We Human are the only animal with thinking ability and intelligence. And we came to this stage through evaluations. So, I can say we are actually animals. And that is why though we are now able to think and have bigger brains, we sometimes act like an animal (act without thinking). I think everyone will be agreed on that.
So now, even at this modern society, we can see people acting like animals, so just think about the time of Moses, Jesus or Muhammad.
you can imagine the destruction of people; many bad things were occurred in the name of gods. Kings become gods, slavery was there, in some places women were rapes and slaughtered.
And time to time some people came to our earth with the aim to prevent these devils. They were different, they were thinker, I can assure you about that. they were not like others. But but, as they were not beyond the world, as they are human too, what did they do? they made new religions.
And each of them said his god was the true god and prohibited to do somethings and encourage to do some other things too.
To make others to believe about their gods, they made stories which got believed by the people. Later became holy books.
Yes, it was not that easy to make people believe. We all know one person even got killed.
Anyway, I think that time new religions were an effective way to manipulate mass number of people. to make people go in the right path. Though I wonder who tells them they were right.
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@ Hermit: "I think that time new religions were an effective way to manipulate mass number of people."
THAT TIME? I give you the Mormons and Scientology. I don't think Rastafarianism is far behind.
You have new religions popping up every day and people willing to follow them.
God Light Association. / 1986 by Ryuho Okawa
Raelism began in 1974 with a Frenchman named Claude Vorilhon.
"Body of Christ" and "Garbage Eaters," the Brethren are an apocalyptic offshoot of the '70s Jesus movement,
An offshoot of Mormonism that's constantly in the news for unsavory reasons, FLDS openly embraces polygamy, which the mainstream LDS outlawed a century ago. The group has anywhere from 6,000 to 10,000 members in rural Utah and Arizona,
Japanese doomsday cult Aum Shinrikyo, famous for its 1995 sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway, split in 2007
Formed in 1972 in Chattanooga, Tennessee, the Twelve Tribes have gone by a number of names, and have an international presence.
Catholic Freemason Paul Foster Case created the Builders of the Adytum in 1922, combining esoteric teaching, tarot, Masonic iconography, and Kaballah.
People are still doing it all over the world. Jesus of Siberia,
Puerto Rica Jesus and Austrailian Jesus are some of my favorite modern Bullshit religions.
Here we are in 2018 and nothing, nothing at all has changed.
@Hermit
Our animal part you got kinda right. I'd only fix that... we ALWAYS act like animals. Whether we like to think so or not, doesn't matter. The only good thing about all this - Cognitive ability. We tend to learn from our mistakes not just as individuals, but also as a society. Almost every animal does it, we simply take it to whole new level. Problem is - we also take our negative aspects to whole another level. We might be smarter, but other animals are far less cruel.
The indoctrination stories of religion generally fall under the same category: pick an existing story, and retell it in a context suitable to your own agenda, pretending that those stories themselves somehow prove the claim of (pick your favorite wacky BS), which it doesn't.
As for your assertion that "And time to time some people came to our earth with the aim to prevent these devils"...
Unfortunately, even if such people existed, they haven't been depicted in the three Abrahamic religions. There is no evidence proving their prophets existence and/or their good intentions. If anything, known history seems to indicate the opposite. And knowing human nature, even if there were decent, nice, educated people at those times - they probably would have been slaughtered as heretics.
"Anyway, I think that time new religions were an effective way to manipulate mass number of people. to make people go in the right path. Though I wonder who tells them they were right."
They are still just as effective, especially when taught to young children from birth. The problem with this tool for mass control remains as you stated - they rely on someone (usually human) to tell what's right and wrong. Which makes us return to your very first point - Human = Animal. Just smarter and much more cruel. Nothing can go wrong with that setup, now can it...
And then don't forget the Namandu Natuabun (meeting realm of the not believers) religion I started yesterday... It is ruled by the all not-omniscient, not-omnipotent, not-omnipresent, yet indifferent goddess Lysantra Erisatinathis Argolan. Unlike the gods here on Earth, she cares less what you think of her, than what you do for others. As she puts it, her greatest teaching is, "If you wish for your life to have meaning, then make someone else's life meaningful." And another, "Those who wish to dominate and promote the evil of faith, shall always find their reward is just like their faith."
