I recently purchased a used car at a great deal. It's a red 2017 Kia Rio, and I absolutely love it. I obtained a loan through my credit union for 72 months at 3.49% interest, with monthly payments of only $188. My mom said that I should be thanking and worshipping god for this car, because there is apparently no other way I could have gotten a good deal without him. I politely bit my tongue out of respect for my mother, but I can't help but wonder why god would bother helping one random guy with getting a good deal on a car, but not help the millions of other people on this planet that really need help. Why doesn't he help the starving and oppressed people in third world countries? Why doesn't he help the people of Israel (who are supposed to be his chosen people) from their numerous enemies and critics? And, more importantly, why is it we always give god credit when things work out well, but when things go wrong people either write it off as one of god's challenges, or they don't even mention god at all? As much as I love my mother, she always praises god for all the good things in my life, she never gives me credit for working two jobs to pay for my college, or for acing the interview at my new job. She very rarely acknowledges my hard work accept for when I have large bills (like for car repairs or dental work) in which case she mentions that she's glad that I don't have to ask her for money. Why do so many Christians think this way? Why give thanks to god for the good in the world, but not to the people who make the good happen?
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Hey there, Michael! Good to see you back! How ya been doin'? Better than last time, I hope.
As for trying to answer your OP question, I have to agree it boggles the mind. I have family members at this very moment who have experienced some horrible tragedies during the past few months, yet they STILL continue to "Praise JESUS!" for all the "good" he has done for them. I just have to shake my head in bewilderment. For instance, I have a cousin who lost her husband last year in a most gruesome manner in front of her AND their teenage daughter. (Don't want to get into details, but it was BAD.) And it has left my cousin without a reliable source of income, and their daughter is now suffering from a moderate to severe case of PTSD. Yet my cousin STILL attends church regularly and continues to give all sorts of thanks to God for "the blessings" he has given her and her daughter. Things that make a person go, "WTF???"
And I do totally understand the annoyance of people "Thanking God" for good things that REAL PEOPLE do. Wish I had a good answer for you on any of these topics, but it perplexes me just as much, to be honest.... *chuckle*... Anyway, glad you are still hanging in here with us. Hope to see you around more. Take care out there.
@ Michael
Long little while dude.
As for an answer, the best I can give is that it is like having a chronic gambling problem. You just don't talk about the losses. You confirm the wins by expositing how it must have been the "Hand of God." In this way, the religious can claim how they are undefeated like the 1972-73 Dolphins going 17-0.
rmfr
Isn't it obvious ? She has either not been convinced of the absurdity of her position, or does not want to be. Or, she is too stupid to understand the difference.
May I say, some of that seems to run in the family if you think Israel is the 'good guy' over there. Before anyone starts, no I am not saying anything about religion ( ie no, Muslims are not the good guys ). I don't give a shit if some old book said they are entitled to that land.
A group of people invaded a piece of land, killed or ran off most of the people living there, then spent the next few decades slowly stealing more land and killing off yet more of the people. The 'excuse' they use for this evil behaviour is some of their people were killed off before hand so they have a right to do it. Also that 'God' gave them the ok.
If you think Israel "needs help..from their numerous enemies and critics" you are completely insane.
I just realized you could replace the word 'Israel' with 'America' and it would still come out the same.
:P
Indeed. I wonder how Americans would feel if the native Americans demanded the land back?
shiningone,
"I wonder how Americans would feel if the native Americans demanded the land back?"
There is no such thing as "native Americans" unless you are talking about American citizens who were born in America. Most American Indians didn't become Americans until 1924 and it was after WWII before they all became Americans.
Bravo on the new car. Sounds like you are a hard working guy and you deserve it!
This is an interesting question, and more complex than some admit (@shiningone). As a theist, I still have some gaps in my understanding of this. I do think there is the obvious notion of "confirmation bias", as some suggest. This also means people use these phrases to emotionally uplift them out of bad situations. Another reason is that a big part of living as a Christian is to reduce personal pride and increase personal humility. Attributing good things that we seemingly do on our own to the grace of God, is a practice that does exactly that. It reminds us to not get carried away with pride. Is this such a bad thing?
I do believe though, that God does intervene to help us. But I believe the "tragedies" we experience in our lives come from two ends. Some come from our own poor decisions, and others are allowed by God in order for us to gain wisdom and virtue through the way we overcome such "tragedies". I think of Job. He was a wealthy, popular, loved man. God allowed the devil to destroy everything he owned, loved, including his own physical body. In response, Job said (paraphrased) God gave all this to me, He can take it away. This is a lesson for us. Kind of hypocritical to allow the good things to come, but then curse God when evil comes.
Anyway, off point. Here is an honest anecdote I've experienced in my own life.
