A world with no Christianity
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@Algebe Re: Books
Hmmm... Sounds interesting. Have you read any Robert A. Heinlein? Admittedly, some of his are sorta "out there", but overall they are great fun to read.
@Tin-Man: "Have you read any Robert A. Heinlein?"
Back in the day I read a few. The only one I can remember is "I will Fear no Evil", in which an aging billionaire has his brain transplanted into the dead body of his murdered female secretary. He has a long conversation with the woman's personality, which is still present in the body, and they decided to have a baby using his frozen sperm. He/she then marry his accountant, whose personality is also transplanted when he dies. They then go to the moon, where he/she/they die in childbirth.
As you say. Heinlein was pretty out there.
@Algebe. Re: Heinlein
Yeah, "I Will Fear No Evil" is definitely out there a bit. lol. Not exactly one I woild recommend for beginner Heinlein readers. *chuckle* I always suggest people start with "Starship Troopers" or maybe "The Rolling Stones". A little more down to earth, so to speak. And "Rolling Stones" is especially humorous. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is excellent. Basically, it is the story about the first society of moon settlers. Some fairly good dry humor in that one.
@Tin-man: Hmmm... book store. I've heard of those. Four walls. Smell a bit musty, right? What is this, 1992? ;0)
If I can't get it on my phone, I get very grumpy.
JoC: "I'm saying what if everything that Christianity has contributed to civilization was also gone.
For example, the study of genetics started when Gregor Mendel was an Augustinian friar and while he was living that life. So we'd probably get the study of genetics much later. Galileo's heliocentric model had many Jesuit scholars help him with the calculations. Maybe Galileo couldn't have finished his model."
All of that is the wrong way around. Christianity (or any other superstition) did nothing to advanced anything. What could have been done in a Monastary could have been done without the prayer, superstition, dogma and so forth. Religion didn't inspire genius it impeded it.
JoC can't change his opinion no matter what evidence or reasoning is presented - telling in itself about "give me a boy under 7..." His/her question is worth answering though, obvious as the answer is.
The point is that JoC, like many people, even some non-believers, makes fundamentally wrong assumptions. A religion or other superstition or mythology contributes little to the world, much less to humanity's store of knowledge. It is a society's culture, enterprise, knowledge, education and genius that contribute and mould its religion.
"All of that is the wrong way around. Christianity (or any other superstition) did nothing to advanced anything. What could have been done in a Monastary could have been done without the prayer, superstition, dogma and so forth. Religion didn't inspire genius it impeded it."
- How so? I didn't say that because religion asked Mendel to do a certain experiment, he did so. I'm saying Mendel did his experiment because he was in a position that wouldn't have existed if Christianity never existed. Mendel did his experiment in a 2 hectare lot. Where would he have gotten this 2 hectare lot if not the monastery. Take note, I'm not looking into the what the church directly caused. More of what it indirectly caused.
"A religion or other superstition or mythology contributes little to the world, much less to humanity's store of knowledge."
- This is incorrect. No matter how much we try to deny it, whatever happened in the past does have an effect on the world and humanity's store of knowledge. Some things might have been discovered earlier. Or later. Some things wouldn't have existed at all.
The simple fact is that if time and resources had not been spent on superstition and the deliberate shunning of science, progress would have happened much faster.
Consider for example this fact: "The Civil War cost the two sides a total of $6.6 billion in 1860s dollars, enough to buy the freedom of all the slaves at their 1860 market value, give each slave family 40 acres and a mule, and make $3.5 billion in reparations to former slaves in lieu of 100 years of back wages."
To argue that bad things like superstition and war have unintended positive effects and are thus necessary is foolish. We could have had no superstition and no war and had even greater positive change plus the compounding effect of that positive change.
Mendel could easily have done it in his backyard. To say that he only made his discovery because of the church garden is to disregard his own interests in finding the truth. Mendel could have simply planted some flowers in his own garden, that he would have by his house, that he paid for with money from his job, since he would never have been a priest.
Let me put it this way: would Newton have still theorized gravity without the apple? Most likely, yes. Personal intellect and the understanding of how to make discoveries via the scientific method is what matters. Mendel could easily have come up with genetics without a monastery. And if not, who can know if the church impeded or promoted the planting of uniform gardens?
That could've ben the case if Mendel had time to study pea plants. Like you said, he'd have a job and money from his job. But more likely he'd be more concerned about his job.
As for Newton and his apple, I've heard it said that that didn't actually happen. But you're equating Newton's apple to the space needed by Mendel for his pea plant experiment. One requires a lot more money than the other one.