Pronunciations:
Namandu: nah•mahn•doo
Natuabun: nah•too•ah•boon
Lysantra: lie•san•truh
Erisatinathis: e•ree•sah•ti•na•this
Argolan: ahr•go•lahn
rmfr
@arakish , @ Muashkis, @Cognostic
Really guys thank you for the knowledge Sharing. It's really a tragedy that still people are blindly become religious. What is the scarcity , why people need a religion. Why we can't just become moral by our own.
We don't need any god to good things. If there would be a true God, I think he would allow us to do as we want . As our wish. The real god would not interfere on everything. He would be out of everything. Right guys?
I gave you the answer to this one on the other thread you started. No need to repeat it here.
"A man in the wild..."
I totally agree, that was my point of view just before I finally discarded the notion of there being any deity at all.
Also, it make no sense that every apostle of Free Will still ends up postulating that We Must Obey The Lord. I have yet to find a definition of free will stating it's the same as "complete submission". I hope the atrocious nature of such claims speak for themselves.
A maxim I have when it comes to religion is that if an omnipotent deity exists who is at least as reasonable as myself, I have nothing to worry about. And if an omnipotent deity exists who isn't as reasonable as me, then I see no reason not to live reasonably, rather than try to second-guess the mind of an unreasonable being. And as you might have guessed, if an omnipotent deity does not exist, that doesn't change my philosophy.
Well stated. Neither possibility is a reason to stop trying to be the best human being you possibly can.
Here is a short essay I wrote and included with my Soul Shatter sharing. This short essay is NOT how I view the afterlife. However, if I were to be truly pushed into defining a god and an afterlife, this would be it. Although it is still full of holes,... Basically, if I were to believe in an afterlife, I would tend to view it just like the life we have here: "I just make the best of it as I can. The only purpose of life is life. What you make of it is what you make of it." As said, as far as I am concerned, the same goes for any afterlife.
A Story of My Visit With "God"
There was once I thought I had died. At least I think I did. I can remember this horrible screaming and a tumbling, then all goes black. After who can know how long, a light appeared. Funny, I thought to myself, this is familiar. Then the light appeared to move closer. As it came closer, or I was moving towards it, it seemed to be coming from the far off opening of a tunnel. Curious, I began moving towards that light. Then it dawned on me why this seemed so familiar. It looks exactly like all those Near Death Experience (NDE) stories I have heard and read about.
Wow, am I dead? I thought.
As I was approaching the light, I could see what appeared to be three persons moving about in the light. However, the shapes were exceptionally vague. As if they were not completely coherent. As if not fully formed.
At this time I am thinking to myself, What the hell is going on? Am I hallucinating? Am I dreaming? I use the standard idiot test of pinching myself, already knowing this ain't gonna prove anything. But I do it anyway.
Finally, I arrive and enter into the light. Whoa, I think. That was a trip. I can now see clearly as if it were nothing more than a clear, sunny day. However, there is no sun, just light. It is as if I am floating, suspended. Yet, I can move wherever I wish just by thinking about it.
Once I am into the light, I look. I am dumbfounded. There in front of me are my wife and twin daughters. What the hell..., I think.
"Sweetheart," my wife says as she closes for a hug. "Dad," my daughters say as they do the same. I almost succumb to the group hug and give in to the all too real emotions. However, being the onerous skeptic I have always been, I snap out of it. I release them and look deeply at them.
"Where are we?" I ask.
"Sweetheart," my wife says and places a gentle hand at my ear. "This is the Precipice."
"Precipice?" I ask.
"Yes, this is the Precipice before one enters into the Presence of God. What most people call Heaven."
I am dumbfounded. Why am I here? I think. I have never believed in any of this.
"How," I begin to ask, but she moves her hand to still my lips.
"Yes. We were all atheist in that life. It seems it actually matters not whether we believe or not in that life, but what we believe. Once the corporeal existence is over, we all come to the Precipice first. Then we enter into the Presence of God before coming to the Throne of Judgment."
"I still don't understand," I say.
"Come. You shall."
We then move deeper into the light. As we are moving, I can feel this complete awe, a something, a presence washing through me. It is almost as if I am now coming truly alive for the very first time. It almost feels as if I am being imbued with such power that only God should possess.
Then we come to a throne so huge it seems as if it could span complete continents, if it were on the Earth. And upon that Throne...
"Welcome," an all immense voice says, coming from everywhere, yet also seeming to come from nowhere.
"Whom may you be?" I ask.
"I AM THAT I AM," the Presence says.
Great, ask a stupid question...
