Just looking for someone to dialogue with about being an atheist and why they don't believe there is a God.
Looking forward to chatting!
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Welcome ChristFollower! How are you my friend?
I am well! How are you?
There are way too many reasons why I don't believe there is a god.
1. Contradictions in the Bible are constant.
2. When christians tell me theres a loving god I say then why did he make me if he knew I was going to hell. And I definitely will if your god is real, because I call major bullshit on him.
3. Natural catastrophes. Thanks god. Great idea to murder the people you love
4. If the god of the Bible were real I would liken him worse than Hitler because of his mass brutal genocides.
But thats just a few reasons:)
Hi Jamie! Thanks for your response!
I don't have enough hours in the day to reply thoroughly to your statements, so I will reply as succinctly as possible to each of them and if maybe you want to dialogue about one or maybe two of them at a time that would be great.
1. Can you state specifically the contradictions in the Bible that concern you the most and maybe we can discuss them.
2. This is obviously a pretty deep one with deep philosophical implications about Divine foreknowledge. My quick response is that since you don't know the future state of your heart, how can you be certain that you won't accept Him in the future and He knows that? A lot can happen in life, and people have been known to change their minds about things here and there. Again, this is pretty deep so if you want to go further on it we certainly can.
3 & 4. These are relatively similarish so I will respond to both in one if that is ok? Both of these appear to be an indictment on God's character as it relates to divine punishment. Now you used the terms murder and genocide. Can you define for me what you mean by those terms so that I am not assuming my own definitions? Would you call death by natural causes murder? The reason is that people who die by say a tornado, and people who die by say a heart attack both die by natural causes so I just wanted clarification. Also, what is the moral foundation by which you would call what God does murder? Is it cultural or transcendent in some way? There is more I could ask but hopefully this is enough to get us started. Also, since I have already babbled on about murder, maybe we talk further about genocide in the next post.
Thanks so much for your time!
Look forward to speaking more!
Thanks for your response ChristFollower
I was cutting and pasting but heres a link that has a lot of the answers to your questions. Its all based from the Bible you believe in.
You statement that I don't know the future star of my heart is true. That isn't what I'm basing my future on, because from experience my heart can be way wrong. I spent years and years worship and loving the god you choose and my knowledge of the truth tells me that was not only a huge waste of time, but a hindrance to developing relationships with people with different views. Now I'm not afraid to talk with you or a satanist or any sort of believer because its me who makes up my mind about things. I don't rely on faith to solve my problems
Yes, but I usually prefer dialogue via email as forums have a lot of clutter...but that's just me.
Hello ChristFollower: "why they don't believe there is a God."
Perhaps we can find an answer to that question by considering why you believe in Christ (judging from your pen-name) and not Jupiter, Venus, Amaterasu, Baal, Krishna, Ra, and all the millions of other gods that litter human history. What's special about your god? How do you know that your god isn't just like all the others?
I believe in Christ because history supports both his existence and his resurrection, and so that is why I trust in His claims. The list that you gave after, I simply haven't seen good historical evidence to support their existence so I don't have any good reasons to believe in them.
The quick response to your question about what is special is that He is the best explanation that I have heard of for reality being the way that it is. The reason that I 'know' is all of the evidence I have seen to this point find their best explanation being the God of the Bible.
Can I ask you how you know what you believe is the truth?
Thanks! Look forward to speaking with you further!
@ChristFollower: "Can I ask you how you know what you believe is the truth?"
Well first of all, disbelief is the default position for a human being. We aren't born Christian or Muslim, etc. Religion is a man-made concept that we learn willy-nilly along with toilet training, reading and writing, and arithmetic. So the onus of justification is really on those trying to sell the belief.
Second, there is a balance of credibility. If you'd never heard the story of Genesis, the Flood, Jesus' birth, death and resurrection, would you believe it? An all-powerful being created the Earth, life, and people, but it all went wrong so he drowned everyone except one family on a boat full of animals (presumably including elephants, kangaroos, armadilloes, kiwis, etc.). The reboot also went wrong, so he tried to fix it by making a teenage girl pregnant so she would bear the son of the god who was also god and would be tortured to death before coming back to life. Have I missed anything out? I find the entire narrative completely insane. The Santa Claus is more believable.
Third, where is your historical evidence of any of the events in the Bible? All of the gospels were written long after Jesus' death. There is no credible physical evidence. There have been no credible miracles ever.
Fourth, there is historical verification of Zeus/Jupiter that is just as credible as anything in the Bible. When Athens was under attack by Xerxes of Persia in 480BCE, the Athenians consulted the Oracle of Delphi. The message they got was that Zeus would ensure that their "wooden wall" would not fail. Sure enough, Athens was saved by its fleet of wooden ships in the Battle of Salamis. The Romans also worshipped Jupiter and were able to build a global empire. The Jews, who worshipped your god, lost everything when they tried to take on the Roman superpower. Gold looted from god's temple in Jerusalem paid for the Colliseum.
