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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@Jon the Catholic: "I found that the Catholic Church's position made more sense than my own"
Please explain how the Catholic Church's position on contraception makes any sense. Please explain why your church opposes condom use for prophylaxis. Do you think the millions who've died as a result of that stance are in heaven or hell now?
That's a huge topic in and of itself. There are many layers to this issue like,
Can contraception be used by unmarried couples? - The church's teaching is that sex is reserved only for married couples so the answer is still no. Then marriage is only reserved for a man and woman... this is a whole different issue in and of itself but it's consistent with the rest of Catholic moral teaching.
Can contraception be used by married couples? - The answer is still no if you consider how the Catholic church views marriage as a full giving of self. Of everything including one's fertility. Again, a whole issue in and of itself.
Can contraception be used to prevent HIV? - I'm guessing this is what you're asking. You see, the church doesn't want to teach that a solution to a natural evil (HIV) is a moral evil (contraception). The church realizes that there exists a morally sound alternative to contraception which when practiced correctly assures a 100% protection from HIV infection from sexual contact - abstinence. In fact, if you look at the ABC of preventing the spread of HIV, A is actually abstinence. Most people simply choose to skip A and B and go directly to C (Contraception). But the ABC's are actually in order of effectiveness. Wouldn't you agree?
"Can contraception be used by unmarried couples? "
Yes, of course they can, and should be. Unmarried people can transmit and become infected by STD's including AIDS, and become pregnant when they don't want to be.
"Can contraception be used to prevent HIV? "
Yes of course it can, condoms is demonstrably the best method we have in the fight against all STD's including AIDS.
"a moral evil (contraception). "
Latex is evil? How so?
"The church realizes that there exists a morally sound alternative to contraception which when practiced correctly assures a 100% protection from HIV infection from sexual contact - abstinence. "
Also suicide, this would 100% guarantee you wouldn't catch AIDS or any other STD, or get an unwanted pregnancy, and it is equally practical. Abstinence teaching has been used in some America sates in place of proper sex education and contraception including condoms with disastrous results, in every instance abstinence teaching resulted in a higher rate of unwanted pregnancies and a higher rate of STD's.
Setting aside the question of AIDS for a moment, how do you think the Church's teaching on contraception affects women and children? A woman who goes through 10 or 15 pregrancies during her married life will end up aged and shrunken by menopause because of the loss of calcium from her bones and teeth, as well as the gruelling work of caring for a large family while breast feeding infants. In economically backward countries, where your religion flourishes most, the family will face grinding poverty with a growing number of mouths to feed. Feeding all the children, let alone educating them, will be a never-ending challenge. If the Pope thinks that's a good life, he should try before inflicting it on others.
Now let's look at HIV. While this perennially pregant woman is growing old fast amid her expanding brood of children, what do you think her husband will be doing? The chances are he'll out looking for fresh fields to plough. Like you, I wish it weren't so. But that's the sad reality of life. If he's a good Catholic, he won't use a condom. Any diseases he picks up will be brought home to share with his wife.
So until everyone becomes moral and abstinent like a few of your priests, don't you think it would be better to use contraception and prophylaxis?
You’re drawing a very specific case but my concern here is that you’re somehow assuming having 10-15 kids means living in poverty. That’s definitely true for some. Not all.
What’s the better solution to the problem. The solution is actually educating the lower classes about the effects of sex. Giving them condoms simply incentivizes the husband in this case, to go out and cheat on his wife. Because the sex can be had without the consequences of the possibility of a baby coming into life.
"Giving them condoms simply incentivizes the husband in this case, to go out and cheat on his wife. "
As opposed to the idea that they can confess and be absolved of all wrongdoings. This is abject nonsense sorry, a nefarious lie created by the RCC to perpetuate it's superstitious dogma no matter what the cost in human tragedy.
Totally unrelated to what you were responding to.
Jon, you wrote, “Because the sex can be had without the consequences of the possibility of a baby coming into life.”
YAY!
Lol. I'm guessing you missed the point I made in the exact same post. But if you think that's a good thing, then that's something I really can't understand.
I agree with you there; you don't get it: sex is not a sin (there is no such thing). That is the power of religion; the ability to transform sex into sin.
