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Khvhh's picture
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Tin-Man's picture
Namaste, Shalabh.... *palms

Namaste, Khvhh.... *palms together in front of chest*... *bowing slightly*... Welcome to the AR.

If I am understanding your OP correctly, you are basically asking why (as atheists) we would not attempt to try the methods theists suggest so that we might experience their particular god(s) and become believers. Is that correct? If so, then you should be aware that most of the atheists on this site were devout and faithful believers in their respective faiths prior to becoming atheists. I was raised as a Christian myself. Therefore, suffice it to say, many of us here have absolutely already attempted to "experience" his/her respective god(s) in his/her own way. And somewhere along the way, each of us of eventually realized that the dogmas we were trying to follow did not hold up to the scrutiny of logical/rational/critical thinking. As a result, we are now atheists, because we no longer believe in whatever god(s) we were raised to worship.

On the other hand, there are those rare lucky few here who never had to suffer through the mental anguish of shedding any form of religious indoctrination. In some ways I admit I am a wee bit jealous of those individuals, because it took me over forty years to break the chains binding me to the dreaded threat of hell. At the same time, however, I can better appreciate my freedom now, and I can totally relate to the theists who are having doubts but still trapped in the suffocating mire of their religious teachings. As such, it gives me a slight advantage in being able to assist those individuals who are having difficulty deciding which direction they should go. Rest assured, though, those here who have never had any religious experiences are ahead of the game, as far as I am concerned. Plus, they have been a major factor in helping me to fully shed the last few concerns of hell that plagued my subconscious for a majority of my life.

Anyway, as far as attempting any types of methods suggested by the theists who visit our site, it is (to put it lightly) an incredibly laughable idea. As you will likely hear from others in following posts, belief is NOT a choice. One does not CHOOSE whether or not to believe something. You either believe it, or you do not. For instance, if I were to tell you that you MUST believe I have a ten thousand year old fire-breathing dragon living in my garage, would you simply take my word for it and be able to believe it without me showing it to you? I dare say you would not... (At least I HOPE you would not believe me.) Same thing with atheists and any god(s). Theists claim their particular god exists and performs all sorts of miracles and has the power to create the universe and send us to heaven or hell and all sorts of other outrageous claims. The only thing atheists are saying is that, "We do not believe you." And, again, as I said, most of us here have already tried the methods suggested by theists to believe in their god(s). No need to try them again, as far as I am concerned. If their god wants me to believe in it, then it should be up to that god to get my attention and give me a reason to believe in it. And, as a side note, even IF any of those gods were eventually somehow proven to be true, it does not mean I would ever worship them. (But that is another story.)

Again, welcome to the AR.. Namaste... *palms together in front of chest*... *bowing slightly*...

(Edited to change name of individual addressed to the current name that user recently switched to in an apparent effort to somehow fool everybody... *rolling eyes*... Yo, Khvhh! You are not the only one on this site who knows how to edit! Will be editing other posts I made on this thread accordingly.)

Khvhh's picture
I agree with you.but

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Nyarlathotep's picture
@Shalabh Singh

@Shalabh Singh

Maybe you should make it more concrete; like with a specific example?

Khvhh's picture
Thanks for asking. Although

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Cognostic's picture
@Shalabh Singh: Well, we

@Shalabh Singh: Well, we all learned that you can take 50 words to say something that probably could have been done in 10 or less. "Is personal experience a path to truth." NO!

That's why we have the scientific method. We rip those silly assertions, bizarre connections, and assumptions out of your brain AND TEST THEM. If they have no effect on or in the real world, we can discard them. Real or not, they are the exact same thing as not existing. Your personal experience is not a path to truth. Believe as you like, but without empirical validation you are engaged in mental masturbation and nothing more.

Khvhh's picture
Why is the personal

Why is the personal experience not the path to truth?. Can you please explain it?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ S Singh

@ S Singh

Cog Explained it very clearly: Viz Believe as you like, but without empirical validation you are engaged in mental masturbation and nothing more.

Yogas, prophets, priests, all give varying ways to experience "the divine". None can be proved. Many are those that have "personal experience " of every god that has been known to man.

Without evidence my stance is "I do not believe you, I do not believe your personal claims for a god" You are welcome to your beliefs, I used to number many friends among sikhs, love the weddings!

However your entire faith is based on the revelations and personal experience of one man...who is dead. His memory and legacy lives on but...BUT..that does not make it a stronger truth than any of the other "revelation" based faiths in the world today.

Based on your OP I should visit every single yogi, guru, priest, shaman, Llama, pastor and find a direction or directions? Keep going until I find one?

Only works when YOU think you have found the one path which, coincidentally is the one you happen to follow.......

(edit: last sentence, cat hit send early)

Khvhh's picture
Lol "However your entire

Lol "However your entire faith is based on the revelations and personal experience of one man...who is dead"
You are assuming too much I have no faith. In fact I don't want to prove someone's claim that is dead. I am saying just improve your vision whatever is the truth you will see it. Dont do it to prove something. I don't want to convert you. I am just increasing the options you can have rest I upon you to explore.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ S Singh

@ S Singh

What options? I already said according to your OP I will be following the instructions of every preacher, yogi, Shaman, self appointed Prophet, Hamster lover, psychic and any other "spiritual guide" until the "right one" appears.

Can you not see what bollocks you are advocating? No one has that time.

Go home Shalabh you are drunk.

Khvhh's picture
I don't know why some people

I don't know why some people have difficulty in understanding that improving perception is a basic thing . It's not a path that you have to follow. You don't have to try all the paths just improve what can you see and that's it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Shalab

@ Shalab

In which case why don't you show us your solution if you have one?

