Youth Violence = Deprived OF Christian Values = Aggressive Secularism.

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Rasster's picture
Youth Violence = Deprived OF Christian Values = Aggressive Secularism.

Introduction:

1) The whole western society was built on christian values which is rapidly being torn away by aggressive secularism.

2) Look at all the violence and evil acts committed by our youth when we deprive them from our Christian values on respecting life and the dignity of life.

********

Main argument:

A history check will show what societies were like before christianity, Roman society entertainment of gladiators and people being fed to wild beasts for example and all societies before the Christianity you will find very inhumane and barbaric lifestyles.

The Moral World Before Christianity: http://www.faith.org.uk/article/july-august-2010-the-moral-world-before-...

Morals were always there, because we were created with a conscience, a sense we belong to ,or were put here by a higher power ,and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals.

For centuries pagan societies have tried to lift themselves up to this God or Gods and put themselves in there place.

Thats another think what makes Christianity so unique, man does not go up to God, but that God comes down to man. He reveals himself, slowly through the prophets of the old testament and fully revealing himself in Christ.

**********

Ending:

The essence of Christianity is that humanity not matter who or what you are you are made in the image of God and that is the essence of our human dignity and our invaluable worth.

Question:

Following from what I said, where would the world be without Gods law, the 10 commandments?

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Nyarlathotep's picture
Rasster - Youth Violence =

Rasster - Youth Violence = Deprived Christian Values = [Aggressive] Secularism

While I agree with the bold part; I'm betting it's a typo that should read: Deprived of Christian Values. LOL

Rasster's picture
Yes it was a typo.

Yes it was a typo.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
No, you had it right to start

No, you had it right to start with. It is why I am fleeing the Catholic Church in terror. I have seen no values promoted by the 'religious right', Trump Evangelicals other than - might makes right and I've got mine Sc*w you.

The latest is the attempted murder of women and children by the Trump administration trying to bully the WHO into pushing infant formula onto poor nations rather than promote breast feeding. They left the morale high ground to the 'godless commies' in Russia.

The Depraved Christians (I really like your name for them.) are the ones ripping children from their parents at the border holding them hostage so that they both can be shipped back to be murdered.

The Depraved Pagan Pedophiles in the vatican 'legalized' pedophilia 100 years all because they believe that they are magically transformed into men who can do no wrong upon ordination.

arakish's picture
"1) The whole western society

"1) The whole western society was built on christian values which is rapidly being torn away by aggressive secularism."

No it was not. You need to go back and read the founding documents of our nation. They are secular. They were written secular men. Or, at least by men who were intelligent enough to keep their bullshit religious beliefs out of the republic they were establishing.

I shall always remember this quote I found myself, and (I think he does, I ain't read his Thomas Jefferson book) Christopher Hitchens has in his book Thomas Jefferson: Author of America:

"I have yet to see any good reason to suppose that theology, excepting historical, is a subject worthy of study. In fact, I have yet to see any good reason why any theological school should be accredited."

This was in a letter to his son. It also tells me Thomas Jefferson, one of founding fathers, was a closet atheist.

You must remember. Back in those times, to admit to being secular was literally a death sentence. Thus, any who were secular had to hide behind the veil of Christianity.

"2) Look at all the violence and evil acts committed by our youth when we deprive them from our Christian values on respecting life and the dignity of life."

Actually that violence is due to your religions. Here is a blurb I am always using on these forum boards:

I, myself, have never truly believed in ANY religion, especially the Absolutist religions. There is no philosophical ideology more divisive than religion. And, the worst part of ANY religion is that it is an ideology that is implicitly and explicitly protected from any and all criticism from both within and without. Why should any ideology, especially religion, be so privileged? Can you not see how disastrous this way of thinking can be, and is? I firmly believe, and shall take this belief to my grave, that the human species would have been much better off had there NEVER been ANY form of religion. It is due to religions, and their way of thinking, and their theological disagreements, that has created the greatest destruction, injury, death, harm, immorality, wickedness, and abuse to the human species than any other cause. The main problem is not religious fundamentalism, but the fundamentals of religion. Ultimately, it... is... Religion... that... is... Humankind’s... worst... enemy. [Transcriptionist added the ellipses due to my emphasis.]

In fact, I copied and pasted from this topic: Finally, Here is My Debate Speech Transcript

Of any AND all ideologies, Christianity and Islam is responsible for more death, more violence, more depravities to other humans, than ALL other ideologies combined.

