I would like to have a basic conversation about atheism. I don't know much about it, I don't know any atheist who are willing to discuss it and my Christian friends are no help at all.
I understand that atheists believe that there is no creator and there was no creation. So everything we know about came to exist in some other manner. My first question is: What is the basic explanation for how everything came to be?
Or if a specific example is helpful, then I'll throw this out.
If there was no creation, then the first chicken did not come out of an egg. And I have two questions about that:
1. How did the first chickens come to be?
2. Why, and how, did chickens start laying eggs?
There is probably a better example, but I have to start somewhere.
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Hi Vince Grabo, welcome to the forum.
I will start by admitting that I don't know everything, but I will not jump to conclusion and say god did it.
Atheism doesn’t necessarily say there was no creator and no creation. At its most basic, it represents a lack of belief in the existence of gods.
Why assume there was a creator and an act of creation? Couldn’t nature be eternal?
Eggs existed before chickens. Chickens came about through speciation, via evolution by natural selection. You should look into scientific research which shows how species such as the chicken and features such as the egg arose.
edit: typo
You are saying that something evolved into a fertilized egg.
How would evolution begin to explain that?
That is not how evolution works.
There was not some egg that just came out of nowhere and the first chicken (as we know it) popped out.
Read up on evolution. Also read up on mitosis versus meiosis for cellular division.
A very quick and rough (off the top of my head) run down:
Nearly all living things are made up of cells, (certainly all the large more complex living things,) Cells all by themselves reproduce using mitosis cellular division.
Then came along RNA and DNA which allowed the passing on of information from one cell to another as they split. This also paved the way for meiosis as well, which takes strong advantage of the information being passed on via dna. And the reproductive cycle began for living cellular groupings that take advantage of it.
Neither the chicken or the egg ever "came first," What came first is a different prehistoric bird that was similar to it that the chicken branched off from. And well before that was: the transitionary period where instead of hosting all of the vulnerable part of the reproductive cycle, it slowly created a part where some of the stages of growth of new step in the reproductive cycle occurred outside of the host body enhanced by a protective shell.
Once you understand the bigger picture of how evolution really works, you realize there never was a "chicken or the egg first" problem. It makes for a good quote to describe other problems, but again, there was never a "chicken or egg" problem when talking about actual chickens.
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Your story begins with "there were living cells". Backup up a little.
How did the first living cell come into existence? Start there. I don't mean a perfect, exhaustive explanation; just a simple general idea.
Origins of life. Always a fun conversation.
First I am no expert and I hope others chime in and correct me as needed.
But here goes:
What is a cell (biology)? A google search, first result brings up:
"the smallest structural and functional unit of an organism, typically microscopic and consisting of cytoplasm and a nucleus enclosed in a membrane. Microscopic organisms typically consist of a single cell, which is either eukaryotic or prokaryotic."
A cell is just another step in evolution. There was cell like microscopic organisms before there were cells, they were simpler, and did not have all the functions cells have today, (as defined,) Everything, including life is in a constant stage of transition. A cell is just a more complex interaction of exotic atoms, compounds etc that mutually benefit from each other. A cell is just a more complex form of what came before it. Given near infinite chances by pure blind luck certain elements and compounds and mixtures meet up in just the right way to allow a more stable long lasting complexity, a complexity that can, for at least a while self perpetuate that complexity. That complexity continues to get more complex until an even more stable form of complexity arises, the cell. And cells themselves continue to evolve, For instance the single cell that makes up a human female's egg, is many orders of magnitude more complex than Mycoplasma mycoides, which is also a cell.
Also know there was a first cell, but that cell probably failed and became disorganized complexity an instant after it was created. This probably occurred trillions upon trillions of times before a "cell" lasted more than a few minutes. Trillions upon trillions of times more before the "cell" was able to survive long enough to reproduce. And this probably also happened many of times from different sources. All life does not originate back to a single "mother" cell. Instead cells arose from their less stable brethren slowly, over great periods of time, and may have developed concurrently in many different places on the planet, anywhere where the conditions were right to allow the formation of the first cells from their less complex similar but not complete "pre-cells."
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To head off your next possible question, is well what formed the things similar to cells but not as complex? Well, increasingly less complex things, things that require less elements, compounds, mixtures etc to be a self sustaining complexity.
Remember that study in science shows that while cells are the building blocks of life, complex elements, compounds and mixtures are the building blocks of cells. The building block of compounds and mixtures are the base elements, of which atoms are the building block. And the building blocks of atoms (how they differentiate and gain in complexity) are the electrons spinning around the nucleus of protons and neutrons.
