Are there other options than God?
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That doesn't answer the riddle.
Have you ruled out the existence of Thor? Ra? or any of the other 3997+ gods?
Tell me how you did it without discriminating.
It's simple, I didn't go to a god I learned about. I went to the source of life and creation. "It" led me to the truth. Give it a shot if you like.
Read that again. "I didn't go to a god I learned about". So you were told about a god, and you believed.
Only children believe in gods because they believe what they are told, weak adults just fear the possibility.
When you ask for options, are presented with thousands and then use discrimination to dismiss them, you are just a child.
Sounds like you've got it all figured out then.
No God because of too many gods
"Sounds like you've got it all figured out then.
No God because of too many gods"
That's not remotely what Kataclismic said, are you being deliberately dishonest in misrepresenting him?
It's a simple enough premise, what *OBJECTIVE* evidence can you demonstrate that your deity is any more real than the others, Thor, Zeus, Apollo, et al? The quantity of deities simply lends credence to the fact that humans create fictional deities, and you believe that as well or you couldn't be a monotheist. It's meaningless to talk about your experience in the same fashion all the adherents of all those other deities do, and think this is an objective reason for me to believe you alone have found the real deity in all those thousands of fake ones humans have created.
What will differentiate your deity from Zeus and Thor and all the others is an appropriate amount of objective evidence, until then there simply is no rational difference.
That's just a childish remark. The only thing I figured out is that you discriminate and as I said before, I don't.
@ "God is of spirit so that's what I go with."
Please demonstrate the existence of anything at all called a spirit. The word "spirit" is a place holder for the expression "I don't know." The word is used by the religious so that they can pretend like they know something that they obviously and demonstrably do not know.
@ "would I even be able to be aware that was wrong about God? "
If you want to know what is wrong about God, read your Bible. The Christian version of God is a complete asshole. Imagine you are at school and some classmate takes your books and will not give them back. Are you going to kill the parents of every student in the school? No? Then you are more moral than your god. That is exactly what your god does in Egypt.
Let's say you are in charge of the US army and you are going to go after ISIS. Are you going to nuke every Muslim on the planet? Are you going to kill the men, women and children? Are you going to cut open the stomachs of pregnant women and throw their unborn babies onto rocks while laughing about it? No? Then you are more moral than your god.
What's wrong with God? Really? Even if your god was real. Even if it was some sort of existent being. Even if it is the creator being of the universe. It is completely unworthy of worship. Would you worship Hitler? There is very little difference between the Christian God and the infamous butcher of humanity who tried to wipe out the Jews, men, women, children, and even their livestock. GOD LIKE HITLER WAS A COMPLETE ASS!!!
@ all the above comments
I know it's crazy. I know a lot of people potentially have got it wrong. None of us could ever get it perfect. I really was hoping y'all would be able to come up with something better than more evidence, religiousness, and prayer holes, for why no God final answer. All I'm saying is there is far too much undiscovered about our proverbial internal worlds to completely rule out the nature of our souls. Either God is or God is not. It boggles my mind to think of completely cutting off the longing to experience such a thing. It's not as scary as you might think. I thought it was worth a shot and I have experienced a myriad of internal and external miracles. So, to me, it has become undeniable. Because I gave everything for it. It has given me everything. So it would be self-defeating to keep it to myself. I really went to extremes though. I don't know what it would look like in your life to give everything you got in your heart, to discover if The Creator and Giver of Life is not only there, but wants to give you everything we were created for. But I'm telling you, if you were willing to test it? You wouldn't be dissatisfied. If you don't look past yourself and give it everything you've got for as long as it takes. Then it's really hard to see any other reason than you simply don't want to know God the way it was designed. So I really don't see why anyone would waste their time debating it if you could say "no God, because no evidence." And just be done with it.