And in actuality, the current rate of violence is actually less than in older times. Reason: There are many more persons than back then. Percentagewise, or if wanted, per capita, violence is lower today than it was 100 years ago. 1000 years ago. 1988 years ago (30 CE, when the Magic Zombie Virgin was hung).

The ONLY reason violence SEEMS to be more rampant is due to a unscrupulous and uncaring and cruel and heartless media. To stay in business, the media MUST promote absolute chaos and sensationalism.

And where do you get off saying your Christian beliefs are moral. Go read my Debate Speech Transcript I posted (lined above).

Now go and read virtually the entire book of Joshua. It is filled with nothing but the most heinous acts of ethnic cleansings and genocides. And here is your God's morality: 2 Kings 2:23-25.

And here is a whole web site proving your beliefs and that damnable Sky Faerie and Magic Zombie Virgin are perhaps the most immoral and horrible and terrifiying monsters to ever haunt humanity in ALL of history.

Oh, and have a gander at this post I made: This One is For Breezy the Dodger. Although it is actually delving into mental disorders, I do demolish the two greatest myths of Christianity based on actual live research I did covering a span of 30 years.

Good bye. Good sir.

rmfr

P.S. — And you did get one thing correct, Christian values are depraved...

arakish's picture
Oops. Sorry. Misread.

Oops. Sorry. Misread. Deprived. Depraved. What's the diff?

rmfr

Rasster's picture
"And in actuality, the

"And in actuality, the current rate of violence is actually less than in older times. Reason: There are many more persons than back then. Percentagewise, or if wanted, per capita, violence is lower today than it was 100 years ago. 1000 years ago. 1988 years ago (30 CE, when the Magic Zombie Virgin was hung)."

I predicted this would be said:

Just like what furian below said:

"We know it works literally the other way around than what you clam. The more modern secular an area, the less crime and immorality is seen. The violence that is statistically less common in places with lower rates of religion? [2]. The most violent nations tend to be the most religious....
The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of no believers like Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland, Norway, for example, are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence that the perception of needing religious based laws like the outdated 10 commandments, whichever version, to know right from wrong, is incorrect."

My response, as regards less violence and war in non-christian or non religious society.

1) How many millions of people were massacred in atheistic communists societies were there was a ban on religion, old Soviet union for one example.

2) Or aggressive secular societies such as Iceland were there is an epidemic of depression and humanity is treated as disposable such as there are no more down syndrome children because they're all aborted and the elderly or lame are euthanized.

Sapporo's picture
@Rasster

@Rasster
Christian societies didn't even routinely prosecute for the killing of infants (nevermind the aborting of fetuses) until the Age of Enlightenment.

For example, women threw infants into the River Tiber outside the Vatican and were not prosecuted.

The abortion rate is actually lower in Iceland than in the United States.

And the World Happiness Index has four Scandinavian countries in the top four spots, with Iceland in fourth place:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

In addition, Iceland is ranked first in the Global Peace Index:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index

arakish's picture
Rasster:

Rasster:

My response, as regards less violence and war in non-christian or non religious society.

1) How many millions of people were massacred in atheistic communists societies were there was a ban on religion, old Soviet union for one example.

2) Or aggressive secular societies such as Iceland were there is an epidemic of depression and humanity is treated as disposable such as there are no more down syndrome children because they're all aborted and the elderly or lame are euthanized.

1) Reread the history on this one bub. The communistic governments were ruled by rulers who viewed themselves as gods. The massacres of which you speak were to clean out the infidels who refused to obey those rulers. Look it up.

2) And where are your facts. Show me the evidence. And remember, if it cannot be verified or falsified, it ain't evidence. Also see Sapporo's response.

rmfr

Nyarlathotep's picture
Rasster - ...there was a ban

Rasster - ...there was a ban on religion, old Soviet union for one example.

There were thousands of Christian churches operating openly in the Soviet Union; they were not banned.

Rasster's picture
There were thousands of

There were thousands of Christian churches operating openly in the Soviet Union; they were not banned.

Highly doubt it. The Soviet Union banned anything to do with religion.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Communist and Post-Communist

Communist and Post-Communist Studies (journal) - Western observers had mostly believed that the Russian Orthodox Church had 20–25 000 churches in the 1950s, while the real number was 13 000–14 000.

Now the Soviets definitely reduced the number of churches (for example, they typically blocked the construction of new ones); by 1985 there were about 7,000. But religion/churches were not banned in the Soviet Union; despite what the lunatics say.

