Hi all.
Have you ever noticed that it is perfectly acceptable to criticise Christianity until you're blue in the face, but if you criticise Judaism, strictly from an Atheist point of view, you're anti-Semitic and if you criticise Islam, you're Islamaphobic?
Surely as Atheists we should be able to criticise all ideology.
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@Agnostic Prophet:
This is pure junk, religion is open to criticism, no matter if it's monotheistic, polytheistic, or otherwise, I'm not interested in whether someone calls me anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, or anti-Christian.
Religion, all religion is garbage; indoctrination of children; murder of people throughout history in the name of god, or gods; the invention of a pseudo story that supports and excuses the existence of organizations that force the recreation of laws based on religious bullshit... If all this isn't criticized, it doesn't matter what religion we are talking about, or the country where it happens, well, I don't know why someone would not complain, protest and vilify that shit.
@SBMontero
Whilst I completely agree that all theology is completely up for critism, I am simply pointing out that in reality this isn't the case... by a long way. I was reading an article of how Richard Dawkins was branded an Islamophobe, and was cancelled on an American radio station for criticising Islam like he criticises Christianity. The same people that would be standing in applause when he critises Christianity, formed a lynch mob when he said the same thing about Islam. It seems a double standard.
So yes, I agree it is pure shit, but it is a reality nevertheless.
@Agnostic Prophet:
Well, atheists also have to acknowledge that we are a little more beauteous with Christians, because we are aware of the long string of lies they have imposed throughout 1,500 years and what is the origin of it, that with other religions such as Islam and Judaism. Obviously there's a pending work, I would say that much more with orthodox Judaism than with Islam, although Islam right now deserves all criticism and deconstruction, especially for children.
It's obvious that to call Richard Dawkins Islamophobe is an idiot of believers, if he is all atheists we are.
Judaism and Islam are both strongly associated with particular ethnic groups, while Christianity is more universal. So if you criticize Judaism and Islam you risk being called a racist by some really stupid people who don't realize that religions are distinct from the ethnic groups that created them.
I'm an idiotophobe. I'm deeply prejudiced against idiots who try to control what I think or say. So I'll just go on criticizing both of these stupid religions, along with Christianity and Hindu.
Before I'm called a bigot, I want to clarify that for me there's no such things as races within our species. There's only one race, the Human Race, and among people you only find some small evolutive differences, nuances (such an pigmentation, body shape, etc.). Chihuahuas and Saint Bernards, are examples of distinct races within the same species. That's a real difference on race, not ours.
That said, I agree with Algebe: Religion is not a race, but a melting pot of different human beings, from different countries and different ethnic groups. I'm caucasian and I could become either a muslim or an Adventist in the future if I wish (wink, wink, John6IX), so as any other belief system, it's vulnerable to analysis and critics. And it's healthy to do it, and that's the precisely the main difference between Christianity and Islam, why one is more dangerous than the other... One has done several serious reformations throughout history; the other one, none.
Disagreement on belief doesn't mean disparagement of believers. This reminds me: Ben Affleck vs Sam Harris on Bill Maher's show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60, a pretty good example of what you're saying.
I've been accused of being an islamaphobe. I typically respond with, "Yes, I am. The religion of Islam scares the shit out of me!"
Fear is often irrational.
Often? How often? What are the parameters of irrationality in this case?
Wow... I see you admire Nyar's approach.
Even at the neurophysiological level, fear is mostly irrational. Whatever be the object of your troubles, that information enters your brain through one of your senses. From there it travels to the thalamus and is deferred immediately to the central nucleus of the amygdala. It completely bypasses the cortical regions which is where "reason" is found. So no numerical parameters, only a physical bypass of fear information in the cortical regions, thus making it irrational.
How often? For starters we know phobias are overwhelmingly a female experience, they outnumber male phobias 4:1. That means your extra X chromosome, not your reason, has predisposed you to fear. Secondly, about 12% of the population have social phobias and anxiety specifically (So ignoring nonsocial phobias: fear of flying, dogs, darkness).
Lastly, we know fear is a huge contributor to prejudice and racism: "When people perceive that another social group threatens their own group, for example, they may experience fear, anxiety, or hostility.... other groups also can be seen as threatening simply by having different goals from one’s own social group" (Whitely & Kite, 2010, pg. 12).
So, you contend that fear is *mostly* irrational. I just don't agree with that.
Statistics also show that females have higher fear and phobia rates. I suspect there are pretty basic evolutionary reasons for that.
You refer to fear associated with social groups. I will point out, here, that I never said I fear Muslims. I said Islam.
Oh, and if asking for clarification and additional information is 'the Nyar approach' then, IMO, everyone should employ it regularly instead of risking making an error in interpretation. Doesn't that make sense to you?