After my wife and I decided we were ready to start trying for a family, we found it to be more difficult that previously thought. A year went by with so much sex, it began to feel like a chore. Then we began thinking, "What if we can't physically have children?" We were devastated at the thought, because we both always dreamed of a big family. I remember we were so upset about it, we both wept during confession with the priest. He told us we are doing everything we can, the rest is up to God. This brought some comfort, and reminded us to have patience. Well wouldn't you know, my wife found out later that she was pregnant during the confession and didn't even know it! We were overjoyed. Ten weeks later, we lost the baby. We went from being on top of the moon, to devastation. How could this happen?! Why would God give us a baby, and then take it away? My non-religious family members explained how it "was better for us, because that means the baby wasn't viable, or it would be born with some kind of genetic condition." This is true, of course, but it wasn't comforting. My wife and I saw it differently. It was a way for God to both provide us with emotional comfort, showing us that we CAN conceive children, but at the same time showing us that we weren't ready to provide for children, emotionally or physically. As time went on, this was only confirmed. Family issues, financial strain, job layoffs, and disagreements in the relationship were all around us. Having a child would have amplified all of these hardships.
Six months later, we were doing much better. All of those things were sorted out. And soon after, my wife gave birth to the healthiest and happiest baby girl I've ever met. She will be 2 in March. After she was born, I was excited to try again. She got pregnant again, 3 months later! That would have put their birthday's less than a year apart. I was excited, but my wife was anxious. The first was was so difficult, how can we throw another into the mix? Ten weeks later, my wife miscarried again. The next 8 months were extremely difficult as we tried to raise our first little girl. She started walking at 10 months old, and has never slowed down. If we had another one at that time, we could have sunk. Eventually, our daughter calmed down, slept better, and is overall a wonderful joy. Now that the waters have calmed, we will be expecting our second (little boy) in a month! You see, my point is through our struggle to have children, we have experienced both joy and sadness. We attribute both to the grace of God, because even when we thought we were ready, God knew we weren't (All-knowing, of course). Even through the sadness, we understood it was better for us, and we simultaneously received comfort of knowing we had nothing to worry about.
There are many ways to see the world, and I don't think there is anything wrong with the way your mother sees things; in fact, I think it is beautiful.
@ HumbleThinker
I feel most of the time, it is a waste of time, responding to you religious nuts. You are not interested in reason, so how could anyone possible change your mind?
So 'god', created a human being, then KILLED IT, just so you could understand your financial situation better? Which any accountant could of done btw. He (god) is one twisted fucking evil bastard.
The worst part in all this, is you don't even SEE how fucking crazy that is!
Re: Shiningone - "So 'god', created a human being, then KILLED IT, just so you could understand your financial situation better? Which any accountant could of done btw. He (god) is one twisted fucking evil bastard.
The worst part in all this, is you don't even SEE how fucking crazy that is!"
Holy shit! I am actually agreeing with Shiningone again! What the....?
lol should not judge people by first impressions.
@Shiningone
Shit. I think I am starting to like you.... *scratching head*.... Dammit, I'm so confused....
And I feel, Shiningone, that you are more shallow than you like to admit. Take what I said or leave it, or see it some other way. I don't care.
"You are not interested in reason, so how could anyone possible change your mind?"
What part of my mind are you trying to change? I have changed my mind many times throughout my life. Just because you haven't said anything that has changed it, doesn't mean I am unreasonable. Say something meaningful, and you just might do it.
"So 'god', created a human being, then KILLED IT, just so you could understand your financial situation better? Which any accountant could of done btw. He (god) is one twisted fucking evil bastard.
The worst part in all this, is you don't even SEE how fucking crazy that is!"
Like I said, you are shallow. And presumably a simpleton.
@HumbleThinker: even when we thought we were ready, God knew we weren't
That's a horrible thought. Your god sounds like a monster who goes around aborting babies without even asking the mother because he doesn't think the parents are "ready". Near where I live, a 12 year old child has just given birth after being raped by her stepfather. Did god think those parents were ready? Those self-righteous idiots who picket abortion clinics should go and picket god.
others are allowed by God in order for us to gain wisdom and virtue through the way we overcome such "tragedies"
Horsefeathers. Do you think high infant mortality is somehow character-building? What virtue was gained when a bus carrying kindergarten kids in Fukushima was struck by the tsunami and carried burning on top of a pile of debris for several kilometers? Of course those of us who survive tragedies can learn wisdom and become stronger, but to say that some conscious entity caused those tragedies to happen as a kind of teaching aid for us is just appalling.
Algebe,
"Near where I live, a 12 year old child has just given birth after being raped by her stepfather."
It's a sad truth but a lot of women pimp their kids out to guys who will abuse or even kill the kids. They hate the kid's father but don't want him to have custody of the child so they find a creep who will abuse the child or even kill it because of their hatred of the father.
“...a lot of women...”
Just how many is that?
@Diotrephes: It's a sad truth but a lot of women pimp their kids out to guys who will abuse or even kill the kids.
No. I think the sad truth is that there are predatory males who seek out vulnerable women so they can prey on their children.
Algebe,
Maybe it's a mutal attraction because the news is always full of such stories.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/surat/surat-man-arrested-for-ra...
