What matters most is honesty. I believe that the only way to be a true athiest is to believe that all things spawned from absolutely no thing at all. Surely, big bangers will agree. However, once you've takin away all things, then what have you left? No matter, no energy, no awareness and NO ABILITY TO CREATE!!! Without the ability to create something, then, absolutely, nothing could ever come into existence. Again, this is because absolute nothingness lacks, even the very ability to create or bring something into existence at all. This means that, whether an athiest likes it or not, something(s), absolutely, had to ALWAYS exist, and whatever or Whoever that/It was (that always existed) had to have THE ABILITY TO CREATE ALL THINGS IN CURRENT EXISTENCE!!! Now then, inert dirt, water & a gravity theory might have the ability to make a mud patty, but what about an extremely intricate reproducing roducing set of 17 billion celled biological human beings, along with an equally complex living enviroment for them??? If modern worldly science couldn't even make a simple little, not so simple, lady bug (without pre-existing dna), then how intelligent MUST that ever existing ABILITY TO CREATE ALL THAT IS CURRENTLY IN EXISTENCE be??? Nothing short of everything that The Holy Bible reports Him to be!!! Happy 7th Day Sabbath. Praise Yah-Hoshua's Precious Name. Most Assuredly True & Truly True, Amen & Amen :-) :-)
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My my my, we have heard this argument from christians like you before. You ignore two things.
1) If you believe that something cannot come from nothing, then where did your god come from?
2) Science has already proven that something can come from nothing. It happens every day!
Don't miss the point, Sir. Nothing can, possibly, come from absolute nothingness. Afterall, absolute nothingness lacks the very ABILITY to create anything all. That means that The Ability to create had to ALWAYS exist before any created thing could exist at all. Furthermore, that ABILITY to create MUST be a whole lot more intelligent than modern man is (since we, ourselves, are the result of intelligence fashioning)!
@Kevin Houston
Bullshit. The study of nature has proven that something CAN and DOES come from nothing. It happens trillions of times a day right here on Earth.
If you'd get an education you might understand.
Now let me challenge your BS, Mykcob. How many experiments have you seen where a complete vaccum is created in a test tube, with no bacteria or anything else in it, then you comeback sometime later and something was created in it? Only in metaphysics, Sir. You have been hoaxed. Now think again how ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS which is THE ABSENCE OF ALL POSSIBILITIES could POSSIBLY produce something WHEN ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS LACKS THE VERY ABILITY TO MAKE SOMETHING POSSIBLE??? There absolutely MUST be the ability to make something possible in existence in order to make or produce something, and absolute nothingness lacks that ability. Metaphysics & psuedo-science has sold the world a bunch of popular satanic fairytales that causes them to redefine reality!
You deny science, REAL science that has been peer-reviewed and independently verified, in favor of a fucking bullshit myth from the bronze age, that has NO validity, cannot be substantiated and is only support by a highly edited (politically edited) book of allegory and hearsay.
Nope, I'm not buying it for one fucking minute.
Something from nothing has been proven, been duplicated by independent means and has been peer reviewed!
Your shit (myth) has not been substantiated by ANY credible means whatsoever!
@Kevin Houston: "The only way that something can come from absolute nothingness is if it ALWAYS did exist."
Perhaps you should define "nothingness", since it seems to be the entire basis of your logic and your religion.
Why does your Jesus look so European, and why is he holding an egg timer?
My God is The God of The Holy Bible. The drawing on my profile is just a simple rendition. However, the hour glass is to remind us that Grace's Probation Time is running out with each passing second. If you are not responsible for your own creation, you might want to honestly search for The Keys of Life. Because your life just might have a price tag, on it, that your butt ain't able to pay to easily!!!
Kevin Houston,
Who said that reality can ever be in a state of "absolute nothing"? Isn't that just an assumption? Maybe in Mother Nature's game the bottom floor is an empty space with quantum fluctuations. One of my posts, listed earlier, explores this idea.
I just can't bring myself to participate in this tired ass debate again. My hat's off to those with the stamina for this.
I second that.
@Kevin Houston: "Whoever that/It was (that always existed)"
So your god is omnipotent, eternal, all-knowing, unchanging? Is that right? Yet this omnipotent god created the universe at a certain time in the past, presumably because it couldn't do it any sooner. Something in this unchanging god changed to the extent that suddenly it decided that it would be a good idea to create a universe. Perhaps one day this omniscient god learned something that it hadn't known before and decided on that basis that it needed to create something. But why would an omnipotent, eternal god need anything?
And you know what, according to your bible, god got it wrong. Twice. The first time he created humanity they were flawed. Eve listened to the devil (also created by god). So god drowned everybody except for a human family and a zoo in a boat. But the world still wasn't right, so he made a virgin pregnant and had himself born as a human being, who grew up and was tortured to death to atone for the flaws in his own creation.
