The Worst Arguments
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@Dumb Ox Re: Multiverse theory and Fine tuning arguments
Dude! Do I LOOK like an astro-physicist or a cosmologist??? I was a cop for twenty years and also spent seventeen years in the military. My knowledge of multiverses and fine tuning are incredibly basic and general, at best. And much of that "knowledge" was gained from watching Star Trek. Sooooo, I guess what I am wondering is... What in the name of holy snot gobblers does any of that have to do with my being an atheist and not believing in god(s)?
Right! I've been lucky that I got to learn a lot of science and mathematics in my life, but none of that has anything to do with my atheism. I was pretty sure god wasn't real before I could read.
Certainly have not seen very many atheist say: the "multiverse" explains how life came to be here on earth.
And as you say, the whole fine tuning argument is a lousy argument to begin with. Especially since the argument if some how proved correct, does not even prove a "god" but instead some sort of greater being that would almost certainly not fit the definition most people give of "god" or their particular brand of their "god."
"God moves in a mysterious ways; His wonders to perform." "These things are sent to try us."
These smarmy pieces of Christian comfort candy are supposed to help people cope with terrible events in their lives by rationalizing their tragedies as part of god's universal plan for the greatest good.
Here is how the "Fine Tuning Argument" is debunked.
Even if any one, two, three, or all of those constants were changed in the slightest, then everything would still exist. Just that those constants would be different and everything would still fit. The constants would still be the constants they are, just with different values.
An analogy. If the Earth were denser and larger enough for it to be able to gravitationally hold onto the helium in its atmosphere, then life would have still evolved. It may not be life as we know it now, but it would have evolved to the same point of sapience and civilization advancement as we now have. It would just be a different form of life other than human. However, it still might even be human, just evolved to exist in a helium rich atmosphere.
Thus this argument about the fine tuning of the universe is nothing more than a huge pile of horse hoowhee.
Bad argument for Theists:
Saying that being gay is a sin.
Bad argument for Atheists:
Saying that everything they say is rational and anyone who disagrees are people who cannot accept reality.
"Bad argument for Atheists:
Saying that everything they say is rational and anyone who disagrees are people who cannot accept reality."
That's not an argument for atheists, it may or may not have been used by an atheist, but I have never heard an atheist say I have to be honest.
"Bad argument for Theists:
Saying that being gay is a sin."
That's not an argument for theists, it's a claim made in the bible, and it is repugnant bigotry.
I saw a theist argument that literally goes: ''atheism, evolution and materialism are the gateways to hell, because they're essentially fetishism, which leads to money-worshiping, which leads to the demise of humanity.''
@Rushing and Dragging
Where does the Prosperity Prayer fit into that money-worshipping stuff, I wonder?
@Rushing or Dragging: leads to money-worshiping, which leads to the demise of humanity.''
Fools. Money is arguably the greatest invention in the history of humanity, and religion is without doubt the worst.
Rushing or Dragging: I saw a theist argument that literally goes: ''atheism, evolution and materialism are the gateways to hell, because they're essentially fetishism, which leads to money-worshiping, which leads to the demise of humanity.''
Next time you see him, ask him, "If the love of money is the root of all evil; then why do the churches disgustingly demand so damned much of it?"
I'm adding a generic objection to all creationist arguments as they're complete hokum. This also includes their bs denials of species evolution, and it stands until they get some proper evidence for either position properly validated.
Lots of good bad arguments here, the banana one is a favourite, some of the others take more commitment but the banana one is kinda perfect and dear ray cumfart delivers it to perfection.
Duck dynasty is an honourable mention with his extremely detailed rape & torture porn about what he would do if there was no god, very mentally disturbing.
My wife works with a few zealous Christian-minded folks. One day she was discussing a couple of bits about the bible with one co-worker and pointing out to him many of the flaws and inconsistencies. A female coworker (we'll call her Jill) happen to come in and overhear part of the discussion, and she asked my wife to elaborate on a particular point. (By the way, Jill is in the 40's age range.) Anyway, my wife obliged, and even provided a couple of relevent bible verses. (Topic may have been about slavery. I don't remember exactly.) Jill, naturally, started protesting, and even stated, "Well, I've never heard of that verse before." At that point, my wife asked Jill if she ever reads the bible. Jill's response/excuse/argument was priceless. Went something like this, "Well, my momma is the one who reads the bible, and she never taught me anything about what you just said. I think you are just trying to fool me and upset me. But I can call my momma right now if you want, and you can talk about it with her."
Yep, the ol' "Because my mommy/daddy told me" excuse. Textbook example.
Growing up in a Southern Baptist church I remember thinking about all of the "crazy' religions throughout history. Like Egyptians worshipping the Sun, South American Indians worshipping Rain Gods, Greeks worshipping Olympians, etc. How could all of these different groups have such outlandish beliefs and not believe in Jesus???
Then it hit me. I was probably around 12 years old, sitting in church with my parents when the question popped into my little, ignorant mind: "What made the original Christians different than any of these other groups?"
I started going over all of the bible stories such as the talking snake, walking on water, parting the sea, on and on and on. These stories, and the believers of these stories, seemed easily just as "crazy" (if not more) as any other religions I'd been told about. What made the Christian stories and beliefs true while everything else was wrong??
For the next 10 years or so I just floated along, agreeing with my friends and family about Christianity just so they wouldn't look down on me. Finally it became too much. I realized that all religions were just made-up answers to inexplicable events such as shooting stars, hurricanes, sickness, birth, death - anything that could not be explained at a particular point in time.
I'm probably way off topic here - my apologies for that. Growing up - there never was really an argument for Christianity. It was just what everybody believed - so it had to be right. But when I started comparing Christianity to every other religion I'd learned about - that argument certainly held no ground.
Dude, sounds like you and I had similar experiences. Welcome to the AR.
""What made the original Christians different than any of these other groups?"
They were one of the first groups to institutionalize the idea of "in-group / out-group" thinking. You were a member of the group and a "brother in the lord" or outside the group and damned. Anyone could join and be a member of the family of Christ, and those who did not join could be extinguished.
The Pagans were comfortable worshiping all of the gods and even the gods introduced to them by visitors from other countries. The Jews were originally pagans as well and then they became Henotheistic. They believed in all the gods but only prayed to one god, their special god with whom they had a special covenant. The Christians took Henotheism a step farther and asserted that there was only one god. However they still had all the little demi-gods. (Satan, Angels, Demons, Saints, Spirits, and many other gods.) There are 35 false gods mentioned in the bible. (GODS)
The transition from Henotheistic beliefs to Monotheistic beliefs is not 100%. Satan is still a god with godlike powers. Christians play a mind game and assert Jesus, god and the holy Ghost are 3 gods in one. The Catholics can worship saints and Mother Mary also has god status.
So in the end, The main difference is the idea of BELIEF. You must believe as they believe or you are doomed forever to eternal damnation.;
I haven't put an argument in here for god in a while.
"Trees exist, therefore, God exists." Ha! Atheists owned!
Re: Cog - "Trees exist, therefore, God exists." Ha! Atheists owned!
Well, shit. Okay, everybody, pack it up! We're all done here. Cog just ruined everything for everybody. Hey, Cyber and Nyar, tell the AR owners they might as well close down the site now and start looking for other means of income. There is NO WAY anybody is ever going to be able to defend against the "trees exist, therefore God exists" argument. Why even try? Everybody say, "Thank you, Cog!" Yep, sad day for atheists around the world. Well, the AR was nice while it lasted, I suppose. Dammit..... *grumbling to self while walking away*... Wonder if the church down the street is accepting new members... *kicking at the dirt while walking*