What powers electrons to an excited state instead of dormant? Gravity. Remember our sun, our solar system, our galaxy and our universe is powered by gravity.
What is gravity? Mass attracts mass. Or in other words, differences of mass/stuff attracts and causes other differences (complexity!)
Where did the differences in mass come from? The big bang.
What caused the big bang? Who knows, that is where human knowledge stops. We lack the tools to observe before the big bang as the big bang created everything we use for tools of observation.
Throwing in my guess of what caused the big bang? (or more specifically what caused something instead of nothing?) Infinite time and space allowed for the possibility of something different from pure simple endless nothing. Instead of a perfect nothing in every direction, there was one anomaly. Instead of a perfect sheet of protons and neutrons and everything else (like dark matter) being perfectly spaced from each other in a completely dormant phase, a hole opened up, there was a spot where one dormant base hydrogen atom with a frozen in-active electron was not perfectly spaced from the rest, which caused a runaway chain reaction that led to the big bang.
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Hi Vince:
In your OP, you asserted that you wanted to know about Atheism. Now you are on about Evolution and Biogenisis or Abiogenisis. This is an atheist forum and not a Biology forum. The fact that a bunch of atheists have no idea at all how the first cells came into existence has nothing to do with atheism or the fact that cells obviously did come into existence at some point. Guess what.... we don't know and NEITHER DO YOU. If you think your God done it - PROVE IT. We have all sorts of evidence for abiogenisis, "Life from non-life." We have even more evidence for "EVOLUTION." In fact evolution is considered FACT by any biologist worth his degree in the world today. All biological information for the pasty 160 years has fit neatly into the evolutionary model. If you do not think so, go argue with a biologist.
On a final note... I would like to point out that you are presenting a "Straw Man Argument." If biology, all of biology, were wrong. If it was all proved wrong tomorrow. It says nothing at all about atheism,. God does not win by default. Just because evolution is completely wrong, does not mean God done it. You still have all your work cut out for you. "No one can explain it, therefore God" is called "An argument from ignorance." The god idea does not magically move forward and take the place of evolution when or if evolution is proved wrong. YOU MUST PROVE YOUR GOD ASSERTION.
So I have to prove something but you don't. You're just right. Good to be you.
If you make the claim that god exists, then yes, you have to prove it if you want to be taken serious.
Absolutely the burden of proof lies on you.
Understand, if people in normal conversation about any claim, start making it so that the person not making the claim has to prove why the claim is not real everything falls apart really fast.
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An old favorite of mine to explain this:
You owe me 1 million dollars. Prove to me you do not.
Think about it for a bit, how would you prove it?
Think on it for a bit? What did you come up with? How would you prove you do not owe me 1 million dollars?
Stuck? Does it seem crazy that you cannot disprove that you owe me 1 million dollars?
Do you intend now to pay me 1 million dollars?
Of course not, you KNOW you do not owe me 1 million dollars, but you can not prove that you do not owe me 1 million dollars. Where does the burden of proof lie? Well duh, it would lie with me. I would have to prove you owe me 1 million dollars if I wanted to make that claim in front of others to help me enforce you paying me 1 million dollars.
All this applies for god concepts. The burden of proof lies on the people that claim god. Except surprise surprise, nobody has ever been able to prove god. Worse still, the evidence that humans made up the various gods is actually quite overwhelming.
If you said: "hey you just claimed that humans made up the god idea. I want proof!"
Guess what, you are right! The burden of proof is on me to prove that humans made up the god idea.
Fortunately for me, there is all kinds of evidence that humans made up the god ideas, profound powerful undeniable evidence.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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I haven't made any attempt to prove that God exists. I have simply asked you and others to explain how it's possible that we got where we are now with a creation.
All I get is: "I have lots of proof" "You should read up" Along with some insults. And a long example of how you can't prove a negative.
Why can't you or anyone else here just explain your understanding of things.
Do you understand it or do you just believe there is great proof?
@Vince Grabo
"Where we are now with a creation" Huh? Is that "a" a typo? Can I rephrase your question to something more precise and answer that?
How about:
"How did the universe come to be?"
Well we know the big bang was likely the start of this known universe, (quite a lot of observation and evidence backs the big bang theory up) before the big bang, we don't know, we can only guess at it. And it is very possible we, (the human race,) may never know for sure.