So, I'm going to go way out on a limb here, and assume that you might want to know God? And you keep asking for specially tailored "evidence" because then it would be somewhat forced in front of your face. But y'all are never going to get that. That would be commanding God to do what we want. It doesn't work that way, sorry to burst your bubble. And if your looking for a person to give you something that's already in your soul. Or looking for a text that has the exact nature of God? Then you will be looking for an eternity. Everything we learn is supposed to lead you to an encounter\experience. Here, this is the ultimate answer that I know y'all won't like. Because I didn't like it either. Just take a deap breath, relax a smidgen, clear your mind, just breathe. Now just imagine it's just you and what gave us life. Have the realest conversation of your life with it. Let it all out. If you want to call it a mother f**ker call it a mother f**ker. Tell it you don't like it and you can't understand it. Just let is spill out like vomit. say something like I can't even believe I'm doing this, I don't believe you even exist. But,,, if,,, you really do exist,,,,,,,, I want to know you. What the heck are you "almighty God" going to do about it? Then just stay open and see where it goes. You literally have nothing to lose. And you might just gain the very thing you and I were created for. That almost sounds like heaven on Earth. Nothing will ever come close to that fulfilment. That's the highest you can ever go and it's promised to last forever. I get real with God all the time. I don't like the ways of this world, from tons of personal experience. But, we have not seen the ending. The plan ends with knowledge not temptation. It's perfect. That is, if you're willing to make the jump and let go. And you really do want to know? You wouldn't believe the sight you will gain from the changing of heart. You will never know if you never try. But, like I said. That's if you want to know The Creator and Giver of Life?
If you don't? Then just say "I don't want to know God " "no evidence, no God" and be done with it. There are a ton of other threads to annihilate.
But something tells me you won't be able to say that ; )
Remember I'm not doing any of this for me. It's not message, nor do I gain anything from what you believe or not. It's not like anyone's going to say they actually did this lol and then come back and give me an agree click hahahaha. This comes from Love in my heart from a traumatized suffering delusional lost retard that has found everything my heart longs for. Maybe if you wanted "It"? You could have "it" too? You most likely won't have to go to the extemes I did either... Hopefully *cynical chuckles*
Go ahead now, rip this to shreds. I know every line you red, your mind has a response ready to jump out of your head. Or you could just say "I don't want to know God" Brevity at it's finest. * Where did my peanut butter go* *oh I finished it**tears Welling up*
@Great hope: Then just say "I don't want to know God " "no evidence, no God" and be done with it.
I don't want to know God . No evidence, no God.
You seem to think there's a god-shaped hole in everybody's psyche, and that a person can't live a full life without an imaginary friend. You couldn't be further from the truth.
@Algebe"You seem to think there's a god-shaped hole in everybody's psyche, and that a person can't live a full life without an imaginary friend. You couldn't be further from the truth."
No I don't think everyone has this "hole" you keep talking about. I just gave a formula for God. That's how it works. If someone does want to know? That's how it's done. That's all.
@Great hope: Then just say "I don't want to know God " "no evidence, no God" and be done with it.
I don't want to know God . No evidence, no God."
Ok, thank you Algebe. It's been fun talking about holes with you.
@Great hope: It's been fun talking about holes with you.
LOL. In all fairness, I have to remind you that you were the first to mention holes.
According to Richard Dawkins, God Himself is wicked. Dawkins writes, "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the the most unpleasant character in all fiction....bully." 'The God Delusion', page 31. With that perspective on God, it's no wonder that Dawkins claims that teaching religion to your children is "child abuse". And if that kind of God really exits why would you worship Him?
Despite the rant from Dawkins about God being evil, he mentions in the book that evil doesn't really exist. Neither does good. If God doesn't exist, then ojective moral vaues don't exist.
@JimM: If God doesn't exist, then ojective moral vaues don't exist.
That sentence isn't quite right. It should read "God doesn't exist, AND objective moral values don't exist."
