I don't have kids and it gets lonelier every passing year. When I was a young man, my gf got pregnant and had an abortion. I supported it at the time due to the perceived horror of being ostracized by society. Seems selfish now.
Sometimes I wonder what that fetus might have given me. A family. OTOH, I cast it aside by saying the world doesn't need more people, so, aborting a young fetus isn't so bad. Yet, that doesn't seem very righteous either -- killing a fetus. I also sometimes think that, as a man, I and the government shouldn't have the right to mandate what a woman has to do with her body/life.
I come from a religious upbringing, so, that shapes my thinking even today, decades later.
How do you internalize abortion being an okay thing? I bet somebody has written a book or good article about this.
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Everyone has a right to call their own body private property. A man , a priest, the state, or a fetus have no claim on a womans body. That is the first principle that I use to support my stance.
My wife lost one in its first trimester and I've often wondered the same thing. What child might have become of it?
I'm not opposed to abortion but I'm not a fan of it. That sounds like an internal conflict and it is, like many aspects of living out a life of time-relevant ethics and morality, that each of us must deal with. That said, I give safe harbor to a woman who's decision is her own to make and take.
I have two very healthy, mature sons. I could not imagine a life with them nor without them now, but I do know I'm richer for them.
I want all laws kept off my body.
While I don't oppose abortion, I can say that I am deeply disgusted with any woman who has had one without a reasonable excuse. I believe people should live with the consequences of their actions, and if they choose to have sex and a pregnancy results from that, then it's their own fault. Other circumstances of course happen, such as rape, that I find to be a reasonable situation to have an abortion. The prospect that some woman have had 20 or more abortions is just astounding to me, abortions have become a failsafe for pregnancy and now some people abuse it. But overall I feel abortion has been helpful to our society more than it has harmed us.
If they get pregnant, it is THEIR fault? The 1950s is calling you
Freedom of choice (for the woman!), retarded abstinence-only teaching (use contraceptives instead!), rape & incest, gross overpopulation of the planet.
I agree that abortion should not be used as a "contraceptive", but that is just a failure of education and a consequence of abstinence-only teaching.
I completely agree that there is a lack of education as far as sex goes. And I didn't mean to sound like an abstinence only advocate as I am not. I merely meant that if I were to do something not frowned upon but something negative came about because of it, I'd take responsibility for my actions, no matter what my intentions were.
"I believe people should live with the consequences of their actions, and if they choose to have sex and a pregnancy results from that, then it's their own fault."
"I'd take responsibility for my actions, no matter what my intentions were."
You have sex with a gal, she gets pregnant. Maybe you both even used contraceptives and they failed. Guess what! In the case of a pregnancy you don't have to live with it, and you cannot take responsibility for it since you cannot be pregnant.
I'd disagree on that "he" can't take "responsibility for it" as the father of the child. He could be there for her, take care of anything that needs to be taken care of, in short: support emotionally, financially, physically.
But unfortunately, as a father, that's all a man can do.
I certainly agree that it's a major difference between taking responsibility as a father, and actually going through the procedure of pregnancy, labour, birth and aftermath as a mother!
The father is not the one who has to carry the growing fetus around for 9 months while it is growing, the father is not the one who has to take the physical strain on the body, the father is not the one who has to risk his own life giving birth to the child, the father is not the one who has to endure the procedure of labour and birth, the father is not the one who might have to get "stitched up" afterwards and the father isn't the one who might have to ware a "mommy diaper" afterwards, etc.
As such, women should be granted free choice to go through with it or not.
Personally, I'm not at all decided about the whole "when the fetus is viable or not" discussion. And if the human race were in peril of extinction, I'd have another view on the matter. As it is now, the number of humans is growing at an sickening rate, so the value of a non-viable fetus has to be de-valued.
I never understood the Christian view that a fetus is worth everything, and once the child is born it's entire life is worth next to nothing. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
I was referring specifically to pregnancy.
There is no comparison of the level of responsibility there... :/
@The Pragmatic, "I never understood the Christian view that a fetus is worth everything, and once the child is born it's entire life is worth next to nothing..."
Do you mean due to the concept of burning in hell or just what?
That's why if that situation were to ever arise, I would leave it to the mother to decide as it IS her body. I may not respect her choice, but I will live with it, whatever it may be. And I would make sure that she understands that I would be there for her, whatever she needs. I'd probably be scared as hell, especially at my current age, but I don't think I COULD turn a blind eye.
