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This is the stupidest fking retort I have ever heard in my life. You simply poo-poo 2000 years of Christian abuse. "Well they weren't really Christians." This is the "No True Scotsman Fallacy" taken to the most extreme case absurdity I have ever witnessed. Your god butchers 8 million innocent men women and children in your bible and you want to talk about Christian values? Your stance is moronic, and that is being kind.
Re: "Your list of violence means nothing".... And the whole remainder of that post...
OOOOoooooow....!!!....*both hands to sides of head*.... Owie-owie-owie!!! I think a gear just popped loose reading that post!...*groan*....
So, by your OWN statement within that post, what you are pretty much outright saying is that the ENTIRE Catholic Church is betraying the teachings of Christianity? Because it is the ENTIRE ruling heads of the Catholic Church who are behind covering up the kiddie-diddling priest incidents and also moving those same priests and church officials from one church/country to another to protect those piece of shit pedophiles from prosecution from the courts. Thank you for confirming that for everybody.
*mumbling to self while walking away*.....Now I've gotta go find a mechanic to put that damn gear back in place.....*shakes head and hears rattling sound*... Oh, great.....
10 Commandments - Ahem - That is Old Testament. Are you asserting that the laws of the old testament still apply? If so there are 613 commandments and I would be more than happy to go over them with you. Why in the hell do you get to keep a part of the Old Testament but as soon as I bring it up along with the atrocities of your god and the insane morality, you are going to try and tell me that there is a new covenant and the OT no longer applies. We all know how this Christian game goes. We have heard it over and over and over again. So do you want to stand on the 10 commandments and admit the OT into the discussion or just admit that you made a mistake? You really don't want to hear about the asshole God you worship and all of his STUPID COMMANDMENTS.
Why have all of you mostly directed your comments on my introduction and not my main argument?
Well, when every iota of type in a post is utter bullshit, interlocutors tend to face the claims in a chronological order. We're just getting started Bucko, so strap in and get ready for some flak. Better yet, read a God damn book.
@Rasster:
I and others addressed your main arguments, such as they are, but let's take another look.
Thats another think (sic) what makes Christianity so unique, man does not go up to God, but that God comes down to man.
What's unique about that? In most ancient religions the gods were believed to manifest themselves to mortals all the time. Zeus even had sex with mortal women, just like Jehovah.
Like the death and resurrection of Jesus, this is just another example of plagiarism from earlier religions. There's nothing there to support morality.
Rasster
"Why have all of you mostly directed your comments on my introduction"
Because your secondary nonsense is predicated on your opening statements. If you base your argument on a false premise, as you did, then any subsequent debate based on that falsity must fail. Do you not get that?
Maybe you should forget your opening inaccuracies and retype your argument (such as it is) without fallacies and historical errors.
Hint: your assertion will still fail.
CAN YOU NOT READ!!!!! A history check will show what societies were like before Christianity, Roman society entertainment of gladiators and people being fed to wild beasts for example and all societies before the Christianity you will find very inhumane and barbaric lifestyles.
I specifically gave you 2000 years of Christian HISTORY. Old man shouts ...specifically addressed Pre Christian Morality and showed it to be more moral than the Christian morality., Everyone chimed in on why America is not a Christian nation.
EVERY LEVEL OF YOUR MAIN ARGUMENT HAS BEEN ADDRESSED AND LEVELED. There is not a syllable in anything you have said that was not completely and utterly debunked. In short YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT and DO NOT HAVE A CROSS TO LEAN ON.
I agree with Old Man Shouts "Maybe you should forget your opening inaccuracies and retype your argument (such as it is) without fallacies and historical errors."
AND: "Your" asinine "assertions will still fail."
The problem is not that people have not addressed your MAIN ARGUMENT. The difficulty arises in your inability to understand the English Language. You don't get to poo-poo the facts you don't want to hear. That's not the way logic works. You can cherry pick your bible but when you come on here and try to cherry-pick facts, you are going to get called on it.
SMACK DOWN...!!!
you nailed it cog...again and again...
damn that brilliant mind...
nothing more to say...
Maybe he'd fare better if he came here to debate, and not to just deliver sententuous sermons filled with errant nonsense, and a risible religious propaganda version of history, rounded off with blatant lies and negative stereotyping of atheists and atheism.
Just a thought...
Your argument is that atheists are more evil. That is factually untrue.
If you had bothered to do any sane and reasonable research, you would have discovered that the opposite is true. The bottom line is that secular cities/states are much safer than ones predominantly theist.
