Are there other options than God?
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I like that honest answer. That used to drive me nuts. Because I had so much care. And I thought i mattered so much that God would do exactly what I commanded Him to do at least once. But then I wouldn't have tested what my heart truely wanted.
Just imagine for a second if God did reveal Himself? What would you do lol? You wouldn't have much of a choice at that point and your heart might possibly grow to choose to hate God as all of our history shows. Even angels in His presence chose hate in their hearts creating suffering and separation by their own doing. God knows what works and what doesn't and what lasts. That's why the design of it all is to get you to see what's in your heart. Will you choose to Love God? Even though He won't do what our perspective commands? Or will you give up on your efforts to see what God See's?
Why do you use the gender pronoun "He"? What evidence do you have of its male genitalia, thought processes or anything else?
Hey Old man shouts ...
I've missed you *peanut butter Chuckles*
I've been wondering if anyone is ever going to address that gender thing? It's just another way to refence God when talking about it in context. That's all. I guess since everyone is all politically correct nowadays we can just refer to it as it lol.
@ Great Hope
Well the whole masculine dominance thing sucks...as it is so heavily reinforced in both major books. The gender bias is astonishing and yes, refer to whatever you think you believe in as an 'it'...much easier and without the baggage.
Even in the christian tradition it couldn't manage to impregnate a young girl without third party help, so hardly an archetypical virile male figure. So either a 'si' or 'it' would be much better for all of us.
An it is nothing t do with 'political correctness' as from the get go religion and the picture of its head god thing has been misogynistic, detrimental and plain fucking awful when it comes to the treatment of females. Lets get rid of it.
When I reached out to god, I wasn't trying to command god.
If God proved itself real, it doesn't mean I would worship it. Just I wouldn't be and atheist to it.
If you had an expectation of what God should do for you? Then that is a command. No wonder it didn't answer you.
I wasn't trying to command God, I was reaching out to god for any sign it was real.
Something to differentiate your claim from the thousands of similar yet contradictory claims. In short, why should we believe you over someone who say worships a tree?
Without that, what you are saying is special pleading, despite your statements to the contrary.
"In short, why should we believe you over someone who say worships a tree?"
I'm not saying anyone should believe me about anything. I'm saying everyone should consider their final decision before time is up because tomorrow is never promised. And I can't wrap my head around how anyone can be so sure that God doesn't exist? Maybe I'm boggled about an answer I'll never get? All i know is a tree is not offering much. But God The Creator and Giver of Life is offering everything. So I'm going to use every part of me to test and experience "it" *wink*wink*@Old man shouts ...* I'm pretty sure that if such a God exists, then it would be able to open me up to it's plan and design. It's got to at least be that powerful. But I guess the part I struggled with the most is that I need to see\grow. God does not. Maybe that's relatable? Never neglect that there has been every massive effort to deceive distract and confuse us from seeking God. Getting messed up in the mess instead of the message will mean your looking at the wrong tree. *Cynical chuckles*
has anyone seen the movie Usual Suspects with Kevin Spacey? This is a 3-minute clip from it and I think it's quite a thought-provoking principal. Even though it's just a movie film. It's something to consider.Watch "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist" on YouTube
"And I can't wrap my head around how anyone can be so sure that God doesn't exist? "
And I can't wrap my head around why anyone finds this specious straw man claim compelling. I donlt need to know there are no invisible unicorns tailing me to disbelieve it is true.
"God The Creator and Giver of Life is offering everything."
I could claim the same for invisible unicorns, has their existence suddenly become compelling to you?
Like all theists you are putting the cart before the horse, they and you do this because they know they can demonstrate no objective evidence for any deity. At least this has been my experience every time I read or listen to them.
I have yet to encounter a theist or apologist who opens with this is the best evidence I have for a deity. Which tells me something a priori about what they consider to be compelling evidence, if it needs to be preceded by a priori and unevidenced claims about important they think that belief is, as if that matters at all to me without proper evidence.
If you can demonstrate objective evidence for a deity then do so, if you can't then present what you consider to be the best evidence you have.