Sheldon's picture
"1) How many millions of

"1) How many millions of people were massacred in atheistic communists societies were there was a ban on religion, old Soviet union for one example."

I tire of this moronic claim, do people's rights fair any better under theocratic totalitarian regimes? I simply don't anyone, other than Peter Hitchens, is stupid enough to believe that if Stalin had been a theist he would have behaved any differently. How many millions did the exclusively Christian German nation murder at the same time? You'll be claiming Hitler was an atheist next, this is moronic stuff sorry. Dictators with absolute power commit atrocities, atheism has nothing to do with it.

"Or aggressive secular societies such as Iceland were there is an epidemic of depression and humanity is treated as disposable such as there are no more down syndrome children because they're all aborted and the elderly or lame are euthanized."

That's a lie.

Grinseed's picture
The occurrance of Downs

The occurrance of Downs Syndrome is down through selective termination, correct. But as of February of this year euthanasia was still illegal and under consideration in Iceland. You play loose with truth, christian.

MrHolbyta's picture
I think if you look at the

I think if you look at the values during the Medieval period in Europe, when Christianity was the dominant religion by an extraordinary margin, you will find slavery (the feudal system), frequent political wars, rampant misogyny including sanctioned spousal abuse, and an endorsement of trial by combat among other things. You'll also find the same sort of sexual licentiousness and such things that you would consider moral failings. During the Crusades, the Christians murdered whole cities, including a massive portion of those living in Jerusalem itself during the first Crusade. During the Inquisition, people tortured and murdered thousands for purely sectarian reasons in the name of Christ.

It seems to me that "Christian morals" don't have that much to offer. Indeed, it is humanists who have consistently pushed forward morality from the Stoics through modern times. The religious follow along, cherry-picking their holy texts and taking actions in defiance of their divine commands.

Atheists make up at least 10% of the general population (probably more), but less than 1% of the prison population. When you realize this is your only life; that there's no one but us to fix our mistakes and establish a just world; that your only legacy is how you impact this world, you have to take your moral and ethical choices seriously. There is no big win. There is just doing the next right thing and then the one after that.

Sky Pilot's picture
Mark Weber,

Mark Weber,

"It seems to me that "Christian morals" don't have that much to offer."

The Bible was written in the 680s-690s as a response to the the creation of Islam and the Koran. It didn't exist as a comprehensive book before that. So it included countless stories of killings, genocides, slavery and other assorted bad things to give the Europeans an official doctrine to use against the muslims who were hell-bent on conquering them. So before a fight the priests could get up and rally the troops that their cause was just and to slaughter the enemy just like the God of their religion approves in the holy book.

The Bible doesn't teach morality. It teaches complete obedience and loyalty to the Boss even if it results in torture and death to the believer. It's a military code of conduct for the masses.

MrHolbyta's picture
That is factually incorrect.

That is factually incorrect. The texts compiled in the Bible existed in the 2nd century CE. I have seen some of those fragments personally. The dates given by Christian apologists tend to be absurdly early, but your date is objectively too late.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Mark Weber

@ Mark Weber

@ Mark Weber " That is factually incorrect"

Yes, I agree fragments of INDIVIDUAL texts from the early to mid second century exist but the earliest known COMPLETE Codex is the Siniaticus...from the early 4th Century. And that is what became the "bible", the collected authorised texts. And that is what I said. No inaccuracy.

There were several versions including the Syriac versions of the NT floating about but, most were destroyed after the councils of Bishops declared anything but their versions heretical. After 492CE the first of the "Index" of banned texts was issued under the seal of the Bishop of Rome. That was when the burnings, massacres and dispersions redoubled.

I too have seen the Rylands Fragment and some of the others, but they are all individual texts not parts of codex even though some scholars maintain that the Rylands fragment was originally bound with others. I will wait for confirmation. Until then, my research stands.

MrHolbyta's picture
@old man shouts: I was

@old man shouts: I was addressing Diotrephes' comment that the Bible was written in the 7th century as a response to Islam which is outright nonsense. Sinaticus is absolutely the earliest extant complete text. Saying the Bible was written in the 7th century is just plain wrong.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Mark Weber

@ Mark Weber
Correction accepted...it always pays to put the @ and a quote from the comment to avoid confusion on this site as the posts are not linear.
And Diotrephes and I have had this out several times. You can try to convince him he is in error on this but to no avail. It is a shame as Dio is a fount of knowledge on the OT and the torah.

arakish's picture
As have I as I have

As have I as I have researched over there in the Levant and Middle-East.

rmfr

Rasster's picture
you will find slavery (the

you will find slavery (the feudal system), frequent political wars, rampant misogyny including sanctioned spousal abuse, and an endorsement of trial by combat among other things.