In the bible, fetuses and infants less than a month old weren't even valued as individuals:
"Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When a man consecrates by a vow certain persons to the Lord, according to your valuation, if your valuation is of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old, then your valuation shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. If it is a female, then your valuation shall be thirty shekels; and if from five years old up to twenty years old, then your valuation for a male shall be twenty shekels, and for a female ten shekels; and if from a month old up to five years old, then your valuation for a male shall be five shekels of silver, and for a female your valuation shall be three shekels of silver; and if from sixty years old and above, if it is a male, then your valuation shall be fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels." - Leviticus 27:1-7
"Then the Lord spoke to Moses in the Wilderness of Sinai, saying: “Number the children of Levi by their fathers’ houses, by their families; you shall number every male from a month old and above.”" - Numbers 3:14-15
@ Sapporo
This also reinforces the fact that women are not considered equal to men in the bible.
@Rasster
Your claim that Christians doing horrible atrocities are betraying the faith. Then watch this video.
William Lane Craig: The Moral Monster.
And this one by Thunderf00t. It is already set to start where at the point I wanted.
They are not betraying their faith, they are obeying God's commands.
rmfr
@Rasster:
Also, this should be required viewing for ALL Absolutists.
Yes, there are 48 videos, but they are well worth the viewing.
Thunderf00t's "Why do people laugh at creationists?" series...
He definitely points out why us Rationalists, Free Thinkers, et. al. laugh at and criticize your preposterous claims.
rmfr
Is there any act so depraved that even a Christian would refuse to do it?
I only ask because Abraham was willing to kill a child merely because "god told him to do it".
Not just any child, but his son.
There was violence all over the world before Christianity, with Christianity, without Christianity, and most importantly here in the name of Christianity. The idea that Christianity provides some hedge against immoral behavior is not only false, it's patently obvious that Christianity is and has been used as an excuse for violence and other immoral acts throughout it's very blood drenched history.
There is no research that supports your assertions, in fact most research refuted it. However even if it were true it doesn't make superstitious belief in a deity valid.
There is a large body of research to indicate that atheists are at least as moral as theists. Nor is western morality derived from religion, but as with all societies precedes it.
If christianity makes it adherents more moral as you assert, why for decades is evidence emerging of endemic child abuse by it's priesthood in the largest Christian church? Also why has that church done it's utmost to protect those paedophile priests from justice, often moving them time and time again, enabling the mass raping of children to continue unchecked?
Two world wars fought almost exclusively among theists. The Holocaust, committed by a populace that was overwhelmingly Christian. Antsemitism is after all derived from Christian bigotry that is centuries old.
Religion as all the evidence shows, is no check to immorality.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities".
Voltaire.
History proves that is as true of Christians as any other religion.
For any christian, I'd advise to actually go and visit either Scandinavian countries, or Japan. Seeing some actually moral and polite society should cure your ignorance. If it still doesn't show you how rude and immoral even your everyday behavior actually is, nothing will.
The local standards you have grown used to mean nothing. Especially compared to the bigger picture that is the whole wide world. Groundless belief your divine mandate is the only valid way of life, without ever ascertaining the validity of others, is plain stupid blindness. There isn't a perfect society, but there are plenty, that are slowly and steadily improving, especially when compared to stagnation offered by Bible (or any other holy book at that matter)
Meet real, live people from other cultures. Listen to what values they hold. And think real long and hard, whether your own beliefs actually seem the most useful. Be it moral standards, politeness, or societal gain, there are plenty of good examples to learn from. Simply stating your own belief is the only valid true way of life is the same as just admitting to not see it's flaws.
I think it's pretty clear that whichever God you wish to believe in, didn't make us perfect. And it was us, Poony Hoomans, that wrote down the God's word, compiled, edited, and later used it for our own carnal desires. Skip the unnecessary step of clinging to some antiqued writings, and just continue improving on what your divine creator left to us as a homework.
PS: if you know of anyone sponsoring trips to Japan, let me know.
You mean aggressive secular societies such as Iceland?
Oh, I have visited these places.
1) There is an epidemic of depression
2) humanity is treated as disposable such as there are no more down syndrome children because they're all aborted
3) and the elderly or lame are euthanized.
@Rasster do you have evidence for your claims? I can only find evidence that the United States is the most depressed and anxious country in the world per capita, that it has higher rates of abortion than Scandinavian countries, lower life expectancy, and poorer quality of life.
Taking an average of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland and comparing it to the United States:
The United States has a suicide rate more than 8% higher than the "Scandinavian" countries, and a homicide rate more than 623% higher.
Compared to Iceland alone: the United States has a suicide rate more than 6% higher, and a homicide rate more than 1783% higher.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_...
Complete nonsense, you're simply making up lies. It;s the standard fare of christian apologetics to try and decry atheism, because they know their superstition is not supported by a shred of objective evidence.
1. The epidemic of depression is unrelated to religiosity. Depression is quite rampant in any cold/snowy region in almost all cases. Washington and Alaska are among the most depressed states of the US because it's always either raining or snowing in both those places. Ask any Alaskan, they'll tell you how religious they are.