No one suggested that you must terminate a pregnancy. If you want to stay pregnant, good for you. Your personal opinion should not be legislated and mandated for every woman
My views on abortion were shaped by some experiences in Japan. The first happened when I was teaching an English class. One of the young men in the class looked upset, so I asked him what was wrong. He told me his girlfriend had died. Then he told me she'd died having an abortion. And then he told me he was upset because the doctor wouldn't give him a refund.
Another experience happened when my wife was pregnant with our first child. We went to a local gynecologist's office for advice. In the waiting room I saw what looked like a menu. When I looked closely, it was a list of prices for abortions, which got more expensive as the months went by.
The birth pill was illegal until quite recently in Japan because doctors deemed it unsafe. So abortion was a major method of contraception. Doctors who thought the pill was unsafe were happy to perform abortions, purely because abortion is more profitable than prescribing. Another reason is a cultural unwillingness to allow women to be in control of their fertility.
So I don't like abortion. I think it's physically and mentally dangerous for the woman, and it should be totally unnecessary given modern contraceptive technology. That said, I accept the argument that the woman should be able to make decisions about her own body. She does all the work and takes all the risks, after all. But abortion should be a last resort.
I also believe that men should be held more accountable for their actions. In fact, in another life when I was standing for public office, someone asked for my opinion about abortion at a candidates' debate. My response was that abortions should be paid for by the fathers, and the price should one testicle each time.
As this is a forum about atheism and religion, I'll add that every religion that dictates rules about contraception, fertility and abortion should be charged with crimes against humanity. As far as Xtians go, your god is just another irresponsible deadbeat father who got a young woman pregnant and left her to give birth in cowshed. Your opinions count for nothing.
"abortions should be paid for by the fathers, and the price should one testicle each time."
But what if a man gets a woman pregnant a 3rd time?
BTW vasectomies are awesome! There is no reason to not get one. If you want kids adopt. I don't believe in heaven. But if there is one there is an express lane for people who adopt.
"But what if a man gets a woman pregnant a 3rd time?"
I think that's called immaculate conception. It's very rare.
I agree on vasectomies and adoption. Men who are obsessed with passing on their personal DNA really have an inflated opinion of their genes. I blame all the talk about knowing and begetting in bible classes.
Did you know that no form of female birth control is 100% effective. You know that right? And yet you want to assess this penalty? Seriously??
There will soon be a male contraceptive pill available. All of you males that are prolife will be able to take full responsibility for your sperms. No more need for you to worry about your gal killing fetuses.
In reality, abortion is not an "ok" thing. It is a terrible form of contraception given it is invasive, expensive and has significant risk of complications, not to mention the psychological effects many women (and men as you can attest to) experience after. However, that does not diminish the fact that women have the right to decide what to do with the pregnancy, especially early on. That is why I am pro-choice but fairly anti-abortion.
I don't know what fairly anti abortion means. I am glad you're pro choice
It means I think it is a terrible form of contraception. When women ask me about it, I tell them so...I also encourage women who are thinking about it to consider adoption. However, I fully support their right to have an abortion if they feel they have no other option. In my opinion, given the myriad of safe, effective and cheap forms of contraception and sterilization that are available now, abortion should almost never be needed.
So why don't all "pro-Life" people celebrate "conception day" instead of birthdays? It is so easy for pro-lifers to sit in judgement of a woman when they don't know a damn thing about that woman OR her potential baby. It is a private medical condition and no church has any business interfering.
As I have told my son's more than once, I am pro-choice not pro-abortion. Abortion is a weighty subject with anyone but personally it is none of my business what reasons a woman has for having one, what the circumstances of conception were, has she talked to the other party. Those are all personal decisions and once again none of my business. The only parties that should have any opinion should be those that the woman involves herself.
I am also pretty sure that there is not one woman who is looking for respect when making that decision, she needs support, understanding and education. She needs to understand the risks of the procedure.
Then she needs some education on birth control and list of places she can get it if she does not already know.
There is shame and guilt associated with that choice. Societal guilt and personal shame and regret. Women do not need anyone else in their head or doctors office. It is known of my business.
What I never understood about pro-life people, is a lot of them are pro-death penalty and not anti-war, how can you be pro-life and not be pro-life? The death penalty is useless, if they sit on death row for 20 years and by then they may be a changed person. War kills on constant never ending basis. But the biggest worry is whether or not a pregnancy is terminated? Women should not have choices? If they do have choices it is only if they have a good reason?
That is pretty harsh. Almost everyone I've ever know is a criminal.