What we do know?
Well for one:
That the various god ideas are extremely unlikely to be the cause of the big bang or the creation of the universe. Why? Because the various god ideas obviously stem from human imagination due to a plethora of powerful evidence that this is the case, and as a result of stemming from human imaginations 1000's of years ago, (for most religions,) these ideas are full of all kinds of holes, contradictions, paradoxes. Many of which are exceedingly obvious even to a 6 year old if they were not brainwashed by religions from the time of birth.
Also realize "the big bang" answer is just as complete and incomplete as the various god creation ideas. Neither concept being able to explain what preceded them. The big bang and evolution at least has real world testable, repeatable evidence supported by other repeatable and testable evidence that the big bang theory is much more likely to be correct then the completely unevidenced uncorroborated "god" ideas.
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Or was your typo corrected, reads: how it's possible that we got where we are now without creation.
That one is even easier to answer. "Creation" (in the religion sense) is a completely unevidenced idea. The idea is just as good and bad as any other idea anyone makes up that lacks any evidence to back it. It is garbage, an idea that should be discarded, long ago really as it had literally thousands of years and billions of people that have all tried to prove and evidence it, and they have all failed, instead relying on trickery to "win" people to their side of thinking.
Additionally asking atheist to answer that question is perfectly fine, but expecting a universal explanation on the atheist way of thinking is erroneous. The only thing that unites people that say they are atheist is the fact that they do not believe in any god(s). That's it. Atheist in no way have a united universal stance on how the universe came to be.
Do I understand it? I think I understand a bit better than most spending more time studying and thinking on the subject then most. I also know there is a lot of proof, with some of the simpler proofs and test of evidence I have done my self. I also believe, based on the evidence I have read and found and tested myself that there is great proof. A much better and more solid and useful stance then: "god magicked it!"
My understanding of how it is possible we got to where we are now?
Well my limited understanding is this (greatly shortened as this post is already very long): I am alive, my parents created me, like their parents before them. A ball of exotic elements and accompanying compounds held together by gravity created the necessary ingredients for life like ours. And given the trillions upon trillions of chances multiplied by trillions of years, that does not seem all that unlikely to me at all. In fact, to me it seems inevitable playing the "odds" game that life arose like us somewhere in the universe that happens to be "earth." (And quite likely has, or is, taken place elsewhere in the vast universe as well, if playing with a slightly different rule set.)
There answered your questions.
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What do I have to be right about? I have made no assertion. If you are going to assert a god is real, yes you must prove it. Out of the millions of available gods, you must pick one or invent a new one and prove it is the only real god. We want to know how you eliminated all the other gods and came up with the one real one you have. Failing to do that we simply have no reason to believe your claim. No one here has made a claim. We are simply asking for evidence. You have a burden of proof.
You asked specifically about the origin of eggs e.g. eggshells, not the fertilization of eggs.
Ok. But this time I asked about the fertilization of eggs.
How did a fertilized egg evolve?
I suggest you read scientific research and books regarding the evolution of sexual reproduction, as well as scientific websites dedicated to discussing biology.
Can you explain it at all? Just general, basic concepts?
I would prefer it if you read many of the readily available resources on the subject by experts in the field.
Could you tell me how much you know about evolution by means of natural selection, and how much time have you devoted to your own research of the subject?
Sure, I'll tell you. Not very much. I know that natural selection creates stronger members of the species because the strongest get to breed more. But it just makes stronger members of the species, not a new species, so I wouldn't call it evolution. I think evolution is about creating new species.
Now, will you tell me how you think something evolved into a fertilized egg ?
And when a subgroup like you describe changes enough that they are no long capable of reproducing with other members of their species, you have a new species.
That's weird.
No. You are confusing Social Darwinism with Basic Evolution. Survival of the strongest does not mean what you think it means. It is not the strongest in the sense of strength. It is the strongest in the sense of survival. The ability to hide, fly, swim, think rationally, bond with others, develop armored skin, etc.... are all survival mechanisms. It is not the strongest that survive but rather those that adapt to their environment that survive. It is also a FACT that new species are created. "SCIENTIFIC FACT.' Speciation occurs commonly throughout the world.
It is not the job of Atheists to explain a fertilized egg to you. What makes you think a forum full of atheists would even care about such a thing? No one needs to know where a fertilized egg came from to listen to an argument for the existence of a God. If we have no idea at all where a fertilized egg comes from, it does not mean a God did it.
If you want to assert your god is real and exists, you are going to have to define it.