"Why am I here? I have never believed in any of this," and I spread my arms to encompass all.
"You are here because this is where all living things come after their corporeal life has ended," the Presence says. "They all come here regardless."
After a pause of some time, "And..." I say.
"And I am the Crux of All. I am that which Brings Balance to That Which Exists. I am the Center of All Things. I am the Creator of The First Universe."
"But I have never believed in anything like your existence," I say.
"Of that I already know. And I now ask, why did you choose not to believe?"
"Lack of evidence. Virtually everything the Absolutists say about you is immoral and preposterous," I say. Then continuing, "Besides, have you read those books they have about you?"
"What books?" the Presence asks, almost as if it already knows the answer.
"One is called the Bible. Then there is the Qu'ran, the Torah, the Talmud, the Bhagavad Gita, and there are probably hundreds of others."
"Ah, you mean the collections of horror stories written by frightened primitive humans. Yes, I know of those books. I had nothing to do with what is written inside any of them. You see, they have it all wrong. All I have done is to create the structure of the Multiverse to hold all the universes within, of which they are infinite. I only sit at the Crux of All the Universes. I only created the First Universe, from whence you have come. After creating the First Universe, I left it alone. I let it become whatsoever it may. After the creation, I have had nothing to do with the First Universe."
"In other words, you left it to the Theory of Evolution," I said.
"Yes. That is an apt description, albeit, ultimately incorrect," the Presence replied. For some reason, it almost feels as if the Presence smiles, knowing who I am more so than I know myself.
"One thing you must understand is that an entity such as I that possesses the Ultimate Power of Creation also possesses the Ultimate Power of Destruction and can do nothing with his creation once created, except to destroy it. Essentially, there are only two things an entity such as myself can do: Create, or Destroy. I cannot nurture, I cannot aid, I cannot prohibit, I cannot interfere with that which I may create. If I were to reach into my creation to do anything, then my own Ultimate Power would utterly destroy that creation. If I so desire, I could send others back, such as yourself, since you now possess that Power, but of a much lesser degree, and you could do things within my creation. You could eventually bring about its utter destruction if you so wish. But even that would require much work and expenditure of your Power.
"And once there, to them, you would seem to be an angel. A being of mighty power."
"Have you sent others back?" I ask, interrupting.
"No. Once all those whom have found the truth about the Ethereal Existence of Eternity, all have chosen to exist within their own realm. Their own universe."
"Thus, the reason why there never has been any evidence. I can understand that. If I am given the Power and opportunity to spend this Ethereal Existence of Eternity with my family wherever I may wish, I would not want to return to that shit-hole for any reason."
"And we had to come here from ours in order to be with you," my wife says.
"Yeah, it was kind of growing dull being with the Simulacrum of you we had created. We wanted the Real You," my daughters added in stereo as was their wont.
"Ultimately, those, like you and your family, always show themselves to be worthy of this Power. It is persons such as yourself who choose not to believe in power, who choose not to seek for power, who choose not to possess power, ultimately prove to be the most worthy of the Power itself. Such are those who would actually not use the Power except to create their universe of existence in which to spend Eternity."
"But what about this Satan being all those Absolutists are always eluding to?" I ask.
"A fantasy. A personification for them to use to convince others they need to be controlled without actually saying they need to be controlled. And before you ask... Yes, ALL things come from me when I created the First Universe. Good, Evil, Love, Hate, Light, Darkness. Everything. For you must also understand that not even Nothing itself can exist unless its equal, yet opposite, counterpart also exists. And, yes, that means you cannot have Something unless you also have Nothing. That is why I am the Crux, the Balance, for all that exists.
"Those who choose to seek power over others, they are the ones who prove to be the most unworthy. They are the ones who ultimately receive the Ultimate Death of Non-Existence. For they have already chosen to have their heaven within the corporeal existence."
Then He pauses to look at me. It is almost as if He were looking into me.
"Yes. The ones you call Absolutists, especially the inexorable ones, but perhaps not all to whom you refer with that term, are the primary ones who seek power over others. To have their heaven within their corporeality. They seek to enslave and to control others. Seek to sap their mental will. Sap their mental faculties for free thought. And once they control the will, they continue to sap them for more and more control and power. Mostly in the form of beguiling theft of what is called money. And they tend to also do this through political offices where they exert their power and control to pass laws to favor their abilities and desires for even more power while in the corporeal world. They are the ones who create these fantasies about the true nature of Eternity. Those like you and your family tend to be more reasonable and more rational about everything. You still may not have it correct, but you Rationalists are usually as close to true as any of you can get.