True enough. However, as long as gardens existed, some gardener could have come up with genetics. Or even a herdsman. A goat herder uses genetics every mating season. Someone would have gotten it eventually.
As for Newton, yes it is simply an anecdote. Newton was a genius. He didn't need the apple. However, the concept was still the same. Some element (apple trees or monasteries) allowed for an observation to be made. To say the monastery is responsible for the discovery of genetics is to say that apple trees are responsible for the discovery of gravity.
I agree with you. I never said no one would’ve gotten it. I just said it might have been discovered later. I also didn’t say the monastary was responsible for the discovery. It was a good aid which helped the discovery move along faster but not essential. A farmer would’ve gotten it faster I think. Plants would still be easier to experiment on than animals in my opinion.
@JoC: Plants would still be easier to experiment on than animals
We've been experimenting on both since prehistoric times. We've turned wolves into dogs, horses into beasts of burden, boars into pigs, wild cattle into producers of milk and meat, grass into cereals. We've known the mechanisms for a long time. Mendel helped to explain the principles.
One thing for sure, gods only know what the humans who create them know. If there was never a mythical Jesus there would have been some other character who conveyed some of the human ignorance and human gained knowledge of the times.
I'll add one more thing I think wouldn't exist without Christianity.
- The leap year or the Gregorian Calendar.
Re: Leap Year
Well, shit... HEY! THAT'S IT, EVERYBODY! GAME OVER!.... Ol' JoC has finally delivered his ace-up-the-sleeve. He's got us all whooped this time! Pack up your bags and head on home. Nothing more to see here. Toss out all your other arguments and nonsense, and start praising God for the Leap Year. How on Earth would we have ever survived without it??? How did we not see that coming? The atheist community has taken a heavy hit today. A moment of silence, please, for the lost and wounded.
Lol. This thread was never about Christianity’s overall positive or negative effects. It’s about what would be different. The leap year however allows us to accurately predict the seasons more accurately.
Sir, I have to inform you that I am an official of the Department Against Redundancy Department, and your last sentence has earned you one written, composed, non-verbal warning. Please try to keep any future redundancy to a minimum in the future.
Hey, I'm a repeat offender! Come and get me, copper! *maniacal laughter*... *squealing tires*
Huh. I figured a person of alloy would recognize my badge to be brass, not copper.
@Jared. Re: Copper
Oh, okay. Wanna get technical, huh? Fine then! Come and get me, brasser! (See? Just doesn't have quite the same "umph", does it?)
Oh, by the way, I failed metallurgy in school. Laughing stock of the class, I tell ya.
As my mother told me a million times "never exaggerate".
If the calendar had been arranged based upon science, and not upon an approximation deemed correct by the church, our units of time would be precisely measured out in accordance with the longest unit being a year, and each smaller unit being an exact factor of it. But instead, we have uneven months, our year is an inexact amount of days and minutes long, and we need a fixer every four years (excluding odd century turns, like 1900) just to fix the fuck up created by fucked up measurements.
But here's your other mistake: you're arbitrarily assigning significance. You seem to assume that since the Gregorian calendar is what we have now, it is somehow correct or the best it could be. The Gregorian calendar is terrible. It's astronomically wrong in format, it's inefficient even for marking crop seasons, its beginning and ending have no real reason for being when they are, its units are imprecise, and it doesn't serve much of a purpose beyond what previous calendars could do.
Oh Bravo...The Mayan Calendar was very accurate and the Celts had a very sophisticated system as did the Greeks which from imperfect memory was a decimal system and they tacked on holidays when it needed adjustment. The first known celestial computer was greek remember.
@Jared Alesi: "its beginning and ending have no real reason for being when they are"
That's doubly true if you live in the Southern Hemisphere. I can't think of any good reason why the new year should start just after the summer solstice.
You’re actually mistaken in that regard. The Gregorian calendar derives from the Julian calendar. Is it perfect? No. But a slight change to the already established Julian calendar as opposed to a brand new Gregorian one would be much easier to adopt. Wouldn’t you agree?
You think leap year is an advancement? It is a patch for a huge error.
The Mayan calendar is the most accurate and it doesn't use a leap year.
BTW the military uses the Julian calendar which is far better than the Gregorian.
It's like how we use imperial measurements in America, even though metric is much more accurate and easy to use. It's just stupid, is what it is.
This thread is simply about differences. Not better or worse? And really? What date does the military have today? (I’m honestly curious)
Check the Julian calendar.
Curious. How is that more accurate?