Atheist Fundraiser From A Theist?

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CallOut's picture
haha, so dramatic.

haha, so dramatic.

Tin-Man's picture
*saunters back into dugout*..

*saunters back into dugout*.... *openly adjusts/scratches crotch while spitting sunflower seed shells into Cog's hair*.... *Yyyyaaaaaaawn*..... Hey, how long before the 7th Inning stretch? I'm gonna need some time to put on the mascot costume to entertain the crowd. Speaking of mascots, whose "brilliant" idea was it to name the team "The Atheist Mofos"???

Cognostic's picture
@ The first point of a claim

@ The first point of a claim is the item of the claim must first exist, which requires evidence. From there we need no other evidence to make other claims about this item. Is that correct?

It must exist in some way. An idea can be a claim and not all ideas exist. At the same time we must be clear that it is only an idea we are discussing. You do this when you say "What if."

"Unicorns exist," is different than, "What if unicorns exist. " The first one is a truth claim and the second only a fantasy. The truth claim requires evidence. The fantasy is just fantasy. If we are going to merge fantasy with reality we need to bring the fantasy into reality. Man imagined he could fly before he developed the means of flight.

@ From there we need no other evidence to make other claims about this item. Is that correct?

This makes no sense to me. A submarine exists. I can define it and tell you its size and all its components. Then I can claim that if you kill one and cut it up you can survive for a year off the meat it provides. The claim makes no sense at all. Of course you need evidence for claims. I don't see why you think you do not need evidence to support a claim or how you think you are creating paradoxes without evidence for claims.

It is possible to prove something indisputably with no other evidence aside from that thing existing. Exists)
First law of logic A is A. (At the same time you would be trying to prove existence without an observer if there is no other evidence.) How do you get to no other evidence without an observer. If a thing exists in itself with no other evidence, how do we know it exists? How would it knew it existed? In relation to what?

It's an atheist forum and we spend a lot of time talking about God or gods. It's just a running example. Ignore it. Talk about PLICKETS instead. They exist indisputably without ever being observed and are completely self contained. Now what do you know about them? (Only one FACT. They exist. I made the assertion and now I have the burden of proof. That which is asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence. What reason you you have to believe me?)

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@Cog

@Cog

And now I am totally confused, not content with batting in all nine innings and winning 19 to zero Cog sprints to the next stadium, changes uniforms, passes to himself and TOUCHDOWN!

Cognostic's picture
I know what you mean. That

I know what you mean. That's why when I saw the other post, I broke it down into sections. These guys get so many things going on at the same time it is difficult to keep track. I think it is a good idea to take these posts that mane numerous claims and just break them down to one issue at a time. These theists often come into the chat with mental diarrhea and just let it rip. If one of us breaks it into relevant parts everyone can stay focused on one issue at a time.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@Cog

@Cog
Iwas also lauding your prowess! *Watches cheerleaders with an appreciative eye for gymnastic ability* * wipes drool from TM's chin*

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Callout

@ Callout
Not being rude to your earnest enquiries, but Cog is certainly speaking as I would regarding your earnestness. Remeber we see many ill formed arguments and assertions come through these forums. You seem to be more polite than most, and more open minded than many, so while we wait for Cog to finish his innings/offensive line/quarter...we are having some fun.

Cognostic's picture
Nine innings of football

Nine innings of football could take a while. Unless of course I get a hole in one and catch the golden snich.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@Cog

@Cog

Spoiler Alert! ...now I have to steal more ideas from TM......

Cognostic's picture
Just twist his nose to the

Just twist his nose to the right and yank on his finger. Something is bound to happen.

CallOut's picture
Let me take a step back.

Let me take a step back.

I’m sure you guys are leaning in your rockers, puffing those cigars, congratulating yourselves on another job well done. However I just see this as a disconnect thus far, and we haven’t gotten anywhere. You might think you struck me out, and consider that a good thing, but I consider us both on the same team. Granted we might have differences, but if either of us strikes out, it is bad for both of us. So we need to work together.

I'll start by answering the request to break down my claims to the most simple concepts. Help me understand if this concept can or can’t be true and why.

Claim #1: To say “If god existed…” does not pose an improper presupposition.

To the contrary, I believe such a statement presupposes god doesn’t exist just as much as it presupposes that god does exist. If I were to say “because god exists…” then I would be improperly presupposing something that merits proof.

With that said, I have not mentioned or implied anywhere in this thread that god does indeed exist. If I have, please enlighten me with a specific example and maybe I can clear it up.

Any objections?

David Killens's picture
CallOut, I do not perceive it

CallOut, I do not perceive it as an victory celebration but just idle chat. And I do agree that one goal is to move us closer in our understandings.