And for that we should be grateful. All of the supposed objective moral values that you attribute to your god are the result of subjective interpretations by the fallible and flawed human beings who wrote and interpreted your holy book. Those values include slavery, child genital mutilation, aggressive warfare, human and animal sacrifice, and many other charming behaviors.
True morality is the product of our subjective sense of empathy refined by our experiences in families and society.
Instead of arguing if there are or are not objective moral values; if you think their are, perhaps you could list them.
"According to Richard Dawkins, God Himself is wicked. Dawkins writes, "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the the most unpleasant character in all fiction"
The word fiction would seem to imply RD was being rhetorical, you seem to have misunderstood him here, but he's an atheist, and so is not talking literally.
"With that perspective on God, "
Sigh, he's talking about how the bible portrays it's deity, he doesn't believe an deity exists, so it would be impossible for him to have an opinion on the character of a non-existent deity. So one more time, he was being rhetorical to illustrate a point, a point I might add that you have entirely missed.
"Dawkins claims that teaching religion to your children is "child abuse"."
The two points are not directly linked, your attempt to link them is asinine, as it misses both separate points that RD was making.
"if that kind of God really exits why would you worship Him?"
Well RD wouldn't and neither would I, but you do, so your questions is bizarre. Since you believe it exists you should be questioning why you would worship it, unless you disbelieve the bible of course, but that hardly strengthens your apologetics.
"Despite the rant from Dawkins about God being evil,"
It wasn't a rant, he was making a rhetorical point, and was in fact being facetious, he has said so many times since. I'm pretty sure chippy humourless theists were not his target audience.
"he mentions in the book that evil doesn't really exist. Neither does good. If God doesn't exist, then ojective moral vaues don't exist."
Again you've clumsily tried to link two separate points that RD was making, and again you seem to have understood neither. If a deity exists and you can demonstrate no objective evidence for one, this still wouldn't evidence objective morality. A deity might be evil, it might be amoral, even if it were perfectly moral, your claim that humans are incapable of recognising and creating objective morality means there is no way to know whether such a deity was moral or not. It boils down to this...
1) Humans can recognise objective morality, in which case they don't need divine diktat.
2) Humans can't recognise objective morality in which case they would be unable to know whether divine was moral or not.
All morality is subjective, and this of course must necessarily include religious morality, and this would necessarily be true even if a deity existed, but especially so since no one can demonstrate any evidence any deity does exist, thus it is highly likely all religions are entirely man made.
"@ all the above comments
I know it's crazy. I know a lot of people potentially have got it wrong."
Including you of course, and the potential for your error is the same as theirs, as you demonstrate no objective evidence your deity is any more real than any of the others.
" I really was hoping y'all would be able to come up with something better than more evidence, religiousness, and prayer holes, for why no God final answer."
Why do you keep trying to misrepresent atheism in that way? as if it a claim or belief and as if it involves being closed minded in an absolute way? I've explained repeatedly that you are the one is setting a different standard for belief in one deity over the others, whereas atheism disbelieves them all, and sets the same standard without any bias for that disbelief, which is of course the very definition of open minded.
"Then it's really hard to see any other reason than you simply don't want to know God the way it was designed."
Again this is a dishonest misrepresentation of atheism, if a deity created me and everything else, and must therefore know I exist and wants me to know it exists, then it could demonstrably do so without any effort, and chooses to hide from me, and you apparently as you can demonstrate no objective reason for your belief at all, certainly none that differs from the claims all the adherents of other deities make.
" So I really don't see why anyone would waste their time debating it if you could say "no God, because no evidence.""
Again this is a lie, as atheism is not a claim there is no deity, it is a disbelief of the claim that one of the thousand of fictional deities humans have created is real, but for which no objective evidence can be demonstrated. I sense this frustrates you, but you need to critically examine why you find this simple request so frustrating, and ask why anyone believes anything that can't be properly evidenced.
"you keep asking for specially tailored "evidence""
Sigh, another lie, no one is asking for specially tailored anything, they're pointing out you can demonstrate no objective evidence for your belief, your claim is thus no different to any other unevidenced belief, in say mermaids, or a flat earth.