These are merely rules and traditions from the pagan society before it. As you know, things take a while to change. The apostles worked from the inside. Try to change the person and eventually abolish things like slavery.

*****

Regarding slavery. Church teaching does not practise or promote slavery, it liberates slavery by teaching a slave is no less of a person and no less value than a slave master, this was never heard of before christianity. Our Lord Jesus took on the form of a slave through poverty.

Source: https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/slavery

Within the article it says:

It says:

"Apostles brought into the new society which so rapidly grew up as the effect of their preaching... ... "For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal., iii, 27-28; cf. I Cor., xii, 13)."

and

"Religious equality was the negation of slavery as it was practiced by pagan society."

and lastly

"III. THE CHURCH AND MODERN SLAVERY: In the Middle Ages, slavery, properly so called, no longer existed in Christian countries; it had been replaced by serfdom, an intermediate condition in which a man enjoyed all his personal rights except the right to leave the land he cultivated and the right to freely dispose of his property. Serfdom soon disappeared in Catholic countries, to last longer only where the Protestant Reformation prevailed. But while serfdom was becoming extinct, the course of events was bringing to pass a temporary revival of slavery."

Sheldon's picture
"The apostles worked from the

"The apostles worked from the inside. Try to change the person and eventually abolish things like slavery."

Why, the bible and Jesus endorse slavery? The north American slave trade was an exclusively christian affair. The Ku Klux Klan is an exclusively christian organisation, or had you not noticed?

David Killens's picture
@ Rasster

@ Rasster

"These are merely rules and traditions from the pagan society before it. As you know, things take a while to change. The apostles worked from the inside. Try to change the person and eventually abolish things like slavery.

*****

Regarding slavery. Church teaching does not practise or promote slavery, it liberates slavery by teaching a slave is no less of a person and no less value than a slave master, this was never heard of before christianity. Our Lord Jesus took on the form of a slave through poverty."

Read the bible instead of going to a web site that is in the business of masking the atrocities committed by christianity. The bible is full of instructions on owning slaves, and nowhere was it in opposition to slavery. Your jesus stated that he was there not to change the old ways, but to follow them.

And your jesus did not take on the form of a slave. He was poor because he was an itinerant rabble-rouser, one who spent his entire adult life trying to control everyone else. Slaves do not take on followers.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
This has got to be in the

This has got to be in the running for one of the silliest most contentious posts...oh...now that has just proved a point...for a previous OP...listening Breezy? Your ears must be burning...

Many societies exited in many forms long before christianity. Most were moral, some were amoral, ( by today's standards) very few and they tended to self destruct. Roman civilisation, contrary to your erroneous mainstream christian beliefs was a melting pot of many religions and ways of life. All were tolerated providing that the tenets of Roman civilised discourse were respected. Nothing to do with a christ or a jesus or any obscure jewish sect until it was adopted by Mr and Mrs Constantine in the 4th Century. In fact jewish lore and synagogues were frequented and respected by a large portion of Roman citizenry because of their claim to an unbroken lineage and history. Flavius Josephus, a jew, was a pampered pet of the Emperor of his time.( even though he wrote appalling historical accounts by today's standards) Even after the Great Fire of Rome (60CE) the jews had their special status (of not having to sacrifice to the God Emperor) reinstated by 90 CE... and the only Jewish christians sacrificed at the time of the fire were torn apart by dogs and not in the Coliseum, according to contemporary records.

It is only after about 492CE that religious persecution became a major part of Roman life, and that was internicene pogroms between the ascendant Pauline Church and all the other "Christian" churches that did not adopt the Roman orthodoxy and Nicene Creed. It resulted in the deaths of thousands, the destruction of priceless documents and the establishment of a central religious/civil authority that today we would call fascism or totalitarian.

It is a lesson that it only took a hundred years after the establishment of Christianity as the State religion for Rome to collapse utterly as the standard of civilisation in the Western World.

So your initial premise is false. Therefore the rest of your argument is nonsense, based on erroneous information. Back to school with you. Its an 'F' this time.

(edit last para added for clarity)

.

chimp3's picture
How does a religion based on

How does a religion based on a torture murder teach young people to behave?

fruyian's picture
Ok. I am back from my

Ok. I am back from my holidays and now finished my studies.