"And, No. The corporeal life you had is not a test to see about your worthiness. Well, that is not exactly true either. Basically, it is the corporeal existence one makes for themselves which will also dictate the ethereal existence you will possess in Eternity. In other words, what you have made of life in your corporeal existence is also the life you shall have in the Ethereal Existence of Eternity. In other words, you now have the Power to create your own existence, your own universe within the multiverse, within Eternity. Whatever you may wish is yours."
And then I look to my wife and twin daughters, seeing the smiles on their faces, and the light begins to fade. I can only hope we are going to my idea of my heaven...
And then... Everything is a blurred fog. My mind a nebulous fugue. A floating blob of liquid glass. A spider web over my body. A blur of white. Then, fade to black...
Since the re-writing of this essay, I found this video on YouTube: The Greater Insult. It is worth watching, no matter your beliefs. As unbelievable as it may seem, I wrote the above before I found DarkMatter2525's video.
I also found this Power Corrupts series a short time later. Funny how the simulation world Jeffrey describes is somewhat similar to our own reality...
To get the entire gist of this essay, you may want to read the Soul Shatter sharing I wrote.
Dropbox Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hpmg07g1e5dc6ae/SoulShatter.pdf?dl=0
I have since added to the version above, including some of my other posts which delve even deeper into this sick mind of mine. I have yet to get it finished, but I am still working on it.
Basically, an omnipotent being could never touch his/her creation without also destroying it in the process.
rmfr
Dang, Arakish. Awesome story! Thanks for sharing that!
First of all, I must apologize for postponing the reading of your story. After skimming over it, I don't think I can take it, if I wish to sleep tonight. I must also apologize for mostly planning to do so more out of curiosity than compassion. Though I still truthfully appreciate opening yourself for other people to get a weak glimpse of your terrible circumstances.
As for the thought experiment of 'afterlife', I have done variations of those, though probably not as deep as yours. And the more I tried, the more I came to the same conclusion.
If a moral deity exists, I shouldn't have any reason to worry about possible afterlife. No matter how much I tried to twist and turn the three biggest religions. I found that only an immoral deity would condemn people to living on Earth. Oops, sorry, meant Hell... On this part I can completely understand Thunderfoot's video - it explained similar conclusions in a nutshell.
The only problem I came across upon exploring this topic was the need to instill our own perception on the deity. Abrahamic God archetypes didn't make much sense, despite being imaginable. Yet, the more featureless in my perception I tried to make the deity, the closer I got to observable reality. In the end, the only version that made the most sense was a take on Spinoza's God. A result I no longer dwell on, but which made me wonder, whether there were unnoticed, reality based biases involved in the process.
Either way, such exercises only enforced my stance. I found them time consuming, but healthy, not sure about the others.
@Muashkis
No apology needed. It is a tough story. Perhaps as tough to read as it was to write.
BTW: Here is the LATEST VERSION I finished. It is actually a ZIP file that contains both the PDF and ODT file. Although the ODT was written in LibreOffice, it should open fine in OpenOffice. Also, Word 2007+ does a good job opening it.
Yeah, Thunderf00t is great. Watched everyone of his videos, especially the "Why do people laugh at creationists" series.
"Yet, the more featureless in my perception I tried to make the deity, the closer I got to observable reality."
Thus, why I do not instill my perception on the Abrahamic God. That is why I came up with Lysantra, the all not-omnipotent, not-omnipresent, not-omniscient, yet indifferent entity. Not God, but an entity, like me, but not me. I am an entity.
Anyway, glad you join us. It is refreshing to see a new perspective on things.
rmfr
Urgh, when I'm finally done with it, you pop out another tough read *faceplants keyboard*
Oh well, DLded and will try again later. What I got from the previous read is enough for quite a bit of pondering already. Also - my sincere condolences, losses in family that I've experienced don't come even remotely near that much suffering...
And I named my cat God :) Though a part of my reason is his similarity to christian god in a way, as well as honoring the past civilization of Egypt. Either way, I completely agree that a God should offer some transparency to his subjects. So we don't run around blindly with no clue of what we are even doing.
PS: FINALLY returned home to my God, after a long trip from my Pops, including 4h of walking through and around a nature park along the way. Some insights and inspirations got there as well, aah, fruitful day...