Furthermore, while depression is rampant in Scandinavian countries, the sale and use of antidepressants is also through the roof. Meaning that those who have depression can remedy it fairly easily due to their socialized healthcare. So your point about depression is moot since it is both irrelevant to the issue and a non-issue to begin with.
2. Scandinavia is one of the most humanitarian regions on Earth. They have universal healthcare, so that prolonged suffering (both physical and financial in nature) can be averted easily by anyone. They practice assisted euthanasia for those that so desire it, so that terminal illnesses don't mean lifelong torture for those afflicted. They practice safe abortions for desiring women, and the choice to abort a fetus with congenital malfunctions like Down Syndrome is left up to the mother. Forced abortion isn't a thing.
3. The elderly and lame are euthanized if they so wish. You forgot the most important part there bucko. Nobody is just offed by some doctor because their legs stopped working. It's not a livestock show. People who don't want to suffer have the choice to go through assisted suicide. This is actually quite the humane act. Would you want someone to suffer needlessly for the rest of their life?
Oh wait. You're a Christian. You believe we're all going to hell. Of course you do.
@ "You mean aggressive secular societies such as Iceland?"
What in the hell is wrong with Iceland. I've been there twice. It is the only European Country to grow tropical fruit. You can have a pick-nick by a thermally heated hot spring in the middle of winter. The people are great. When I was there the Taxis would take you home for free at night if you had been drinking, the government pays for it. (Get one drunk driving conviction and you will never drive again in Iceland.) This is not a bad thing though. Because of permafrost all the water pipes are above ground. If they were under the ground they would freeze. You hit one of those pipes in the middle of winter and .... well.... never driving again is too good for you.
I never met an aggressive person in Iceland. I was never treated badly. I was invited to stay in homes. Children wanted to hear about America. I was invited to parties. WTF are you talking about. You want to see a bunch of Aggressive assholes, go to Paris. I hear Philadelphia in the USA is another great place to meet people on the streets or when you are out for a night. (I have never been there but I have heard stories.) I have first hand experience on the streets of Paris. The frigging Parisians can keep their dirty city. I will not return. But Iceland is fantastic.
Iceland is also the only country in the world with no mosquitoes ever! Sounds delightful, huh?
As people keep saying, stop cherry picking.
Stop looking only at the terminally ill and such. There is plenty of depression and questionable practices in USA too, if you look for them. And trust me, latter are especially easily found in various religious organizations. Read 'Cults'.
Look at the bigger picture. And, as I said, stop relying on your own local standards. Have you asked why people from their various countries have their laws or practices the way they do? What their intentions behind them are?
If you state their intentions are irrelevant, and only the results matter, than please, continue on with the logic. Lets outright ban religion.
1) I doubt anyone live would actually call depression a pandemic. Especially without even specifying the reason. If that counted, you could easily make a poll, asking people of any country if they ever got depressed. It would give near 100% positive result anywhere you went.
2) Abortion rates are one of the highest in USA, as people have pointed out already. Do yourself a favor and actually READ the answers people have provided to you. If anything, it would make seem that your own country has much more trouble with 'Disposing' of human beings.
3) Euthanasia of terminally ill isn't necessarily a bad thing. At the very least, if it has been explicitly requested by the patients themselves. And even if the decision is not their own, it is without a doubt well grounded in nonexistent chances of recovery, and the wishes of their families. Nobody is simply going around and killing the elderly and terminally ill without anyone's consent.
Really, stop just taking somebody else's sensational headlines at their face value. You've already become a victim to religion's sensational claims. Do yourself a favor and question at least the other aspects of your life more thoroughly. Especially the statements coming from the media.
PS: if you have actually been to Iceland, do be so kind and retell your interactions with people there in detail. Because none of my acquaintances that ever visited Scandinavian countries have been alerted to any of what you claim to have 'experienced' there. Then again, being the good Christians that most of them are, I'll understand if you'll insist on them being liars.
Hey Muashkis. Again, welcome to our forums. Great first post (guessing since first I've seen since other one in why an atheist thread).
Having fun so far?
And yes the Scandinavian countries have the most friendliest people I have ever met. Well, Iceland, Denmark, and Sweden. Ain't been to the others.
rmfr
@Rasster
Ok. You say no one has discussed your Main Argument. OK, let's rip this piece of bullshit apart phrase by phrase...
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Yeah. They were a hell of lot more peaceful. A hell of lot more focused on "the family/tribe." A hell of lot less self-eccentric. People I would have loved to have lived with. If you really want to know what it was like before Christianity, read Jean M. Auel's Earth's Children series. Of all "historical" based novels I have read, this one was probably the MOST meticulously researched series. I do not think anyone can find any better researched.
