory, or master theory. What's stopping them: Laws that explain the movements of planets and the laws that explain the movements of electrons contradict each other. Both laws cannot exist at the same time.

just imagine for a second that there is a God and he created you and that he has all the attributes of God. Could you understand him, could your even know his purpose, origin, will, desires, .. Would there be a way for you to communicate to him. Can a fish understand cosmology? Do you even understand the world that surrounds you? or the technology that is all around you and makes it possible for you to live everyday the way you do.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"Science has the same problem

"The attributes of an all knowing eternal God, who is outside time and who controls everything, don't leave room for a man with free will. Both cannot exist."

"I think we can agree in this point."

just Wow

You know how hard it is to get any christian to state the obvious like that?

I think I never saw it on this site.

So I must congratulate you indeed for getting that far.

You just need to move 1 step further to see that maybe, just maybe, there are contradictions not because you cannot understand god, but maybe, just maybe, they are mistakes very popular by men.

When you reliaze that the bible was writen by men that do so many mistakes that even a first grader has better writing skills, there is no shadow of a doubt that the entire thing is not divinly inspired.

It is actually an insult to your god to say that he is so incompetent to use men and their primitive communication methods to spread his message.
This is quite logical for a character that created the universe with all those glorious and amusing details and vastness.

It is truly an insult to say he used the most unreliable book on earth to convey a message.

"Science has the same problem"

nope it does not.

Humans and scientists have the problem and they are trying to solve it.

Science doesn't have a problem at all, science works, it is humans who do mistakes or lack better understanding of how reality actually works.

That is the beauty of science, it allows people to constantly challenge what we knew to have a better understanding.

That is the flaw of religion, it is forced to be dogmatic to maintain it's validity as inspired by god who is always right.

"just imagine for a second that there is a God and he created you and that he has all the attributes of God. "

According to Christianity he created us in his own image thus we should be able to grasp logic the same way he does.

I used the logic and did just that, I imagined all the possible ways that your god could be a good one and found none.

I concluded that he must be an evil and immoral one, there is no universe where his actions could be justified as anything remotely close as good.

-Starting by creating death itself, a deadline before he judges us without appeal or without even having a fair hearing, where he is judge, jury and executioner.
If I was god, I would wait for someone to be ready to join me, never force a deadline on him/her.

-The evil concept of all theistic religions:
The wish to be a slave and the proposal of a totalitarian belief system.

Only the most horrible god could desire something like that to anybody, to allow his followers to wish they are his slaves.

Would you do that with anybody you know? even worse your own children?

Your god is the most despicable character ever imagined and it is sold to you in the bible as the good guy while his actions and demands are clearly evil.


Let me ask you an "easy" yes/no question:

If your god appeared to you in the flesh just like it appeared to Moses and Abraham(according to the book) and tests your faith by asking you to go in the town square and sacrifice your only son to him there.

Would you do it?

YES or NO answer please.

Applegene's picture
I'm sorry I cannot give you a

I'm sorry I cannot give you a Yes or No answers but it is because you don't understand Christianity that you ask a question like that.

A Christian doesn't get on his knees and waits for a command from above, unfortunately there are many religions that in the name of Jesus do that.

We know his will, everything he wanted to tells us is in the Bible, there are no more messages coming from above, we are waiting for his return, when he will judge the world and resurrect the death and we can finally share his glory.

That is why your question doesn't make sense, if I hear a voice that tells me to do something different that what I find in the Bible, I can tell you without doubt it's not God.

Jesus said the hole Law can be simplified in 2 commandments:

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:37-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham live in a time when the will and plan of the eternal God was unknown for men, he was part of the Plan.

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you know that the real Sin of man is not doing something God doesn't want you to do, it's Pride, it's intellectual pride.

“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

**** Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
You ignored most if not all

You ignored most, if not all the points I made and not even answered my question.

That is sad.

"I'm sorry I cannot give you a Yes or No answers but it is because you don't understand Christianity that you ask a question like that."
No, because I understand it better then you, that I asked a question that points to the contradictions in some of the main pillars of Christianity with just a yes or no answer.

"A Christian doesn't get on his knees and waits for a command from above, unfortunately there are many religions that in the name of Jesus do that."
Nice of you to admit that most Christians do get on their knees and wait for a sign from god.
(pun) imagine if it was a talking snake?

"We know his will"
This is not true, proven by the 1000+ denominations of Christianity.
You guys have no clue of the christian god's will, so many Christians had to die before you guys decided to stop killing each other because of this.

It is quite naive and arrogant to say you know the mind of god even though the facts prove otherwise.
(I am saying this not to offend you or anything but to show you how your religion makes you think)

"everything he wanted to tells us is in the Bible"
Wow how do you know that?
Did you know how many people cut/modified and translated incorrectly the bible?
Just to give you an idea, there are more accepted mistakes(by christian scholars) in the bible than there are words in it.