We know that chickens and eggs exist. If your position is that God didn't make them, then you must have another answer. How did you come to the conclusion that God doesn't exist without thinking about an alternative?
What was the last new species that got created?
I thought my position was quite clear. A FORUM FULL OF ATHEISTS IS NOT THE RIGHT PLACE TO ASK SUCH A QUESTION. It has nothing to do with atheism. GO AND ASK A BIOLOGIST. And finally, EVEN IF WE HAVE NOT IDEA AT ALL WHERE THE FIRST FERTALIZED EGG CAME FROM, IT DOES NOT FOLLOW THAT A GOD DID IT. You actually have to have evidence for the god you are claiming made the first fertilized egg. You are asserting that you know how it was done. All we are doing is asking for the evidence.
Speciation has regularly been observed to occur:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
Vince Grabo,
Welcome to the arena.
Everything that we see now is part of a continuing evolutionary process. It essentially started with "Nothing", which we can't really define because we have no idea what its properties are. But then came quantum foam which produces elemental particles. Those elemental particles evolve into more complex elemental particles until hydrogen atoms are formed. The hydrogen atoms collect into huge balls that go nuclear and stars go on line. The stars produce heavier elements and then eventually explode. Where it gets tricky is that a new star is formed and the former star's material clumps together and forms planets. The planets then create new elements in their own cores.
Eventually the dead elements form organic compounds that become self-replicating, which is basic life. The basic life keeps evolving into more complex forms and branches off into all sorts of life forms. That is where we are now but it is not the end of the line. The universe will continue to evolve. Our problem is that we don't know what the universe is or how large it is. But we think that there is over 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe. If each galaxy occupied 1 cubic foot of space you would have a sphere of about 7 miles in diameter. Now find the one cubic foot of space that our galaxy occupies in that 7 mile diameter sphere.
Chickens are just descendants of feathered dinosaurs. They lay eggs just like their ancestors did. How does the liquid get inside the egg shell?
All female animals produce eggs. How did the first human exist when there were no humans before it? He evolved from a fish. The fish evolved from a worm. The worm still exists, it is our gut.
"Eventually the dead elements form organic compounds that become self-replicating, which is basic life"
You're saying that dead elements come to life like it's no big deal. It's a huge deal. How could this happen? If something's dead, where did the life come from?
We have dead elements everywhere and they don't spring to life.
Could you fill in the gap on this?
"Dead" may not have been the best descriptor. It can be confusing when you do not understand how evolution works.
I think it may aid you to realize the distinction between "alive and dead" (stepping aside the evolution argument for a second) is not a clear thin line like many people think it is. It is actually a very wide very blurry line.
When you die, you do not 100% die all at once within seconds, (unless you fall into a pool of molten lava or something.) The only thing that happens quickly is your consciousness fades as the brain gets starved of oxygen and other nutrients. The rest of the body takes longer, and in special cases, say an organ transplant, a part of the body could live on for decades after the majority of it dies.
This sort of blurry line also applies to the origins of life. Very simple "living" things may have blinked in and out of existence, only "surviving" for a few seconds before returning back to an unorganized cluster of elements, compounds etc. Eventually those very simple "living" organisms survived for more than a few seconds, a few trillion tries later, they may live long enough that expansion could occur and it grows in size and complexity, later adding in things like cells, then mitosis, dna etc.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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How does an unorganized cluster of elements slip into life? What draws the elements together and organizes them? In nature, things that aren't alive become less complex, not more.
Lots of people have died all at once. I don't see how the fact that some don't has anything to do with the origin of life.
Hi Vince:
Now you are moving from Biology to Cosmology. Why are you on an Atheist forum. How did unorganized clusters of elements slip into life -- Go Ask a Cosmologist. This is the same shit you just tried to pull with Biology. Why are you on an atheist site talking about cosmology? If everything we knew about cosmology was proved wrong tomorrow, it would not move your God one step closer to being real.. You are also conflicting biology with cosmology. Do you really have any idea at all about that which you are attempting to discuss? I don't mean to be rued but you sound like you are about 14 and don't really have a grasp of the sciences.
NOTHING IN ANYTHING YOU HAVE SAID THROUGHOUT YOUR POSTS HAVE ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH YOUR ORIGINAL POST AND "ATHEISM."
Nice insults. And capital letters.
I thought that people who don't believe in God would have some thoughts on how things got created. How did you decide that God doesn't exist without thinking about this?
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