"If you don't? Then just say "I don't want to know God " "no evidence, no God" and be done with it. "
Your dishonesty here is starting to sound contrived in order to save face.
" has found everything my heart longs for. Maybe if you wanted "It"? You could have "it" too? "
Well it is axiomatic that anyone can believe anything, the desire to believe it doesn't of course validate, and that is equally axiomatic. In fact a strong desire to believe something suggests an obvious bias.
"Or you could just say "I don't want to know God"
This a begging the question fallacy, I urge you look it up and understand what it tells us about your claim. It is a fallacy because you are assuming the existence of god in your argument for a god. If it is real then demonstrate the best evidence you have for it.
Ok, it's really hard for me to understand athiesm. I'm not deliberately trying to mess with you. The op had a lot of questions. Because I'm coming from a position of God is the reality. And we've been given everything we need to gain such an encounter/experience. I don't believe that an atheist has really tried everything it takes to humble yourselves before God and do it God's way. That's why you'll never see your precious"evidence". You have to believe to see. It's not the other way around. So forgive me, I might have been trying to get you to that knowledge. I don't know if I have been called to do such things or not? I believe we are just called to shine the light and if anyone wants to inquire about it? God will lead them to the right person at the right time. God also said to not give your finest to the mobs for they will rip it to shreds for love is not in them. So it's not me that saves people, God does. It's there if you want it. I guess that's all I'll say. Also its primal instinct to fear the unknown. So anyone who says they don't fear the great unknown? Is lying.
"Ok, it's really hard for me to understand athiesm"
Well I always start with the common usage of a word and therefore its primary dictionary definition, so it is the absence or lack of belief in a deity or deities. It's also spelled atheism, not athiesm (sic).
"I'm coming from a position of God is the reality."
This your position has an epistemological burden of proof, and so far you have demonstrated no evidence for your position.
"I don't believe that an atheist has really tried everything it takes to humble yourselves before God and do it God's way."
You have no idea what an atheist has done until they tell you, that's axiomatic. However claims and beliefs are not remotely validated inn this way. How exactly does one humble oneself before what does not exist? You are doing what many theists do and assuming a suggestible state of mind, to satisfy an emotional need, as you have of course already admitted.
"That's why you'll never see your precious"evidence"."
That's a fallacious tautology, look for evidence, believe it is there, etc etc and quelle surprise it is there. This isn't an objective validation of your belief, it;s woowoo indoctrination. Have you tried viewing your beliefs critically, and objectively with an open mind? I can tell from your posts you have not. I do this for all claims and beliefs, and set the same standard for them all without bias, this then is the very definition of open minded.
"You have to believe to see. "
Si if you believe in unicorns you'll see them? That's asinine nonsense sorry.
"So forgive me, I might have been trying to get you to that knowledge."
You have no knowledge, just an unevidenced belief you're trying to convince yourself is valid despite it being completely unevidenced. The problem is you are trying to convince people it;s valid who have a far more objective standard for validating beliefs.
"Also its primal instinct to fear the unknown. So anyone who says they don't fear the great unknown? Is lying."
I don;t fear your beliefs or any deity, I simply don't believe they are true or real. I no more fear your deity than I do unicorns or mermaids.
@ ?All I'm saying is there is far too much undiscovered about our proverbial internal worlds to completely rule out the nature of our souls."
DAMN you are thick! No one has to rule out anything. The time to put your belief in something is when it has been demonstrated and not before. As I said in a previous post, your god is every bit as valid as the Flying Spaghetti monster, Blue Universe Creating Bunnies, or Turtles all the way down. There is just as much evidence for anything you can imagine as the God you are imagining. You do not explain the unknown with a greater case for the unknown. You do not get to 'ASSERT' a magical god being into existence. Demonstrate the existence of your god or simply admit that you are making the whole thing up.