Lets us see what we have here:

It seems like your first two claims are mere teasers i.e. an introduction or an abstract and then you seem like you are going to delve deeper into them in your main argument but all I see are attempts of justification of your 1st point a - being deprived of Christian morals is a bad thing (and past societies were worse off) and hardly anything on your 2nd point - the claim Western Society is built of Christian values.

Here is a link (http://docdro.id/dXQJ1fa) to a full argument I made, from info and work gathered throughout the interwebs but here is a summary below:

"when we deprive them from our Christian values on respecting life and the dignity of life.

Are moral standards based off of religion (in this case Christianity), or is religion based off of people's moral standards? Or is it probably something more complicated where all of these things play into each other? Why is that the most industrialized nations aren't theocracies? Or if not theocracies, why not copy religious values verbatim? Why is slavery allowed in the bible and yet (almost) everyone in the world thinks it's immoral?

We know it works literally the other way around than what you claim. The more modern secular an area, the less crime and immorality is seen. The violence that is statistically less common in places with lower rates of religion?
[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/mi...
[2] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eh1VW8SKuOk8qw1M4kNe-9LK0Ey46mnWS0P9TId...

The most violent nations tend to be the most religious. High rates of religiosity are a symptom of a broken society, not a quality of a well functioning one. Please, let's become more secular in modern terms because being religious results in more crime.
[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/history-and-the-decline-of-hu...
[2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/mi...
[3] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-decline-of-violence/
[4] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D3Qca3DfWF9xzXWVhfhrWUgx4qT0dtGWRsmn3WS...

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of no believers like Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland, Norway, for example, are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence that the perception of needing religious based laws like the outdated 10 commandments, whichever version, to know right from wrong, is incorrect.

"The whole western society was built on christian values which is rapidly being torn away by aggressive secularism."

Christians merely co-opted "values" that had been around for thousands of years prior to that. There was nothing new about the "values" in the Christian religion.

Part of Western society was indeed influenced by values espoused by Christian values but saying it was built on it as if there was nothing before IS wrong. Plus there are othe rparts of teh west that were never touched by Christianity and they turned out fine.

But, have you ever considered values aren't necessarily all beneficial to said society and many of them were directly counter to the good of society.

For example, until recently (historically speaking) Christian values included theocracy, permitting and even encouraging slavery as an institution, the ownership of women as property, the persecution of scientists on theological grounds, the beating of children, active discrimination against non-Christians, Divine command theory, discrimination and worse against homosexuals and other minority groups, the execution of 'witches' and teaching all and sundry that they deserved an eternity of torture unless they followed Christian rules.

Most of the really good parts of Western society were built on Enlightenment values. Some of these values pre-date Christianity, some are again Christian (or Christian-ish) in origin and other are explicit rejections of Christian values and stance.

Things like individual liberty, separation of Church and State, the applicability of the scientific method, a free press, proportional representative constitutional democracy, religious tolerance, verificationism and skepticism.

Rasster's picture
Most of my main post above

Most of my main post above refutes your comment, starting with my sentence my first sentence "A history check will show what societies were like before christianity,"

Christian values included theocracy, permitting and even encouraging slavery as an institution, the ownership of women as property...

and

"Or if not theocracies, why not copy religious values verbatim? Why is slavery allowed in the bible and yet (almost) everyone in the world thinks it's immoral?"

As regards slavery, Church teaching does not practise or promote slavery, it liberates slavery by teaching a slave is no less of a person and no less value than a slave master, this was never heard of before christianity. Our Lord Jesus took on the form of a slave through poverty.

Source: https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/slavery

Sapporo's picture
@Rasster

@Rasster
Ephesians 6:5 says "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

So, Christianity not only endorses slavery in this life, but in the afterlife also.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Rasster - As regards slavery,

Rasster - As regards slavery, Church teaching does not practice or promote slavery,

Not anymore. 150 years ago it was common to hear arguments for slavery in Protestant churches in the US; based on the bible.

The Catholic church set up rules for owning slaves in the 13th century, that were not overturned until World War I.

algebe's picture
@Rasster: As regards slavery,

@Rasster: As regards slavery, Church teaching does not practise or promote slavery

Oh no no no. Do you remember the story of how Jesus healed the centurion's slave? The Bible uses the word "servant", but it really means slave. Tell me where in that story Jesus tells the centurion that it's wrong to own another human being? There were slaves everywhere during Jesus' supposed lifetime. He would have witnessed mistreatment of slaves, including the torture and execution of runaways. Not once in any of the gospels does he speak out against slavery.

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