Asking for a additional information is great. But asking for specific information that's intended to be biased or argumentative, not so much. So no, asking for the parameters of irrationality doesn't make sense to me.
You fear Islam, but not Muslims. That's rather strange. What can Islam possibly do to you? Muslims are the ones that can possibly strap a bomb to their chest. Or are you saying you are afraid of converting to Islam, cause then it would make sense.
That asking for your parameters for calling something irrational doesn't make sense to you is up to you, of course. But if you are going to make a statement qualifying something, it is perfectly reasonable, IMO, to ask what that entails. It also seems inappropriate for you, as it seems you are doing, to jump to a conclusion that my intentions are to be biased or argumentative. I think it's pretty difficult to discern unstated intentions by reading a paragraph on the internet.
I didn't say I don't fear Muslims. I was correcting you for your error is equating Islam and Muslims from my prior post. Some muslims I fear a great deal, and for what seem to be pretty good reasons in my estimation. I fear Islam because of the potential it presents when taken to an extreme, to incite violence. Please don't jump to any additional conclusions that this excludes fear of other things that can produce the same effect.
I'm going to turn this conversation into a new thread.
Yeah, when I ask him for more information about his statements; to attempt to quantify something he just made a numerical statement about, I get that reaction.
Paradoxically, when I assume he means "all" when he says "all"; I get pretty much the same reaction.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
While I know next to nothing about the subject, I know that isn't true. It might be true that females are diagnosed with phobias at some increased rate.
If we alter your statements to be about diagnosed rates; I'm still skeptical about your 4:1 claim.
As one member stated earlier both Islam and Judaism are associated with race instead of religion. It is not the criticism that is the problem but the way the criticism is made. For example, if you say that Islam is a religion like all religions that promotes discrimination, then you'd be right. There is nothing racial about that statement. If you say that it creates terrorism, you'd be partially correct, because all religions do that to an extent. If you say that all Muslims are terrorist, then you'd be dead wrong. Ismailia promotes peace and progress.
Islamist terrorism is done in the name of the tribe, most of whom reject the terrorists and their methods. The motives are often personal, including mental health issues and simple criminality and ignorance. People brutalised by war and poorly educated are part of the problem. The 7/7 and 9/11 bombers were well educated, had experienced western life and culture and the Glasgow Airport attackers were doctors of medicine. Most Muslims are like most people generally, but they are often from a society that is misogynistic and backward, even while individuals are well educated. Many Muslim countries are brutalised by warfare and their languages (I am told) have no word that corresponds precisely with the English word "compromise". Their words carry connotations or nuances of defeat or submission. Many Muslim cultures and countries have a tradition that is violently hostile to Western countries, (e.g. Pakistan). Saudi Arabia is plagued by Wahhabism and their clerics use Saudi wealth to spread superstition and dogmatism. In short, Muslim countries are more backward and have more problems than most countries. That is a crude generalisation but is not unfounded.
Saudi Arabia is interesting as it has farthest to go to modernise its culture and traditions. I suspect its leaders are often well disposed towards western culture and democracy. Perhaps some are non-believers or seriously doubt there is a god. They certainly couldn't say so openly. They depend on "conservative" (i.e. ignorant) clerics for their position and power. From my British history books: "No bishop, no king!" I would say much of Middle Eastern culture and thinking is about 400 years behind the British and USAmericans - and we've just given the world Brexit and Trump! :-)
I am an equal opportunity atheist. I think all theists are nutsacks. Their particular brand of lunacy is irrelevant to me except that no one is being blown up by Quakers but the same cannot be said for the muslims.
On these boards, with a reasonable expectation of anonymity, I criticize Islam, and Judaism as much if not more than Christianity, (especially Islam, as I feel Islam is for the most part quite a bit worse than Christianity in their current forms although both are awful.)
Quantity wise I end up "criticizing" christians quite a bit more here, simply because more christians frequent and post on these boards.
In real life, I very rarely criticize any religious group, especially outside of my circle of close friends and family. But I am more likely to publicly criticize christians then islam simply because a few of the islam followers are quite frankly very scary in their zealotry and interpretations of their holy book. This is actually a nod from me that on some level I feel christians as a whole, including their extremist, at the moment, are better then islam followers as a whole including their extremist.
I suppose the OP is sure that I've conducted myself in a manner of atheism that favors Judaism and Islam. I often ask myself to be very careful when trashing religions to assure my public that I do so equitably. That said, christianity has more low hanging fruit for atheism to nourish itself upon. Islam does not wax piety and Judaism has a historicity of self-decapitation so both of them have built-in self destruct mechanisms that require little assist from the average atheist. However, leveling my sights on christianity gives sufficient collateral damage to the others by mere metaphysical brotherhood.