@ "Either God is or God is not."
And the time to believe is when we have evidence. Either "Universe creating bunnies are or Universe creating bunnies are not." Either it's turtles all the way down or it is not turtles all the way down. YOU ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING. Where is your evidence?
@ " I have experienced a myriad of internal and external miracles. So, to me, it has become undeniable. "
Woopti-fricking-doo. Where are my miracles? Why is your God so fucking stupid that he does not grow back limbs. There is nothing at all in any of the miracles, by anyone, attributed to a God or Gods that has ever been substantiated. You think miracles are real. Prove it. Your assertion means absolutely nothing, nothing at all, without evidence. Show us the proof/
@ "So I really don't see why anyone would waste their time debating it if you could say "no God, because no evidence." And just be done with it."
And how in the hell do you come up with the idea that Your God exists, without any evidence at all. You are doing the exact same thing all the other people have done throughout history with regards to their gods. Using your bent confounded version of logic, all gods are real. They are all real for the same reason your God is real. People believed in them and so they are real. This is a frigging retarded way to go through life.
@ "Just take a deap breath, relax a smidgen, clear your mind, just breathe. Now just imagine it's just you and what gave us life. "
This is exactly your problem. "IMAGINE --- its just you and what gives us life." NO! STOP IMAGINING. USE YOUR FRIGGING BRAIN. Imagining anything does not make it real. STOP!
You can not imagine a God into existence. STOP!
@ "This comes from Love in my heart from a traumatized suffering delusional lost retard that has found everything my heart longs for. Maybe if you wanted "It"? You could have "it" too? "
MORE DELUSIONAL RAMBLINGS. Why in the hell would we give up what is real to join you in your delusion. We all agree, "you are a traumatized suffering delusional lost retard." That is a great note to end your efforts on. No one wants to join you in your delusion. Your God hypothesis has failed once again for lack of evidence. The time to believe something is after it has been proved and not before.
@Cognostic "No one wants to join you in your delusion."
I do believe athiesm is the minority. Most people at least try to believe lol. The afterlife is the most talked about and debated subject in all of history. God designed it in a way that it tests the deepest parts of what we want in our hearts. You must believe first. Then you'll be able to see. But if it's not in your heart to want to know God? Then Godspeed my friend. Death will give you exactly what you want. Separation from what gave you life. I'm just curious why anyone would choose that?
Also I really don't like saying this message. But, has an atheist ever looked into ascending the ranks of the dark arts? The opposition to God is very powerful as well. They can do all sorts of things that your heart desires. But it comes at a hefty price. But at least you would have the evidence that you so desire and you would get stuff that you want. They also have so many rules that I doubt they would even be able to claim athiesm. That's something that you can't come back from. And they aren't broadcasting this in the light, like we can do with God. But it does exist. I would at least consider giving everything that's in you to God first. And see if God doesn't show? Before you go down roads you can't come back from. Because God wants to set us free. The opposition does not. But either way. Death will be at our front door soon enough. So it's just common sense to be a little bit prepared. It's so simple lol.
Great hope, it is abundantly clear that you: are not listening, don’t know what atheism is, revel in being ‘holier than thou’, have no intention of debating, have a penchant for proselytizing, will not answer direct questions, are not very well read, live outside of reality, actively give away your own power...shall I go on? Likely others here could add to this list.
Your posts, at least to me, have become tedious and uninteresting. I do rather enjoy debate with those with whom I disagree. Any chance you will give up the preaching and engage in an actual discussion? If not, then this debate forum may not be an appropriate space for you.
It's a bit insulting to Abraham Lincoln, too.
Good catch, Algebe!