I don't care how dire you think it will be if I make, what you consider to be, the "wrong" choice. This is just subjective conjecture on your part, it has no bearing on whether a deity exists, and yet all theists waste my time with this nonsense. Sorry if that is blunt, but that is the problem, they view my lack of belief in THEIR deity as a massively important choice, but it is no more significant to me than their disbelief in Zeus. I hear theists talk of common ground, but they are the ones singling out one deity for special pleading, I treat them all the same, and I treat the claim they exist the same as I treat all claims. Thus my position is the very definition of open minded, as it lacks any bias for or against claims or beliefs.
Hi Sheldon, same arguments again? Interesting how some atheists desire and even demand proof of God, yet deny him at the same time when provided ample evidence. The atheistic position breeds more rational dissonance than so-called evidence against God.
How exactly is your position open-minded and lacking bias Sheldon?
1 From where do atheists even get the category of evil? Secondly, how do you break it's stronghold? To me as a Chrisitan theist, good and evil have a point of reference: God, who is the moral lawgiver and who offers us grace, forgiveness, and restoration through His Son, Jesus Christ.
But atheists cannot justify the existence and good and evil without smuggling in the moral argument for God. When you assert that there is such a thing as evil, you must assume there is such a thing as good. When you say there is such a thing as good, you must assume there is a moral law by which to distinguish between good and evil.
When you assume a moral law, you must posit a moral lawgiver because the questioner assumes the intrinsic worth of humanity in raising the question of evil, an assumption that is not warranted by naturalism. This moral lawgiver is precisely who atheists are trying to disprove. Without that moral lawgiver, humanity is an existent entity without an essential worth other than some self-referencing sleight of hand.
1 "Stealing From God" by Frank Turek, foreword by Ravi Zacharias, page ix
2 "Stealing From God" by Frank Turek, foreword by Ravi Zacharias, page x
If your position was truly without bias and open-minded, then you would be able to examine the evidence for yourself and ultimately realize the same conclusion.
Belief in God takes a measure of faith, and I'm first to admit that I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Everyone has a measure of faith just depends on where it is directed.
Ev ryo e h s a mea u re of fai h j st de en s on wh re it is dire t d.
Easy to demonstrate faith; just re-read the last full sentence, then the following sentence with letters missing.
Our abilities, thoughts and reading skills filled in the blank spaces so the words are not chaos, but ordered - so now we can read the full sentence. Small example, yet illustrates volumes for us.
"Hi Sheldon, same arguments again? "
Same claim AGAIN, and this empty dismissal doesn't address those arguments, or demonstrate any objective evidence for the claim.
IF you're going to respond to my posts then please address the content, and don't just go off on another sermon. I have demanded nothing, your claims require evidence, if you can demonstrate none then say so, if you can demonstrate objective evidence then do so.
I already explained quite carefully why my position is open minded, so why would you ask me in response to the post where I gave that explanation? You have asked a raft of questions and I'll happily answer them when you show me the same courtesy and address my post's content and questions.
"atheists cannot justify the existence and good and evil without smuggling in the moral argument for God. "
Sorry but that's too stupid to warrant a response.
"When you assert that there is such a thing as evil, you must assume there is such a thing as good. "
Indeed, these are concepts humans have created to explain types of behaviours and actions. They're in the dictionary which explain their meaning precisely, and no deity is needed for these concepts to be understood. Adding a fictional deity doesn't help explain these concepts in any way, as theism is itself a subjective belief, and theists make further subjective claims that they know what it wants, and that what it wants is objectively moral. They can evidence none of those claims, thus they are subjective.
I am happy to admit these concepts are subjective ideas, all human concepts are, including religious ones of course. They only become objective when a weight of objective evidence makes this a reasonable assertion.
"When you assume a moral law, you must posit a moral lawgiver"
Indeed, and I do, humans create human morality, that is axiomatic. There is no evidence for anything else. As you are proving here amply by offering no objective evidence for your belief a deity exists.
"This moral lawgiver is precisely who atheists are trying to disprove."
Not even close, do you spend your time trying to disprove Zeus, or unicorns? Or do you simply scoff when people like you are doing, insist their belief is valid but can demonstrate no objective evidence for it.