Your religion is a fake as the picture of WASP Jesus that you've chosen as your avatar. What's he doing with that egg timer?
God never changes where is morals and principles are concerned! However, He creates new things whenever He sees fit (not you)! In the Big Picture, God got nothing wrong. The great controversy that transpired in Heaven, then before Noah's Flood and now, before the fires of recreation were all predestined so that many (not all) could make AN ETERNAL CHOICE. Romans 9:11-23 assures us that some are HARDENED by God Himself. This is because if their was no certain certain bad guys to lead a rebellion then many of the free choice individuals would have no choice to make. If you feel you have a choice, Sir, then be wise and make the right one! We inherit the influence of fallen spirits, on our mind, who aim to make you more & more petlike to their fallen nature. All the while, such influence is performed subtly, under your perceptible wire. This way you see auch thoughts as natural, personal and not from an outside source. It takes a good understanding of God's Holy Word to truly tare through all of satan's matrix of tricks. Othetwise he will play each soul like an all day sucker, until it's too late to change! Truth is, by fallen nature, people HATE HOLINESS! However, I got honest, with God's Holy Word, because I fear His Judgement worse. Then I learned how much more I like PURE HOLINESS than PURE WICKEDNESS!!! Everything in between will have to wind up submitting to the leader of the most heartless atrocities.
...where as..
I like to think everything was always there in some form, be it matter, energy or some unknown form.
Some people are able to understand the concept of non-contradiction very easily, others struggle with it. If the science of evolution is true (and the evidence is huge, you live with it daily without realizing it) then the story of creation is false. If the story of creation is false then there was no tree of life, no original sin, so Jesus would have died simply because we humans were very ignorant at one time and killed people horribly for senseless reasons.
Then we can look at other evidence like Noah's ark and all the evidence of written history throughout the entire time giving no evidence of anything remotely like a global flood. This is just another case of using the law of non-contradiction and say a civilization cannot leave a written record of existence if they are under tons and tons of water.
Then we can tackle each of the contradictions in the bible themselves.
And when you are done dismissing all of that evidence because you have no concept of the law of non-contradiction you can tackle mykcob4's question about the origin of your deity.
@Kataclysmic "so Jesus would have died simply because we humans were very ignorant at one time and killed people horribly for senseless reasons."
I wish I could say that people have gotten better since then.
No. Rather Christ (God) GAVE His life, as an act of only THE TRUEST KIND OF LOVE, so that past sins (that are worthy of eternal death in God's Creation) could be forgiven, and so then God's Holy Spirit could enable you to withstand the enemy's (satan's) temptations. God created a great controversy of Lawfulness vs. lawlessness so that the majority of His created beings could makr a free will choice. You see, God was all alone in existence and it came to a point that ininteligible darkness, in the form of ACUTE LONELINESS would attempt to snuff out The Light's Life Force!!! However, God is GREATER THAN DEATH/NONEXISTENCE!!! Therefore God would prepare for Himself suitable fellowship/friends. However, the PRICE WAS GREAT!!! Robots can be programmed to say I love you, repeatedly. However, this fakeness would never take away God's Acute Loneliness Problem! It required an enviroment that is suitable for free-willed creatures to make a CHOICE (both on the higher/Heavenly level, as well as the Earthly...so that tha maximum number of friends could be reaped, before the tempt-tester be cast into nonexistence forever).
Hi Kevin,
"You see, God was all alone in existence and it came to a point that ininteligible darkness, in the form of ACUTE LONELINESS would attempt to snuff out The Light's Life Force!!!"
Where in the bible does it say that god was lonely?? Are you admitting that god is not omnipotent?