@CyberLN "revel in being ‘holier than thou’, "
Lol I just said I was a traumatized delusional lost retard. I'm not doing this because I'm smart. If I had any sense at all. I wouldn't care about any of you. I would have never have come on here wondering why some people wouldn't at least try every kind of experience we have been given? But I do care. And the great unknown is coming sooner than later. And there is this gigantic possibility that God is going to be there. It seriously can not be ruled out. Just because we can't observe the soul doesn't mean it's not there. Humans put more faith in theories lol. It always boils down to, if you do want to know God? What would you be willing to do? Because some won't leave the left brain for more than half a second to search the soul is baffling to me. That's where your personal evidence\experience will be. Why would someone not give it an honest shot? If you think it's not there? Then it should be incredibly easy to say" I don't want to know God and I'm not willing to do everything it takes for it, because no evidence no God." Then go annihilate other believers like Jim lol. Instead of continuing to ask me more questions, because deep down you do want to know??? But you want something more that what's already in your soul???
I know it sounds like nails on a chalkboard. Because it used to sound like that to me. But that's it. That's the only answer that will give you what you seek. But it seems like maybe your not willing to even try. Therefore, your wasted time of debating that will go in circles forever. Until you die. Then see God. And wonder what happened??? Then God will give you exactly what you chose and your afterlife will be spent replaying this post over and over in your head until the time of deletion in the lake of fire. Where you will finally get your beloved nothingness.
Ok now, rip this to shreds again. Or just have the courage to say what's really in your heart, I don't want to know God and I'm not willing to give everything for it. I'm moving on to another one of the billions of post on the interwebs. Great Hope doesn't know anything. Brevity at it's finest.
@ Great Hope
Very well, if it will stop your blathering:
"I don't want to know [your version of] god and I'm not willing to give [up my happy existence in the now where I enjoy my life without guilt or fear] (everything!) for it.
You have brought nothing to the debate except your delusions. So please, if you cant be sensible just fuck off and pray for your final days/armageddon/rapture whichever is your current taste in torturing people you have never even met.
@ Great hope
"Ok now, rip this to shreds again"
With pleasure because you are now shoveling bullshit by the ton. I am one of those you deny, who made a sincere effort and journey to find a god. And don't hand me the BS that somehow I did not do the right thing or that I was passed over for any reason. I did everything one has to do to see a revelation, and it did not come.
You have also become very insulting by insinuating that I have something lacking, a "hole in my soul". The only thing I have lacking is the fear that occupies you every moment.
Really, really think it through. You are a theist, yet live in a morbid fear in a dark and depressing world, while I am an atheist and live a life without fear and where each morning the sun shines on me.
What dark arts are you talking about? I know what you mean, the priest raping children.
What evidence do you have there is an afterlife?
What evidence do you have there is a God?
Unlike you, I live free of the guilt of sin and the fear of Hell.
@Old man shouts ... Ok thank you.
Yup, that's them. They have infiltrated every part of the world. I just came back from a healing hands conference. Did you know in America over 1 million children go missing every year? And if you Google what time period had the most slaves, the first inquiry will read "There Are More Slaves Today Than at Any Time in Human History" so while some people "get lucky" with their placements? Others literally have to endure hell on Earth. So life is too big for a message of no God because it let us go our own way and won't force itself on us or obey our commands of more evidence than a short life with a death and choice made. If anyone was willing to humble themselves and test their own soul they would be able to see. But that's not very convenient, so I guess athiesm has all the correct answers in perfect order covering everything. Giving hope to the world. Fixing it forever... Eventually. I don't live in fear of the guilt of sin nor hell. I have fallen in love with the possibilities and the experience has been the greatest journey of self discovery with miracle after miracle and blessing after blessing. Most of which bring me to tears daily. It's not fearful or as scary as y'all think. It's freedom and love and admiration. You know, like the stuff on the insides. The stuff that money can't buy and you can't have from reading about the evidence of it. It must be directly personally experienced. Like it was designed ; )
I'm glad you asked
From Homer Simpson “But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder.”
Thats your 'bet' in a nutshell GH....despite all your claims to peace and so on you live in terror.
@Old man shouts ...
You're too old to be watching cartoons lol.