"Belief in God takes a measure of faith, "
I agree, but then so would any non-existent thing, I prefer to believe as many true things as possible, and it is a fact that humans have created fictional deities, and since I could use faith to believe in any of them it's clear faith is of no value in discerning what is true.
Now, you responded to my post, but ignored this..."If you can demonstrate objective evidence for a deity then do so, if you can't then present what you consider to be the best evidence you have."
"God The Creator and Giver of Life is offering everything."
Killing Egyptian babies
Deaths by bear
Turning people into salt
Hating ugly people
Instructions to execute children
@ Great Hope
@Old man shouts ...* I'm pretty sure that if such a God exists, then it would be able to open me up to it's plan and design. It's got to at least be that powerful. But I guess the part I struggled with the most is that I need to see\grow. God does not. Maybe that's relatable? Never neglect that there has been every massive effort to deceive distract and confuse us from seeking God. Getting messed up in the mess instead of the message will mean your looking at the wrong tree. *Cynical chuckles*
The first sentence is sensible...then you say "the part you struggle with" Does not make sense. You are attempting to define your god and claim to know its thought process. Nonsense, You are a very confused being...and now you are saying there is a nefarious plot to "deceive distract and confuse us from seeking 'god'? Bloody hell mate, paranoia on top of delusion. You honestly think that your omnipotent, omniscient, creator of all things can be hidden by some third party? Bonkers is what you are my son. Plain bonkers. Also you need to look up the definitions of Omniscient, Omnipotent...perhaps you will see the complete bollocks you write.
@Great Hope: Just imagine for a second if God did reveal Himself?
That's a very good question. Because it raises another important question. How would you know that whatever was revealed was actually god? What attributes would this revealed being need to have for you to accept it? I'm sure that Hollywood, Bollywood or Toho could create a very convincing supreme being.
How are you Great Hope?
Your concern about the eternal fate of non-theists is touching. However it reveals fears of your own.
I beleive you are sincerely worried about "getting us all home", whereever and whatever that means, and thats ok, why would I object to someone caring about me? There can never be enough of that happening.
But, I am an ex-christian. I have lost faith in the existence of gods and lost fear of the afterlife. I still read the bible and books on the history of religion, quite literally, everyday. Its a damned interesting subject (my pun intended). However the sum total of my life experience leaves me with nothing that could persuade me that any gods or afterlife exists.
The Christian afterlife is only a recent concept, less than 2,000 years old and has its start in the writings of a non-christian Hellenized Jew, who was melding Hebrew and Greek ideas on the subject.
There is just us. We have one life. Only one. If we are born in the right time and place we can consider ourselves extremely lucky, because there is no plan, no placement. It is all random to a point, which is not all that terrifying if you consider nothing much else in this universe is in our control either.
But, ok, if, as you ask, I am wrong, what am I to do?
Despair? That would be a horribly pointless way to waste the one allocated life.
Pretend? You know that wont, and is not suppose to, work.
If your Master Placer exists, why worry or fear about the afterlife of others? Even if you accept the idea of freewill, the outcome may already be omnipotently decided..you cant deny this because you have already admitted your god has his own way of doing things that you and I couldnt understand.
I am content to live this life as I am doing right now, curious, exploring, challenging and I have no sense of sin or fear of death because I have no fear of an afterlife.
So is luck like a mystical deity?
It is not at all surprising that you would suggest an intangible concept like 'luck' might be like a mystical deity. People have been doing the same thing for tens of thousands of years.
It does illustrate the difference between a theist and an atheist view of the world.
The theists' world is populated with gods, spirits, demons and the supernatural in general.
My particular world view, shared I believe with most atheists, is populated with the natural world and nothing more.
"Luck" is an intangible concept with many names 'fate', 'fortune', 'destiny', even 'doom'. It has no physical qualities. People talk about it as if it were an object, a possession, "I might get lucky.", but no-one is considered lucky until something good has happened to them first. The same with the idea of "unlucky". Even if someone were to "get lucky" at some point in time, they well might never be "lucky" again in the course of their entire life.
Superstitious people attach anthropomorphic qualities to concepts like "Luck" and we get "Lady Luck" or Tyche, the blind goddess of Fortune, in order to make appeals to abstract powers for good outcomes for themselves. A bit like theists really.