Should "Omnipotent" mean that He has no feelings or that He could not go into nonexistence, if it were not against His Very Nature??? Now then, The Holy Bible not only has teachings, in the straight forward application, but prophetical as well as allegorical (or stories with in stories, for the more advanced pupils). Infact, the Apostle Paul gives us a good example of such an allegory (bigger picture messages) at Galatians 4:22-31. The same comparison can be done with the idea of the first & Second Adam's mentioned at 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. When you know enough about the two the comparisons become so phenomenal that you will just have to read my report to fully receive it all properly. Just email me at: jc4bckh1979@gmail.com After reading it you'll wonder why it wasn't more obvious in the straight forward reading sense. After all, Tha Scriptures make it blatant that God is The Ever Existing One Who created us all. But why would he do that? Couldn't He had just been satisfied with making rocks and sticks? Why would He do all this for a church that He refers to, figuratively, as His Bride??? Notice Genesis 2:18 & 20 how God intended to make the first Adam a suitable help meet/wife because …it was NOT good that he be ALONE"! In The Bible, what is not good is akin to sin and the result of sin is death (Romans 6:23). It's obvious that God goes from being alone to having His Church Bride of Suitable Friends for all eternity, in a place where sin will be no more! Cause & Effect should tell us that loneliness was the cause for the effect and that the end would have to justify the means. However, if you email me then I will send you my report thst explains it in full detail and in NO uncertain terms :-)
I totally believe in The Law of NO Contradiction too! That's the whole basis for my post. Remember, TRUE NOTHINGNESS is the ABSENCE Of all things & all possibilities (including the possibility for anything to ever come into existence). Once you get a good goOD GOOD taste of just what that means, then you will ask yourself the all important question! What is it that ALWAYS EXISTED that has THE ABILITY to bring creation to such an complex state as is in the current time we now live in? Now then, if human beings are far fAR FAR too inintelligent to make any form of biological life, without THE, PRE-EXISTING, DNA BLUEPRINT OF ENCODED INTELLIGENCE, then how can you ascribe such a task to a premordial soup & chance?
Hey there Kataclismi. I had answered you but it was thrown further down the thread. It is the one that starts off saying how I totally beleive in THE LAW OF NON CONTRADICTION too!
The problem is that we don't understand the properties of "nothing". It's difficult to even comprehend what that is. But in a true state of "nothing" strings and quantum foam pop into existence. It's important to note that these are not atomic creations because atoms won't exist for a very long time (there's no way to measure time at this point). Then neutrinos form and create a family of various quarks. These quarks create the weak force which leads to the protons and neutrons, resulting in the formation of the hydrogen atom. Once the hydrogen atom is formed it clumps together into giant balls and then goes nuclear, creating a star. The star process then cooks up heavier elements. Planets are formed and they produce various organic molecules and even some new elements. If the conditions are right the organic molecules form living organisms which evolve over time.
In case you've never seen it the process it is explained in the interactive "The Scale of the Universe 2" at http://htwins.net/scale2/ Move the slider bar all the way from left to right to run through the program.
BTW, there are several huge voids of "nothing" that have been detected. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/11550868/Giant-mysterious-... There's no way to know what's going on in them but they could be creating hydrogen, which will lead to stars and galaxies.
Want to know why it's so hard to imagin nothingness? It's because you are trying to make something out of it in your mind. Why would you turn to pduedo science, that describes "Time" as being a physical netted fabric that is sprawled out accross space and can be warped or bent. But that is IMPOSSIBLE because time is just A MEASUREMENT/A CONCEPT OF COUNTING!!! Now then, why would you look to fallen worldly psuedo-science to bewitch you on the concept of NOTHINGNESS??? It is really very veRY VERY EASY. JUST TAKE AWAY ALL THINGS, ALL ABILITY, ALL POSSIBLITY...EVERYTHING...NOW YOU HAVE NO POSSIBILITY OF ANYTHING EVER EXISTING EVER!!!
Time is a human label placed so we can understand it.
Kevin Houston,
Do you really think that someone sat down and designed a ladybug? Haven't you ever heard of evolution?
We've responded to these amateur-hour arguments many times! Go to the thread "Differences In Approach" and check out my post on 12/20/2016 19:19. As for the fact that good reasoning does not point to God, go to my post "Science Gives God The Bump!" (08/07/2016 18:46). As for biblical authority, check out my thread "Flat-Earth World" (03/23/2016 16:53). God's confusion over mold may be appreciated in my threat "Bible Follies: God is Confused ABout Leprosy and Mold" (07/27/2016 00:53).
Do I think that intelligence designed a lady bug? Can a lady bug survive without it's legs or wings? Of course not! So why are they, intelligently, placed on the little beetle's body then? Intelligence says it's because it will need it to survive! Nonintelligence will overlook this fact. Now the next step: how much itelligence does it actually take to make such intricately fashioned & workable bioligical faculties, to scoot around with? When you walk into a Radio Shack do you just assume that the intelligently assemble equipment evolved there as of coincidence? Can't you even tell when you are existing in The House of Another's Handy Work???
Do I think that intelligence designed a lady bug? Can a lady bug survive without it's legs or wings? Of course not! So why are they, intelligently, placed on the little beetle's body then? Intelligence says it's because it will need it to survive! Nonintelligence will overlook this fact. Now the next step: how much itelligence does it actually take to make such intricately fashioned & workable bioligical faculties, to scoot around with? When you walk into a Radio Shack do you just assume that the intelligently assemble equipment evolved there as of coincidence? Can't you even tell when you are existing in The House of Another's Handy Work???