OK, let's get down to brass tacks. In your opinion, does a "god" exist? Please provide a definition for that entity if you believe it exists. Very early in our conversation I requested that you do so. Your not responding has led to this confusing situation. We need clarity, and you must provide it.

Yes or no. If yes, please explain. If no, please explain.

Cognostic's picture
@ "If god existed..."

@ "If god existed..." Presupposes god does not exist? I want to change that just a little. It does not presuppose God does not exist. I think if you begin from a point of "We do not know, the zero point," you can begin with "Well let's imagine God does exist." Equally, beginning at the zero point or the place where we do not know, we can say "Lets imagine a God does not exist." If this sounds like the same thing you said, then we are in agreement.

Tin-Man's picture
@CallOut

@CallOut

Re: "I’m sure you guys are leaning in your rockers, puffing those cigars, congratulating yourselves on another job well done."

Nope. While I DO have a rocker, I don't smoke. Never have. *chuckle* And we aren't doing any type of "victory celebration", because there was really no challenge over which to claim a victory. Honestly, we are just bored, and these are the things that transpire when a group of "questionably intelligent" individuals gets bored.

Re: "Claim #1: To say “If god existed…” does not pose an improper presupposition."

Personally, I happen to enjoy discussions starting with, "If god existed..." From my experience on this site, however, I have yet to see any theists who like where that discussion leads. *chuckle*

All in all, speaking for myself, I was expecting you to be more "proactive" in asking us specific questions about our views on how each of us came to our individual conclusions about religion. So far, though, you seem to be trying to lump us all into a "single-minded" group. As I have told somebody else before in another thread, it would be easier (and more entertaining) for you to try herding several dozen kittens in a field covered with butterflies. To put it lightly, we (atheists), in general, do not conform very well. Just a little friendly FYI.... *grin*

CallOut's picture
Very interesting *stroking my

Very interesting *stroking my imaginary beard*. At least you can clarify that atheists don't conform very well. I assume this applies to any argument, not just a theistic one? Learned something new.

I did want to know your stories, but it was to ultimately lead somewhere. Not that I would use anyone's story against themselves, only that it is a good ice breaker and I'm genuinely interested.

I would say my overall goal is to test my own thinking. I've heard Atheists say they don't believe in a god because they follow logic. In my studies logic encompasses both stances (except for silly claims like god told me to drive my car into a pole), so it is interesting that one side can imply a monopoly on logic.

Technically I claim to believe in a god because I follow logic, whereas you don't believe in god because you follow logic. Obviously both of us can't be correct, or can we?

At the very least I want to prove a theistic view is not always bigotry.

Tin-Man's picture
@CallOut

@CallOut

Aaah. NOW it is getting a bit more interesting. *grin*

Re: "Not that I would use anyone's story against themselves..."

No worries there, as far as I am concerned. (Speaking for myself, at least.) If I am telling you the truth about myself on a public forum under the cover of an anonymous profile (or even under my true identity, for that matter), I find it difficult to see how that could be used against me. And if there IS something about me that COULD possibly be used against me somehow, then I would be a complete idiot to post it. lol

Re: "I would say my overall goal is to test my own thinking."

Excellent! That puts you at least one step ahead of most other theists who visit us.

Re: "I've heard Atheists say they don't believe in a god because they follow logic."

That is very true.... for SOME. Again, you are slipping into that false belief that all atheists think alike. Each of us has our own unique reason(s) for what led us down our paths. And if any two atheists share the exact same reason, it is pretty much just coincidence. Many on here have never known religion, while many more of us here had to claw and fight to escape it. Sure, logic may play some part in it for many/most, but beyond that the reasons vary widely.

Nyarlathotep's picture
CallOut In my studies logic

CallOut In my studies logic encompasses both stances (except for silly claims like god told me to drive my car into a pole)...

What is so silly about that kind of claim? The mythology (the bible) is stuffed with stories like that. If you are going to reject stories like that, you should probably reject any personal experience claims. Which I'm guessing won't leave you much to work with.

David Killens's picture
@ CallOut

@ CallOut

"At the very least I want to prove a theistic view is not always bigotry."

You can not prove anything while you do not take a position. Once again, I ask you ...

In your opinion, does a "god" exist? Please provide a definition for that entity if you believe it exists.

Yes or no. If yes, please explain. If no, please explain.

David Killens's picture
A CallOut

A CallOut

"I would say my overall goal is to test my own thinking. I've heard Atheists say they don't believe in a god because they follow logic. In my studies logic encompasses both stances (except for silly claims like god told me to drive my car into a pole), so it is interesting that one side can imply a monopoly on logic."

Once again, you must be reminded that atheism is a lack of a belief in a god,not (as you stated) "Atheists say they don't believe in a god".

I will attempt to clarify.