I'm an Atheist due to the lack of evidence that any of the gods are real. Humans created religion to control the masses. Humans created the gods to explain lies mysteries. Science has explained away almost all of the mysteries of the gods.
A couple of things...
1. While I can certainly agree that religion has been used by corrupt men and women to control others, I'm just not sure that I have enough evidence to support the fact that the motivation of those who were at the time starting their respective religions were motivated by controlling the masses. Do you have any evidence to support this? For instance, as a Christian when I look at what was gained by the earliest followers of Christ who were spreading His message, the only thing that it gained them was torture and death for the most part. I guess I would have expected them to deny their faith when faced with this if in fact they knew their message to be a lie. To me, being willing to face what they did because of their message seems to fit more reasonably into the camp of them being convinced that their message was true. I welcome further thoughts on this.
2. I totally agree that humans invented gods, for many reasons, including as a way to explain what they didn't understand. But just because some or even most did this, it does not in and of itself prove that all of them did. Even if only one person had a genuine experience of the divine, then it is still true that God exists.
3. I appreciate all that science has done to enrich the lives of all of us, I truly do. The issue that I have is that some of the things that science hasn't explained or proven are quite fundamental. For instance, the beginning of the universe. To this point, the best evidence that we have is that the Universe came into existence a finite time in the past, and it came into existence from nothing. I see no good reason to believe that anything, let alone the entire universe, can pop into existence from nothing without a cause whether philosophically or scientifically. Since nature (time, matter, space, etc...) were the effect, then we know logically that they couldn't be the cause simply because they couldn't exist prior to their own existence. Therefore, the cause has to be spaceless, timeless, personal ( because whatever it was chose to create, whereas physical laws don't make choices they just repeat the same thing over and over), and quite powerful in order to create an entire universe. I welcome further discussion on this point as I am sure that you will probably disagree.
I have written enough to this point, but hopefully what is there can help create further conversation.
Thanks again for your time Xenoview! Have a wonderful day!
Why do you believe in a fairy tale written by unknown people who claim that imaginary people had real experiences with a cosmic deity when there's zero evidence that any of it is true? Are you that trusting in all of your business relations? You believe in angels, right? If you were buying a house would you believe the real estate salesman if he told you that actual angels had built the house?
You want evidence of religion controlling people. Look at the church sanctioned crusades in the middle ages. Look at the Spanish Inquisition, that was about controlling people, forcing them to be christians or face torture and death. The universe appeared over time, taking billions of years to reach it's current size. Do you have any testable evidence of a god or gods exist?
Sure. Chat about what? Theism? Atheism? Better displayed as north and south on a compass than described in dialogue, though. You can have north and I'll take the warmer climes.
But, can you answer some questions?
1. Who first told you there's a god?
2. Why did you believe it?
3. Why do you still believe it?
4. Is fact or faith your perception of it?
These are all very familiar to atheists who had to truthfully answer them for themselves, after much exposure to the historicity of theism in all its myriad contrivances and assertions, and ultimately acknowledge an honesty that even the most persistent and trusted symbol of faith known to them could dissuade them of.
Hi Pitar! Thanks for your response!
1. The first person who told me about God that I can remember was my grandmother
2. At the time, I trusted her because to that point in my life she had shown herself to be trustworthy. I was very young when this happened
3. This would take a little longer to discuss in its fullness, but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. I did grow up in a Christian home, but unlike many Christian fathers my father was always challenging me as to why I believed what I claimed. As you can imagine, as a kid, I didn't have a lot of great answers. This culminated in a conversation on the day that I graduated from Highschool when he again asked me why I believed in God. He told me that he wasn't convinced that I actually did and told me that as an adult I needed to take responsibility for my own beliefs and to make sure that I wasn't just riding along based off of his beliefs. That was almost 22 years ago. As objectively and honestly as I could, I have spent those years pursuing that question. Being completely honest, I still have mornings that I wake up and wonder if I am right. But at this point I am convinced of the truthfulness of Christianity.
4. Both. Most people get hung up on the word Faith, but for me faith is entrusting myself to the evidence and my ability to interpret it. This may seem like an odd question, but I would be interested in hearing what you mean by the word fact, and how we come to the conclusion that something is a fact?
Thanks again Pitar! Look forward to speaking with you further!
Christfollower. As far as I am concerned, you need to prove that your god exists. That is just the first step. I don't need to justify not believing in your god. That is having it backward.
I've heard this argument before, but I don't quite agree. Even if my worldview is wrong that doesn't prove that yours is right. You are still in the position to provide positive evidence for your particular worldview. I'm sure that you've heard the phrase "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." If you believe your position strongly I would assume that you have positive evidence to provide in its favor.