I will try anything that works...so here is your chance, fire away. Otherwise you are just blethering without substance.

Khvhh's picture
@Old man

.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Shalab

@ Shalab

So how do you know I am not waaay ahead of you?

I asked for instruction, you gave me word salad with a dash of woo sauce.

So where is your willingness to impart your superior knowledge?

Khvhh's picture
@old man i don't know if you

@old man i don't know if you are ahead of me. That's good. I appreciate it. I don't have any willingness to impart any knowledge. Its not possible for me. All I can do right now is telling you that some things are possible that is beyond normal human perception so that you may awaken some willingness to search it for yourself. If you already know this I bow down to you. If you don't know this I can hope you will do something to search for it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Unsubstantiated blether.

Unsubstantiated blether.

Cognostic's picture
@Khvh: "It's not a path."

@Khvh: "It's not a path." THEN ONCE AGAIN WE ARE FINISHED. BYE...
YOU ARE CALLING IT "PERCEPTION" AND TALKING ABOUT "NOTHING."

cranky47's picture
How very patronising of you

How very patronising of you .It is you who assume too much. There is no way you could possibly know the options of which we are aware.

How arrogant of you to assume you have a greater knowledge of anything than any member here .

In my experience people who make the egocentric claim you have made tend to be especially ignorant .

Khvhh's picture
Yes I am ignorant ..whatever

Yes I am ignorant ..whatever I wrote was based on ignorance,it was bullshit. I am sorry for that

Cognostic's picture
@Khvhh: "yes I am ignorant .

@Khvhh: "yes I am ignorant ..whatever I wrote was based on ignorance,it was bullshit. I am sorry for that" GREAT! IGNORANCE IS THE PERFECT PLACE TO BEGIN.

PERHAPS YOU CAN START OVER NOW AND BEGIN BY **** CLEARLY**** STATING WHAT YOU WANT TO DISCUSS WITHOUT MAKING INANE ASSERTIONS.

Cognostic's picture
@Shalabh: Singh My

@Shalabh: Singh My discussion is for those who want to know the mysteries of life rather than beliefs on God.

BULLSHIT! Con man spiritualist knocking at the door. Why do you think life is a mystery? We know as much as we know and the rest we are attempting to discover. You think you know more.... WHERE IS YOUR NOBEL PRIZE? Either it is a mystery and you do not understand it at all, or it is not a mystery and you understand it. You should sign up for Hari Krishna Camp. You can only know through experience? HORSESHIT!

Khvhh's picture
I am also saying the same

I am also saying the same thing that we are attempting to discover. If I call the unknown a mystery and if you find it offensive please suggest me a new word I will use that.

Cognostic's picture
@Shalabh Singh: Ever been

@Shalabh Singh: Ever been on a psych ward? What do you mean why? Are you that dense!

Cognostic's picture
@If you accept your mystical

@If you accept your mystical beliefs based on experience and that is your criteria for truth, you must also accept everyone else's personal experience. You end up believing in every inane assertion that has ever been uttered. What in the hell makes you imagine your experience is more real than my experience? The Yellow Universe Creating Banana is the true creator of the universe and that is a fact. I know it in my heart. PROVE ME WRONG -

Khvhh's picture
First of all I haven't found

First of all I haven't found the truth. I haven't try to confirm any spiritual belief. I just tried to improve my perception and I am continually being so.
If many people like you reach the same conclusion of yellow universe .. I may try your methods without believing it if it's worthwhile to me. Or at least if you give me any scientific method I may try that method. Please give me but it should be observable to me

Cognostic's picture
@If many people like you

@If many people like you reach the same conclusion of yellow universe .. I may try your methods

Then you are acting like an idiot! Ad Populum Fallacy. Everyone once believed the world was flat, the moon was made of green cheese, and space was empty. How many people that believe in a proposition says NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT ITS VALIDITY.

RE: it should be observable to me.
NOW YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOUR ORIGINAL POST AND YOUR ASSERTION ABOUT FEELING BEING A PATH TO TRUTH. If it is observable to you it is observable to everyone else. If you are the only one observing it, you probably have a mental problem.

Khvhh's picture
No not necessarily may be

No not necessarily may be others have improved their perception. So they can observe but we can't.

Cognostic's picture
@Shalabh Singh: And how

@Shalabh Singh: And how would we know that? EMPIRICAL VALIDATION. If they have some special knowledge or fantastic incites, they will be observable, measurable, predictable, or USELESS AND NOT WORTH PERUSING.

Khvhh's picture
@cog you can ask them what

@cog you can ask them what did they do to observe what they are observing. You are also a human . Those methods can be observable, measurable often predictable but only you will be able to observe measure or predict. If it finds expression in physicality it can be measured by instruments also depending upon what kind of things have you done in your experiment.

Cognostic's picture
@khvhh: "First of all I

@khvhh: "First of all I haven't found the truth."

No shit! I could have told you that right after your first post. Guess what! You are never going to find it by relying on personal experience and ignorance of facts.

cranky47's picture
Do you think it's possible

Do you think it's possible that you haven't found 'the truth" because there's no such thing?

I say his because although I'm aware of lots of small truths, so fa I'm unconvinced there is such a thing as "THE TRUTH" . Perhaps that's why I have no patience with deluded individuals who claim to have found an absolute and exclusive truth. Such people tend to be a long on claims and short on proofs.

Very common among dogmatic believers of all kinds. This includes true believers of any political ideology.

In my experience an individual is most fortunate if he/she discovers any small personal truths. EG about 45 years ago, I solved a Zen Koan . It was a profound experience, a glimpse of a personal truth. However, I was then, and remain incapable of sharing that truth. .

The only answer of which I'm aware is 42.

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