Do I think that intelligence designed a lady bug? Can a lady bug survive without it's legs or wings? Of course not! So why are they, intelligently, placed on the little beetle's body then? Intelligence says it's because it will need it to survive! Nonintelligence will overlook this fact. Now the next step: how much itelligence does it actually take to make such intricately fashioned & workable bioligical faculties, to scoot around with? When you walk into a Radio Shack do you just assume that the intelligently assemble equipment evolved there as of coincidence? Can't you even tell when you are existing in The House of Another's Handy Work???
@Kevin Houston: "So why are they, intelligently, placed on the little beetle's body then? Intelligence says it's because it will need it to survive! Nonintelligence will overlook this fact."
Have you heard of evolution? Ladybugs developed incremently from other species. A mutant or variant without wings or legs wouldn't have been viable, so it wouldn't have survived long enough to breed. a ladybug with slightly stronger wings or better senses would have prospered and passed on those new genes.
If life was intelligently designed, why have the vast majority of species gone extinct? Or are you one of those theists who think god is a devious bastard who sprinkled geological layers with fake fossils just to mislead us?
Coincidence? Who knows what could happen over four billion years in a vast range of environments all over this big planet? And don't forget that there are trillions of planets in the universe. Can you even conceive how big these numbers are? Maybe once every few billion years on one planet in every billion something as strange as life could happen.
I hate it when people trivialize this amazing world and universe with fairy stories about sky-daddies.
Well then maybe now you know how I feel, Sir. After all, I view your evolution as evilution, "science falsley socalled" (1 Timothy 6:20. I applaud you for giving me that chance to free-style a bit. First of all you should of heard of Glen Rose, Texas (like many other places) that found modern man's footprints, inshrined in limestone, right in the middle of a t-rex's footprint on the dried up Paluxy River bed. They both existed at the same time period (before Noah's Flood). Yes. The Old Testament spoke of a behemoth (bronosaurus) that had a tail the size of a Lebanon Tree. Are not mollusks in the lowest strata of your evolution, and yet they still live in oceans to this very day?One day you may wake up and find out that satan really is responsible for deceiving all the worldlings, just like The Bible attests. Perhaps the unproven & untestable THEORY of gravity is really nothing more than the objects, that are more dense than the fluid enviroment that can not support it's weight! And yes, air is a gaseous liquid. And any time the object is less dense and lighter, than the water or air fluid enviroment, then it will be come buoyant and float. The gravity fable should have nothing to do with the buoyancy formula! You might also find out that the 1969 moon landing was a hoax and there is so much proof to back that up it is utterly laughable. Besides, all through history many reputable people have reported stars shining right through the moon. That is because it is transparent and NOT terra-firma. No matter how high a plane flies the horizon is always flat! There is absolutely NO testable curvature to the planetarium Earth that we live in. Both the sun & moon are only about 3,000 miles high & 30 miles wide each! The stars are much muCH MUCH smaller than you've been lied to in satan's public school system. They are about 6,000 miles high. God placed them in the giant, lightly swirling, sea of water that is just underneath the glass firmament dome, that covers our flat circular Earth. Think I'm lying??? Did you know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a rainbow, indoors, without a glass mirror? Then if you use a flat glass mirror, the result will be a flat rainbow. However, God makes arched rainbows in the sky all the time? Where is the NEEDED glass to make it. Job 37:18 will school you on the matter! If you ever seen a sun dog, in nature, then you should be able to easily understand how we have a giant glass firmament dome, about 7,000 miles over our head. The so called planets are really just "Wandering Stars". Pluto does not exist, except in nazi nasa cgi pics. The stars were created by soundwaves that God "Spoke"into existence. Look up sonoluminisence and wonder why it's not taught in school. It's because it verifies The Holy Bible!!! Antarctica is not a contenant at the bottom of satan's ficticious heliocentric globe model, but rather it is a 200 foot ice wall that encompasses the entire perimeter of this (closed in) flat geocentric creation of God Almighty (Who's Heavenly Kingdom is on top of the glass dome)! All this is but the tip of the ice burg. Why do you think Antarctica is off limits to all civilians? Hey, if the Earth is a globe that revolves around the sun then why does the Earth's night time, during, both, the summer and winter solstices, actually view the same stars, in one sector of the universe that is a complete 180° opposite from the other (all year long)??? The Bible teaches True Physics & satan's fallen world teaches metaphysics!!!
Just an answer for the rainbow assumptions you're making...
Water droplets rainbow indoors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3s3brzY0Bk
Explanation:
https://youtu.be/5pYnC-ONdXQ?t=132
Edit:
This can be replicated at home. It's not hard at all.
And this confirms that assumptions you've made (probably because you believe what others have told you) are incorrect. Now, since you believed these assumptions were correct, is it possible that other things you that you have assume to be true, are in fact false?
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