You definitely missed the point of my earlier comment. It was about husbands cheating on their wives. Or wives cheating on their husbands.
So JOC what do you feel about open relationships???
What if the husband/wife is fine with the other exploring their sexuality.... are condoms not ok? Should they impregnate, or become pregnant with others outside their marriage?
If you don't agree with open relationships then why? What do YOU find wrong with them? Not what does your church find wrong.
Just saw your reply now.
I do not agree with open relationships... at all. It's like constant lie you tell your spouse when you marry. Provided marriage is viewed differently in different countries but how I see marriage is a total gift of self to each other. Being in an open marriage is basically saying, "I give you everything except the chance to sleep with other people."
This should go without saying but sex isn't actually like any other thing we do with other people like play tennis or watch a movie. It simply isn't.
I understand why you do not agree...
But let's look at it from a different perspective, what would you say to a couple that loves each other, they do everything for each other, but the man also has homosexual fantasies. The wife knowing that bringing another man into the bedroom would thrill her husband, so they engage in a three way, she gets pleasure, he gets pleasure and they both leave this event loving each other more than ever. Now how can you say that they are lying? See without your holy book/ church demonizing sex unless it's a man and a woman who are married, humans are free to explore their sexuality. If both parties are willing why not? We are all crazy and all have desires, the difference is in my world you can live out fantasies or desires as long as you are not hurting anyone, but in your world you cannot, simply because of an old book written clearly by men in a immoral time period. This is why I have an issue with religion, you cannot have sex outside of marriage, yet if your a man you can rape a woman and then marry her as long as you pay her father what she is "worth"! Is that not insane to think? I as a male cannot kiss another man sexually, yet owning humans as property is ok! Is that not insane???
Let's keep it to this one topic... for now. We're branching off to the topic of slavery... again.
The exact case you've just mentioned actually opens up a whole different can of worms which is just wrong. Without talking the rightness or wrongness of the action. That act actually opens both of them to acquiring a wide array of STDs which they would not get if they stayed in a completely monogamous marriage.
Not if people are educated in sexually transmitted diseases!! If people are wearing condoms since the beginning then we can prevent this! If we educated children on sex instead of yelling no sex no sex we would have a cleaner world!
This goes back to the effectiveness of the condom. And the "promise" and sense of security that condoms give. It's a false one. This will actually be my last thought. Just think about it...
When the church teaches abstinence, faithfulness in marriage, NFP, etc and these methods fail like someone cheats and gets an STD, or the woman gets pregnant, somehow, the blame goes to the church.
When popular media teaches that you can protect yourself from STDs and pregnancies by using contraceptives and condoms, and these methods fail, somehow, the blame just goes to the couple or the guilty party (in the case of a cheating spouse).
Both methods when practiced faithfully are effective. One is more effective than the other (WHEN PRACTICED FAITHFULLY). But somehow, the blame shifts.
I am not blaming the church because someone got an std but to tell people who ARE GOING TO HAVE SEX not to wear protection, that is a crime against humanity. So now I digress, what is so wrong with sex? Why only focus on marriage? There are people who do not want to get married yet you would rob them of sex... believe it or not there are gay people that do not care what your fairy tale teaches, and to tell them not to use protection is a crime against humanity! Your constant crying that sex only with one spouse, only through marriage, and both are virgins is bullshit, sure not doing something that carries risks is always safer, great you literally solved nothing!! Congrats! So if this is your outlook as well as the outlook from the church you are preaching crimes against humanity! Your excuses are bullshit, your mindset is sad. There is nothing wrong with sex at all! And guess what...telling people that do not believe your bullshit fairytale to use protection is a good thing, it saves people, even if it is let's just say 40% safer it's better than your argument because these people are free to explore their sexuality without Catholic cross dressers that fuck little boys telling them they are wrong! The more you speak about what you believe in or what the Catholic Church teaches I gain more firepower! It makes me realize more and more that the atheist movement needs to take down the Catholic church asap!!! We owe it to the youth of the world to stop that immoral entity you call Catholicism!!
@Jon the Catholic: "my concern here is that you’re somehow assuming having 10-15 kids means living in poverty."
For a working-class family, it's the rule rather than the exception. That's especially true in countries dominated by the Catholic church, which tend to have under-performing low-wage economies.