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You mean much like the societies dominated by Christianity/Islam today? Do some research you whiney-ass. Of the top ten nations/socities which have lowest crime, highest education, greatest happiness index, and free health care, ALL ten are secular nations. In case you do not know, secular is synonymous with atheism. Guess where the United States ranks? Go research. Of the top ten nations/societies which have the highest crime, lowest education, greatest depression index, no health care, ALL ten nations are absolutist.
And here is that term defined: Absolutist — anyone belonging to and possessing an inexorable belief in any religion, especially the absolute Abrahamic religions – Judaism, Christianity, Islam – due to their absolutist beliefs system and is truly applicable to any religious believer, especially the worst subset, Apologists.
Don't know where you are living (and notice the emphasis)...
What is So Great About America Amongst First-World Developed Countries?
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One thing I learned very early on (in my 20s when in the US Navy and did travel to other countries) is that the average American is the most arrogant and sorriest piece of shit I have ever met when it comes to being a human. Sometimes makes me ashamed to admit I am an American. However, I also enjoy showing to these Americans what it means to be a "human person" first who happens to have been born in America. Instead of the other way around. However, it is very difficult when you are among a very minuscule portion of said population. But I try... Now days, I actually view myself (due to both paternal and maternal ancestry) as a Highlander who happens to be living in America.
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Explain to me why I should accept an article written by an Absolutist? Let alone actually read it? Except to get a good laugh? If it ain't a scientific journal paper, then it is not evidence. ALWAYS remember, if it cannot be verified or falsified, it ain't evidence. Science is the ONLY set of disciplines in which ANY paper MUST go through the rigorous and arduous process known as Peer Review. In the realm of the Absolutists, there is no such check and balances. Anyone can write anything based on religious beliefs and/or doctrine and it NEVER gets Peer Reviewed. It just gets published along with the rest of the garbage that Absolutists force onto the public.
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No. Like speciation, morals evolved as we evolved. Good example (and I only need one word): Slavery.
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Please provide hard empirical evidence. Hitchen's Razor applied. We evolved, not were created.
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Please provide hard empirical evidence. Hitchen's Razor applied.
Here is a thought for you: Your Sky Faerie is supposed to be a supernatural super-being who has ultimate-power, ultimate-knowledge, and ultimate goodness (I beg to differ on the goodness). You Absolutists believe in this Sky Faerie that wants to be found, wants us to find it, and this deity is capable of literally anything. It should not be a problem for this Sky Faerie of yours to provide evidence that would convince me of its existence.
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Partially true. It is ALSO how we act and live with others that also shapes our conscience and morals.
MORALITY IS SUBJECTIVE. Unquestionably. Completely. Utterly. Absolutely. There is no such thing as objective/absolute morality. No matter how hard you argue the contrary, morality shall forever be subjective. Morality is subjective to each individual. Even if you try to pawn off the argument of a deity instilling objective/absolute morality, THAT morality is still SUBJECTIVE in accordance to that deity. If fact, in that case, the morality is no longer morality, but commands for enslavement, servility, bondage, enthrallment, subjugation, vassalage, choose your word. However, it still ultimately boils down to enslaving oneself to an imaginative Sky Faerie and Magic Zombie Virgin.
As for societal mores, this just happens to evolve from the fact that those who are moral will be allowed to stay with the tribe, procreate, thus continuing those genes which promote a moral behavior. Those who are immoral are usually shunned and may not be allowed to stay with the tribe, thus their genes promoting an immoral behavior may not procreate. However, such can happen if there are enough immoral persons to subjugate their tribe and thus continuing their immoral genes. A very good example of this is the Huns & and Mongols. Thus, the reason the Great Wall was built. Research it, you lazy Homo inscius.
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Nope. Completely wrong. They were doing exactly the same thing as those immoral desert dwelling pagans. Read Exodus 25:8–40, 26:1–13.
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Please provide hard empirical evidence (specifically highlighted text above). Hitchen's Razor applied. Christianity is not unique. It is evolved, but NOT unique. Read the Greek Myths. The gods were always coming down to the humans of that era. And it was many centuries before.
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What prophets? There never were any. Just a bunch of desert savages seeking to enslave their tribe with a bunch of plagiarised myths and legends that are far older than the Bible or the Hebrews. Many are thousands of years older.
As I said in my first reply, read this post: This One is For Breezy the Dodger.
Although it mainly delves into mental disorders that Absolutists suffer, in the Schizophrenic Delusion section, I also discuss how the Noahacian Flood story and the Exodus are fantastical faerie tales deriving their plagiarism from other sources. Or, if you want, I can pull out just those two essays and post them here for your pleasure.
rmfr
P.S. — Anxioulsy awaiting your trashing of my arguments...
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