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/kzn-man-accused-of-raping-stepda...
https://www.khmertimeskh.com/50538807/man-arrested-over-rape-of-stepdaug...
https://www.ndtv.com/noida-news/man-arrested-for-raping-8-year-old-step-...
https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2018/08/29/man-arrested-on-suspicion...
https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/man-arrested-raping-underage-step...
https://www.nst.com.my/news/crime-courts/2018/10/419814/man-gets-29-year...
HT, you wrote, “We attribute both to the grace of God”
In other words, you were not allowed to exercise free will in the situation.
HumbleThinker: "But I believe the "tragedies" we experience in our lives come from two ends. Some come from our own poor decisions, and others are allowed by God in order for us to gain wisdom and virtue through the way we overcome such "tragedies". I think of Job."
Thanks for lesson in how horrible of an immoral monster you worship.
rmfr
@arakish
You're welcome.
"Thanks for lesson in how horrible of an immoral monster you worship."
How is what I said "horrible". How is what I described a "monster." How is any of the situation I described, "immoral."
Also, I love how you have nothing of your own to offer, so you feel the need to just insult my comments, which are extremely personal accounts of how I view things. I might add, it could do you some good to take my advice.
"so you feel the need to just insult my comments"
What the hell is this then.... "Like I said, you are shallow. And presumably a simpleton."
"which are extremely personal accounts of how I view things."
But that's part of your MO isn't it. Say something emotionally personal, thinking people will be less reluctant to question your beliefs.
You think theists are the only people who have real emotions and other peoples don't count in some way.
"What part of my mind are you trying to change? "
The part that says, there is a magic man in the sky, that you have absolutely no proof of, that controls EVERYTHING that happens here on earth. Not only that, but he has a special interest in what you do in the bedroom. Oh and don't forget his bad finances! God for some reason can just not handle his money well, he always NEEDS YOURS.
@shiningone
"What the hell is this then.... "Like I said, you are shallow. And presumably a simpleton.""
Well what happened to atheists in this forum "responding in kind". Only atheists can do it? I posted a completely non-judgmental, non-critical response to address the OP, and you immediately took to ripping it apart with shallow critiques of me and my words, that completely missed the point of the whole post. If you don't like it, then feel free to move on to the next one.
"But that's part of your MO isn't it. Say something emotionally personal, thinking people will be less reluctant to question your beliefs."
No. Not at all. But I do believe there is more to the world than facts and figures, and emotions are just as real as anything else. Emotions play just as much of a role in "the real world", if not more, than any scientific figure you can throw out there. At the VERY LEAST, understanding emotional responses and motivations will allow you to understand why the religious minded are they way they are. To discount it as lesser, as you clearly do, only diminishes the conversation and denies truth. The fact that "religion" has existed since the 'dawn of man' proves to me that it is an important concept to understand, regardless of its' authenticity. Not to throw away in order to appease your frail ego and fuel your own self-worth. Admitting that everything can't be controlled by us, no matter how much you think we can/wish that we could, does not make me arrogant or stupid. IMHO, it puts me in a more real state of mind than you, O Shining One.
"You think theists are the only people who have real emotions and other peoples don't count in some way."
Also NEVER said anything close to that.
"The part that says, there is a magic man in the sky, that you have absolutely no proof of, that controls EVERYTHING that happens here on earth. Not only that, but he has a special interest in what you do in the bedroom. Oh and don't forget his bad finances! God for some reason can just not handle his money well, he always NEEDS YOURS."
Proof you are simple....
@ Humble Thinker
"Well what happened to atheists in this forum "responding in kind". Only atheists can do it? I posted a completely non-judgmental, non-critical response to address the OP, and you immediately took to ripping it apart with shallow critiques of me and my words, that completely missed the point of the whole post. If you don't like it, then feel free to move on to the next one."
Really. That's your defence? He did it, so I can do it. It seems you were right about one thing in your post. You are definitely not emotionally prepared to have children.
This is a, "debate forum", perhaps you missed that point. If you wanted a "preach forum" maybe you chose the wrong website.
"Admitting that everything can't be controlled by us."
Except you are not doing that are you? You are saying, God controls everything. This is why I pause to answer people like you. Reason does not work. You could not reason, so you changed the whole argument into something else.
Again at the end, because you can't reason out your position, the only thing you could think of is to insult me again.
@Shiningone
Holy shit, I love how I am being told I do not make sense, yet NOTHING you have posted so far is any better. I am going to discontinue this 'conversation' right here, cause you do not offer anything of value. Atleast @arakish, as much as I disagree with just about everything he says, has substance to his posts. You, my dear friend, do not.
lol you mean at least arakish gives you room to manoeuvrer. Pathetic.
"lol you mean at least arakish gives you room to manoeuvrer. Pathetic."
No, that is not what I mean. Thank you for proving my point, yet again.
You have no point. The point you think you have is/was just an insult. The last recourse of a weak mind.
Are you playing a joke on me @shiningone? That is the only way this comment would make sense...
I don't need to play jokes on you, you are constantly fooling yourself.
lol. good one.
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