How do you educate working-class (you'll note I called them "working-class", not "lower-class") people out of their desire for sex? Not even Catholic priests are able to control their lusts.
Husbands don't need to be incentivized to go out and cheat. If they have access to condoms, at least they and their wives can be protected from the health consequences of unprotected sex. If they can have sex with their wives without the worry of adding yet another hungry little mouth to their burden, perhaps they'll be incentivized to stay at home.
In any case, adults should be able to make up their own minds about contraception without being ordered around by ingorant men in black dresses.
You don't have access to the originals, no one does.
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Ah yes, the suggestion that you can translate ancient text better than the experts. I guess it is easy when you already know the mind of god. You should translate your own bible.
"Ah yes, the suggestion that you can translate ancient text better than the experts. I guess it is easy when you already know the mind of god. You should translate your own bible."
How long before a personal revelation makes a translation of existing texts redundant? It worked for Mohammed and Joseph Smith, and Jesus just cut out the need for revelation by declaring himself God. Lets face it, people's need for a comfort blanket means they'll believe just about anything if it makes them feel better or special.
if you get your morality from immoral men & ignore it anyway what does that say to us?
do as you say not as you do maybe ?
the phrase "god fearing" is branded about a lot in the Philippines.
1) why fear someone/thing that loves you unconditionally?
2) why ignore the teachings if you believe the god to be real?
cant answer without admitting you don't believe enough to follow yet come here trying weakly to teach & expect us to listen
4200+ gods
28,000 sects of chrisTaliban
16,000+ edits to the babble
hundreds of religions out there as competition to your 1 yet you come to the team not even placing to kick a ball around, how odd.
I assume you've been to muslim, hindu, jewish, buhddist forums already & converted them all right?
Nah its those with open minds & eyes facing reality that scare you the most isn't it jon?
tick tock iron age believers reality is streaking ahead of your immoral ass
We also get out laws from lawless men and insitutions. Do I need to remind you of that?
JTC, you are hilarious. Trying to find anything good to say about the RCC proves how bullshit can baffle the brain. So your church says marriage, and I assume sex without a condom, is only for a man and a woman. That's a bit rich coming from a cult that is run by a bunch of suppressed homosexuals in dresses, don't you think? Not that I have anything against homosexuals, I am gay myself. But this is hipocrasy of babblical proportions. Why don't you rather join a RCC forum? If there is such a thing.
from the country the jon person claims to be from
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/02/sexual-abuse-catholic-...
You think I’m not part of a Catholic forum? The only reason I got to this site is to see what atheists thought of the Carholic position. My goal here is not to convert. I realize that’s a senseless endeavor. My goal is to clear up some misconceptions some people may have about the RCC.
This is the Debate Room, am I right? Where anyone from any kind of belief can debate certain topics?
29 & thinks he is the authority on all things catholic
ergo im the authority on atheist right?
yet you constatlt claim to speak for atheists thoughts
guess what the only thing atheists agree on is that theres is not sufficient evidence for a god(s)
nothing else matters
if I was catholic for 30years do I trump your position on catholocism or does you still claiming to be one carry extra weight?
catholic in the Philippines is very different to other countries, very different
they teach different things in different ways because they temper it to the audiences tolerance
basically they are more iron age & slave/master like here & Africa too
the west aren't as dumb or should I say slave like
"29 & thinks he is the authority on all things catholic"
- When and how? (Alam mo, lagi mo nalang binabaliktad ung mga sinasabi ko. Never ko sinabi na magaling ako)
"yet you constatlt claim to speak for atheists thoughts"
-Again, when and how? (Inuulit ko lang naman ung mga sinasabi ng mga tao dito)
You know what, I think you better take a good look at the mirror. I respect atheists. What I don't respect are anti-theists, which you are definitely. I sent you a pm. Answer me there because really, you make atheists look bad.
forum rule : English only
send all the little messages you like, I ignore all except admin
I respect people not beliefs or non-beliefs
I represent me not any name badge eg atheist
thought you said I was stupid & youd ignore me
was that a lie then?
best run to the priest & ask for guidance
you lack empathy if you need a pedo to teach you
Okay then. You make yourself look bad.
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