Atheism is NOT a worldview! It is a stance on one, just one, assertion...that the existence of god(s) has not met an acceptable level of proof. I'll repeat, atheism is NOT a worldview. Your religion, however, is.
I was actually coming back here because after thinking through it, what i stated was wrong. Hopefully what I say now will be more accurate.
What I meant is that there are evidences that I believe that support my belief in God which is part of my worldview. Even if the evidences that I hold to would be shown to be wrong that does not by itself show that God does not exist and so arguments would still need to be made to positively argue for atheism.
Also, why do you consider my 'religion' to be a worldview? I've always considered it to be a part of my worldview. There are other parts of my worldview that are unrelated to my belief in God. For instance, 2+2=4 is not built upon my belief that God exists.
Can you explain to me what you mean by the word 'proof'? Also, are the acceptance levels of proof personal or transcendent in nature in your view?
Thanks for the correction to my previous statement Cyber. Very poorly written!
Why do you want there to be a God?
Do you believe in the mighty Mud Worm God Tilos on the planet Kitul in the Andromeda Galaxy? He's coming here in another 4 billion years.
I don't 'want' there to be a God, He just happens to be the best explanation for reality.
Since you made an assumption about my motivation for belief in God I believe turnabout is fair play. Why do you 'want' there 'not' to be a God?
@ChristFollower: Well, let's start by speaking with propriety. No, you believe that god exists, I know that god doesn't exist. That's precisely the difference, here you're the believer, not me.
Can you define for me what you mean by the world 'know'? Specifically, what criteria are sufficient for 'knowledge' to occur in your mind? Additionally, can you define for me what you mean by the word 'believe'?
You believe that god exists, as a child believes that there's the fairy of the teeth, or that Santa brings the toys at Christmas. You believe like a child, but children evolve, they realize things, they understand what's a hoax. You don't. How can we call an adult person who believes in imaginary friends who talk to him, ask him for things and whom he longs to hear? Schizophrenic? And if you can hear them, what is it called if you can hear, or see those imaginary friends? Psychotic schizophrenic?
So far the definition of "believe"... Although I think I have also included "believer", calm, I will not charge you.
What is it to know? Ask him... https://youtu.be/VuyYGVDCdN0
So that we understand each other, I KNOW that god doesn't exist because it ISN'T necessary, there's no divine plan, didn't make the universe, didn't create the Milky Way, solar system, life and it will not be responsible for turning off the sun, that will happen when the hydrogen runs out, and I know it because science exists for that... oh, you believe that science exist, Right?
You're Welcome, ChristFollower!
ChristFollower: I do not believe in your god or any other. No one has been convincing enough for me to cast away my doubt. I also find your Jesus story immoral. The idea that a father would torture his own son to death to forgive someone else is a sickening idea. People should be ashamed to spread such ideas.
The idea of God sacrificing Jesus is based on the Fourth Commandment in Exodus 34:19-20 (CEB) = "19 Every first offspring is mine. That includes all your male livestock, the oldest offspring of cows and sheep. 20 But a donkey’s oldest offspring you may ransom with a sheep. Or if you don’t ransom it, you must break its neck. You should ransom all of your oldest sons. No one should appear before me empty-handed."
Remember, God went on killing sprees where he killed all of the first-born, including people.
One of the extortion rackets the Levites ran was that people had to fork over money to the priests when they had their first child. They were just gangsters.
Hi Chimp! BTW... I love monkeys and chimps, so your picture is awesome!
In your post you said that the 'Father' tortured Christ, but wouldn't you agree that it was the Roman's who actually did this? I totally agree that the Father and the Son had an agreement for Him to come and endure this torture, so there is responsibility on part of both the Father and the Son that it occurred, but the torturing was caused by the Romans.
Why do you find it immoral that Christ would take upon himself the punishment that we deserve for our sin? Do you believe that God doesn't have the right to determine for Himself what He finds acceptable as a just punishment for sins?
jesus was sent by god to die for our sins? So god knew that jesus would be tortured and killed by the romans? So ultimately god was responsible for jesus' death right? I don't believe in your god or jesus. I don't believe in sin either.
@Christfollower: "wouldn't you agree that it was the Roman's who actually did this?"
Did the Romans, the Jews, Judas have any choice? The whole bloody drama was all preordained by god, wasn't it?
ChristFollower: I do not believe in god. I do not believe Jesus existed. I think the people who wrote the crucifixion myth were bloodthirsty and violent. The crucifixion myth reflects this. I was addressing the moral lesson of the crucifixion not any real event. So, do I think god has a right to determine punishments? The real question is do I think people who invent stories like this and spread them through time have the right to determine punishment for "sins". The answer is no. It is time we stop embellishing our hatreds and blood thirst with religious drivel.