To claim that nothing was removed by men is so preposterous that I am still laughing right now.
It is well known that men decided to reduce the number of gospels from some 40+ to just 4 that were popular in Rome.
And they were chosen just because they were the few that had a Resurrection narrative, in the others Jesus simply did not even die on the cross.
To make it worse, the resurrection narrative is not given much importance either in those 4 chosen gospels by men.

"there are no more messages coming from above"
Seriously, you think to know the mind of god?
Who do you think you are to expect god to inform you in the bible of his future revelations?

"we are waiting for his return"
In the bible his return was quite clear
Jesus himself made a prophecy that he(or the "Son of man") will return before a generation passes away.
A generation meant 40 years in that time.
This means his return should have been around 70 AD.

In the bible there is no return after that, don't know what lies they told you, but it is not what the bible says.

"That is why your question doesn't make sense, if I hear a voice that tells me to do something different that what I find in the Bible, I can tell you without doubt it's not God."

It is not different from what you find in the bible, Abraham was asked to do exactly that, and I do not see how you think you are superior to Abraham to exempt you from such a demand.

"Abraham live in a time when the will and plan of the eternal God was unknown for men, he was part of the Plan.

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”"

Do you think that it is not required to be as faithful as Abraham now that Jesus has come?
Yes or No
Do you believe in your god as much as your your belief in what is the right thing to do?
Yes or No

You seriously believe that Abraham did not know what was the right thing to do, but he feared god more.

What kind of god would demand you to fear and love him at the same time?

Not answering tells me that you understand that your god is asking an immoral thing, and the only good answer is a NO, regardless of the consequences.

Abraham was a coward and a slave of his god.

I would prefer to go to hell rather then kill my own son or any other human being and so should any decent father.

And what kind of monster would ask a father to kill his own son himself?(for any reason)

This at the very least proves that if the christian god exists, he is not worth of worship.

Applegene's picture
Your Yes or No questions

Your Yes or No questions again show that you don't understand Christianity.

To your second Yes or No question; faith is not something I can produce.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To your third Yes or No question.

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

About your knowledge of the history of the Bible I suggest reading a couple of books from Bart Ehrman (agnostic), many of your points about the bible are urban tales.

A Christian believes that the Bible is inspired by God thought the Holy Spirit, everything God wanted to tells us is there, is complete, final and because is his word, it is the mind of God.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A Christian doesn't have all the answers, there are many things we can't explain. It's only by the will of God that we become Christians, he choose us, predestined us, didn't just improve us or added something to us, we are a new creature born from of water (repentance) and of the spirit.

“For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Just by claiming that i do

Just by claiming that I do not understand won't help your case.

Quoting the bible to support the bible won't help your case.

I tried appealing to reason and logic, but you seem to have only 2 answers.

-accuse me that I don't understand Christianity but not say on what subject.
-put a quote which is irrelevant to the topic at hand. having the bible claiming things means nothing.

I can write a book that says "Jeff is always right", and then every question you pose at me, I give you my answer and I justify that answer by quoting from my book that "Jeff is always right." as the only reason why I am right.
(that is exactly what you are doing)

About Bart Ehrman
Nothing that I said contradicts what he wrote, in fact I draw the phrase about mistakes in the bible exactly how he puts it.

"There are more mistakes in the bible then there are words in it."
-Bart Ehrman

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child"
Seriously grow up since you still think like a child.

When you grow up you will find the truth, and the truth is that Christianity is a fraud done to convince the slaves to accept their fate as slaves and not revolt against the Romans, in a period where the Jews were trying to convince the slaves to revolt against the Romans through their propagandistic religion.

When you grow up you would be free from this cycle of guilt for not being perfect(stoic philosophy of Rome), free from this idea that you are a slave of someone.

The bible is riddled with puns and dark jokes like this one:

John 8:32
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Implying that you are not free at this moment, you are a slave of god, and the current(at the time) well known god is the roman emperor, god and messiah.

Applegene's picture
About slavery:

About slavery:

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The right translation is "slave".

The Bible teaches that we are all slaves of sin by nature, children of wrath. Many people think that one is born with a clean slate, and that at the end of their life they will be judge by their works, this idea is as old as the pyramids. That is not what the bible teaches, everybody is guilty, there is no just not one, and there is nothing we can do about it. The meaning of Gospel is good news, that God has done something for Man, not a new teaching, not a new law but has redeem his people,

“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:68‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He have been bought in the market by the precious blood of Jesus, I am not my own, I belong to Jesus and in him, because he is just I have access to the Father.


Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.