Nonetheless Luck is not a mystical deity. Luck is the random outcome of any number of possibilites involving any number of processes and events which might or might not be mathematically predictable. I am here now, because a single sperm beat several million other single sperms in the race inside my mother's uterus to fertilise a specific egg, which had been ovulated prior to that fertilising sperm's release. Had it been another sperm, or any other egg, I might not have gained the conciousness I now enjoy. I might never have existed. I am lucky, at least I beleive I am.
It has nothing to do with "luck" and more to do with probablilties. It has nothing to do with mythical deities.
GH "So is luck like a mystical deity?"
No, luck is a just our perception of events, in that sense only, luck is real. I have never seen any evidence demonstrated by anyone that any deity is real, mystical or otherwise. It's also an unequivocal fact that humans create fictional deities, so demonstrate evidence for one that differs from all those others, otherwise I will continue to disbelieve it exists, and what is more I will view my disbelief as insignificant, like disbelieving mermaids or unicorns or Apollo are real. Thus your attempts lecture me that this is an important decision will simply carry no weight.
@ Great Hope "(btw God said it would be that way)." I would love to hear how you think you know what God said. Unless you have a severe mental problem, you can have no idea at all whether or not there is a god or what that imaginary thing said.. Did he say it in English?
@ "Are there other options than God?"
As long as we are in the world of fantasy and just making up creator beings, anything and everything we imagine has the exact same capabilities as your god. (And, by the way, just as much evidence.) Some possibilities:
1. The Flying Spaghetti Monster
3. Blue universe creating bunny rabbits.
4. The all powerful creator hamster.
5. A magic green orb.
6. Turtles; All the way down.
7. The universe is a living being/
8. Everything is a holographic illusion.
@ "So why not use everything we've been given to seek God?"
THAT IS THE REASON ATHEISTS EXIST. ATHEISTS are the people who have used everything they have been given to seek God. Finding nothing at all, THEY BECOME ATHEISTS. (FAITH is not a path to truth.)
@ "If God exists, then by default there is a plan/"
If God has a plan, THEN HE MADE ME AN ATHEIST. Why in the fuck are you messing with GOD'S PLAN? Why don't you just stay home and pray. Oh Wait! You can't pray because God has a plan. Do you really think he is going to interrupt his plan to respond to your prayer? That would be frigging stupid wouldn't it.
@ "God or no God? Only one has severe incorruptible consequences. "
Pascal's Wager in disguise. BULLSHIT. So we are to believe in your god for fear of consequences. YOUR GOD IS AN ASS/ The fact that you even think this way demonstrates you are not a Christian. How stupid is your god? Do you really think he does not know the only reason you are professing belief is because you are afraid of consequences. Do you really think that is enough. It's not even a good start. Your thinking gives away your reason for belief. And your reason for belief, according to your own Bible . is woefully lacking.
@ "These are some serious thoughts that we all face. "
NO! This is the random generation of bullshit, unsubstantiated claims, flights of imagination, and assertion without fact. You have presented nothing that even resembles a reasonable argument for the existence of your god. Your thought process is so incredibly disjointed as to border on moronic. Do you think you could start with a single idea, just one, and stay focused long enough to discuss that?
@ "Btw if you believe "by faith" that there is no God? hen you had better not be wrong lol."
Another allusion to Pascal's Wager. You really have an issue with Belief Based on Fear. Do you not understand that this is a horrible reason to believe in a God. You are to hate your own family members and love God more than any of them. If you don't know that you need to re-read your bible.
Faith is not required to see that the religions of the world have not met their burden of proof. The default position is to not believe something until it has been demonstrated to be true. Can you demonstrate your God to be true beyond simply laying out threats? Faith is belief without evidence or reason. No one needs faith to disbelieve Theist claims. The claims are demonstrably fallacious.
So I'm taking a shot in the dark here and guessing your final answer is no God? Because lack of evidence? I hope it serves you well.