Let us imagine we were walking down the street and discovered a large jar full of pennies. Before it was examined and any pennies counted, you state "I believe there is an odd number of pennies in that jar". I do know if the count is odd or even, I will suspend any belief until it has been proven that there is either an odd or even number of pennies in that jar. Until the pennies are counted (proven) I will suspend belief until proven otherwise.

And that is why the definition of an atheist is a lack of belief in a god.

"In my studies logic encompasses both stances"

I disagree. There is a god, or there is not a god, there is no middle ground. There is truth, or not truth, this is a purely binary situation. One cannot waffle between each position.

You define yourself as a theist, do you believe in a god?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Callout

@ Callout

"At the very least I want to prove a theistic view is not always bigotry.

That did make me choke on me bran muffin....The fact is every single "holy" book or text that has theism as its raison d'etre espouses and lays out the rules for bigotry as a way of life.

Also Tin Man has it bang to rights of those of us engaging with you, apart from the one "lack of belief in a god or gods" we are as diverse a bunch of people politically, socially and economically, as well as dwelling on different continents.

There is no "Atheist World View" no homogeneity except in the lack of belief in a god or gods.

I neither smoke nor possess a rocker, I do have a "Battlebull" computer chair, a luxury I know, but one that conforms to my aged, damaged back...

Cognostic's picture
@ "In my studies logic

@ "In my studies logic encompasses both stances."
This is worth looking into., It is not the general view of the Atheist. You have people like William Lane Craig and his horrible apologetics stolen from philosophers as old as Jesus himself. I would love to hear some logic come out of a theist. You have the extremely lame attempt of Bart Eherman in his most recent book. A huge fail, full of old worn out apologetics. I have seen no rational argument from the theist side of the fence that can stand against critical inquiry. The reason Atheists exist is becuase of the very very poor nature of theist claims. "They have not met their burden of proof."

@ "so it is interesting that one side can imply a monopoly on logic. "

I don't think this is the case at all. If you have some case for the existence of God that is not based on faulty logic, silly fallacies, false assertions, or appeal to emotion, we would genuinly love to hear it.
So far, NO ONE, NOT A SINGLE SOUL, has come up with such a case for the existence of God or gods. We would all seriously love to hear what you have....

msezell's picture
This is all very fascinating.

This is all very fascinating. I am a member of several Atheist sites and this is the first forum I've read that everyone is acting like adults. I must admit that from my experiences most theists are very rude and crude when they are reacting with atheists. So CallOut you are to be commended. But I must agree with the others, you are lacking in the area of explaining yourself with evidence and your reason for starting this topic is confusing. You say this is a learning tool for you (paraphrasing) but what I'm getting is your trying to convince people on this forum of your definition of scientific methods. Hopefully you will become more defined and detailed in what you are trying to do.

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Tin-Man's picture
Yo, Mike! Great to have you

Yo, Mike! Great to have you here! Excellent post. Yes, Mr. CallOut is definitely one of the better theists we have had visit our little slice of heaven (*snicker*) here on the AR. Just wish I knew where he disappeared to all of a sudden. *chuckle* The discussion was just getting interesting, and he seems to have vanished. Oh, well.... *shrugging shoulders*... We get that a lot of that here.

Anyway, I see from your profile you are no stranger to the site, so welcome back. Hope to see you around more.

msezell's picture
Thanks! Very friendly of you.

Thanks! Very friendly of you. I do have problems with the math questions.

Tin-Man's picture
@Mike Re: "I do have

@Mike Re: "I do have problems with the math questions."

Phew! Glad to know I'm not the only one! lol To make matters worse, I am missing two toes on one foot.

Cognostic's picture
Wouldn't it be nice if the

Wouldn't it be nice if the theists would ask questions because they were concerned. The last couple of posts I respond to were a shotgun approach full of asserted but undefined and unsupported apologetics one after the other.

Tin-Man's picture
@Cog Re: "Wouldn't it be

@Cog Re: "Wouldn't it be nice if the theists would ask questions because they were concerned."

Actually, it would be nice if they would ask questions and be genuinely interested in learning something new. *chuckle*

msezell's picture
I use to work with sheet

I use to work with sheet metal, maybe I could help with the toes.

Tin-Man's picture
@Mike Re: "I use to work

@Mike Re: "I use to work with sheet metal, maybe I could help with the toes."

LMAO.... Yep, you will fit in quite nicely here!... LOL... Really hope you hang around awhile!....

Hey, Cog, Old Man, Arakish! We may have another candidate for group!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM
Fitting you new toes doesn't qualify anyone, we have all replaced your missing body parts at some time...especially that missing the vault over the razor wire incident. That Cog actually replaced that thing, wearing a pigs nose and peering through a jewellers loupe has always brought nightmares....I hear that Trump got your old one....

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