No one has to go all the way to "No God." You can stop at "No Evidence/" Given "No Evidence" what in the hell are you talking about? I have no evidence for universe creating bunnies so your god and universe creating bunnies are the same thing. Atheism is not the position that "God or Gods do not exist." Now, if you define your god or make assertions about your god, I can evaluate those and then tell you if that god exists or not.
For example. If your god is both JUST and MERCIFUL, your god does not exist. Mercy is the suspension of justice by definition. Either God is Just or Merciful but not both.
If you assert your god exists beyond time and space, then your god does not exist. Existence is temporal. You must exist someplace and at some time. A god beyond time and space does not have the space to exist nor the time to have the thought; "I think I will make something." Without time there is no beginning or end to anything. A god beyond time and space would not even know of existence. It can not see itself as there is no time to do so. There is no movement of any kind without time. No thinking, no moving. and no where to be. This God can not logically exist.
So what kind of a god are you talking about? It may very well be that your god is existent. I tend to doubt it as we have hundreds of thousands of failed gods in the world and your god would be just one more. So what makes your version of God more special than all the other versions of god?
If you were to look up at the stars tonight and tell me that there are an even number of stars. I would tell you that I do not believe you. I have not asserted that the number is odd. I am only saying that I do not believe you. You have not supported your position. You have not counted the stars. Similarly, if you tell me your god exists, what reason do I have for believing you? I am not saying a god does not exist. At the same time, I see no god editing. Where is this God you speak of?
No one has to say "No god exists" to be an atheist. It may be perfectly clear however, that your God does not exist. So what have you got?
" guessing your final answer is no God? Because lack of evidence? I hope it serves you well."
You think objective evidence doesn't serve you well? So you scoff at medical knowledge, and walk everywhere, don;t have a phone or a PC of any sort, had a friend post this for you as you don't use electricity or the internet etc etc...
Sigh, another argument from ignorance fallacy, wow we haven't one of those for.... 0.000000000000001 seconds.
Not having a counter argument does not rationally validate any claim or belief.
This fallacy is often used to reverse the burden of proof, which brings us to the same question I always ask, and that goes unsurprisingly unanswered. **What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity is real.
Anyway you'll never answer this, no apologists ever do, and for a fairly obvious reason, and of course like all the other drive by apologists, will be gone soon, so all the best.
A supernatural being simply does not count as an explanation. If something has any tangible effect, it is natural.
The universe is defined by the laws of nature, and is only random in the sense that the laws could have been something else. But how is that different from attributing the universe to a god?
Making the universe mean more than the sum of its parts requires invoking a supernatural entity. It is magical thinking.
There are 4,000+ gods. You haven't even begun to look at all the options. It's called discrimination. If you believe in one god and not 3,999+ others then you discriminate against gods. I treat them all equally.
It's simple, I didn't go to a god I learned about. I went to the source of life and creation. "It" led me to the truth. Give it a shot if you like.
Your claim is no different from any of the other theists claiming their deity is real? I know that what I believe to be true is more likely to be validated by rational objective critical thinking than grandiose unevidenced claims that you have discovered some esoteric knowledge. Give it a shot if you like.
I have fun testing it. God is of spirit so that's what I go with. And from what I've experienced. The possibility cannot be ruled out. One day soon we will all find out. That's enough for me. But, deep down I hope I'm wrong. I've been wrong my whole life. So I'll be used to it. But then again, would I even be able to be aware that was wrong about God? Lol this life is so silly *inserting thumb into another jar of peanut butter*
"God is of spirit"
No it's not - Hitchens's razor applied.
"from what I've experienced."
Subjective, like sailors claiming they were rescued by mermaids.
"The possibility cannot be ruled out."
Nor can any experience, like sailors claiming they were rescued by mermaids, it can however be disbelieved.
"One day soon we will all find out."
No we won't - Hitchens's razor applied.
"That's enough for me."
Gullible, your choice.
"But, deep down I hope I'm wrong. I've been wrong my whole life. "
Well hope springs eternal, until you understand the difference between subjective unevidenced superstition, and objective evidence, you won't understand the epistemological difference between being right and being wrong.
"would I even be able to be aware that was wrong about God?"
Well there you go, you don''t pretend to know what constitutes proper evidence for the belief.