Critique of the book "Why there is no God" by Armin Navabi

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David Killens's picture
Me too Sheldon. After the

Me too Sheldon. After the first two paragraphs, it became patently obvious all fergie is doing is preaching crap. He is not worth responding to, he is not worth reading.

Nyarlathotep's picture
ferguson1951 - I am a

ferguson1951 - I am a believer because Christian practice to me is the right thing to do: As the Gospel says: "This is true religion: helping the orphan and the widow"...

That is oddly phrased for the bible, imo. What verse is that, and in which English translation (King James, NIV, etc) does it appear?

Sheldon's picture
I'm guessing Ferguson is done

I'm guessing Ferguson is done reading anyone else's posts. He couldn't understand even the most basic rudimentary arguments anyway, as he's proving with rant over a book he's clearly not read but whose title offend his superstitious hokum beliefs.

ferguson1951's picture
CHAPTER 6: «God answers

CHAPTER 6: «God answers prayers; therefore he must be real.»

James 4:2-3 New Living Translation (NLT)
2 You want what you don’t have, so you scheme and kill to get it. You are jealous of what others have, but you can’t get it, so you fight and wage war to take it away from them. Yet you don’t have what you want because you don’t ask God for it. 3 And even when you ask, you don’t get it because your motives are all wrong—you want only what will give you pleasure.

Romans 8
James 4:2-3 New Living Translation (NLT)
2 You want what you don’t have, so you scheme and kill to get it. You are jealous of what others have, but you can’t get it, so you fight and wage war to take it away from them. Yet you don’t have what you want because you don’t ask God for it. 3 And even when you ask, you don’t get it because your motives are all wrong—you want only what will give you pleasure.

The Lord's prayer

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE IN EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.

-----------------------------------

This Chapter is the epitome of imbecility.

For years I prayed the Rosary, St Brigitte's prayers and many more but then I got bored repeating always the same things so I changed. I simply speak to Mary. I do not feel holy enough to speak to Jesus directly because I know that with my sins I make Him suffer. In any case, Mary will relay my prayers to Him in a more adequate way. Most of the time I thank them for the good things that happen in my life BUT I NEVER SET MY CONDITIONS TO THE LORD because I know I do not know what is good for me. I simply place myself in His hands. I have no fear of anything. I have no fear of illness or death and I am quite happy with the turns my life takes. I like the Christian life because it is an adventurous life that keeps me alive. I also do not need to pray much because I know the Lord knows I constantly look for Him and try hard to follow His steps. I do not need to become rich or famous. In fact, I avoid those things like the pest because those are the things atheists and false believers look for. And, to sum it roughly, the true Christian life is the opposite of what the world does.

I couldn't care less about scientific polls. In 20 years 140 children died in the US because of their parents' stupid prayers? Well, only in Italy 180,000 people who almost certainly do not pray because nobody cares about religion anymore die because science is unable to cure cancer. Multiply that for 20 years and you get the picture.

Anecdotal evidence is of little use in science? Who cares? We are not talking about science, we are talking about religion. Science is the thing the Lord cleans His arse with.

To date there have been no reputable scientific studies showing any clear link between prayer and healing? Who cares? Scientic studies are the passtime of people who have nothing better to do with their lives.

The fact that «religious» people are stupid enough to think that if you had simply prayed better or been a better person bad things wouldn't happen to you does nothing to alter the immense benefits of a true religious life.
Saint Francis of Assisi in Italy is considered the saint who most resembled Jesus. Francis could not care less about his health. He never touched even a penny, would eat what was handed out, always refused to see a doctor and died of diseases at 44 not fearing suffering and death in the least.

True believers could not care less about their bodies. We do not identify with our bodies but with our immortal souls. It is the soul that we want healthy enough, no matter what happens to our bodies.

Matthew 10

28 «Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.»

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.»

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.»

Nyarlathotep's picture
ferguson1951 - True believers

ferguson1951 - True believers could not care less about their bodies. We do not identify with our bodies but with our immortal souls. It is the soul that we want healthy enough, no matter what happens to our bodies.

V.S.

ferguson1951 - At 68 my blood tests are perfect.

ferguson1951 - I practice 8-day fasting every 5 years, so that I get rid of all the junk graduates make me eat.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently ferguson1951 is not a true believer, since clearly he cares enough about his body to get his blood tested, and partakes in extreme diets for (perhaps dubious) health reasons.

Sheldon's picture
"The 2006 STEP project, found

"The 2006 STEP project, found no significant differences in patients recovering from heart surgery whether the patients were prayed for or not. The patients who knew they were receiving prayers did experience slightly higher recovery complications, possibly due to chance and to the added anxiety or pressure caused by expectations from the prayers."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer#The_STEP_...

Geddit fergie? The most comprehensive study of the efficacy of intercessory prayer spanning ten years of research, using double blind clinical trials showed it had no effect. In fact the patients who knew they were being prayed for fared worse than any other group.

Of course apologists like yourself were quick to indulge the usual cretinous denials of this objective empirical evidence with the usual religious rhetoric, (see your moronic rants against science above), using the usual canards apologists indulge, such as prayer and religion can't be studied by science. Which is quite funny since it was entirely funded by a religious organisation in the first place. The Templeton foundation, which has long tried to find scientific evidence to support religious beliefs in a deity and the supernatural. Tried and always failed of course, and of course one could only imagine the clamor if the results ever go their own way, but that's theists for you, you can't dent the idiocy of selection bias.

PRAYER DOES NOT WORK

and no amount of unevidenced anecdotal claims, or appeal to ignorance fallacies will alter the results when they're properly studied under objective conditions.

Get over it...

Sheldon's picture
ferguson "science is unable

ferguson "science is unable to cure cancer."

Science cures cancer patients every day you lying clown. If your absurd superstitious fantasy were true, you'd be worshipping a being that created cancer, and a multitude of other vile diseases, and a being sits on its hands and let's children die in agony every day.

At least science enables humans who care to help relieve suffering. Your deity doesn't give a fickle about suffering if it exists, and there is zero evidence it is anymore real than Thor, Zeus, or the Aztec deity of gluttony.

Your posts are becoming more moronic each time you post these ignorant idiotic rants, that you are misrepresenting as a critique of a book you have clearly not read.

Sheldon's picture
Ok I've added this book to my

Ok I've added this book to my Amazon wish list, and will download to my Kindle later. Anything ferguson disagrees so angrily with, must contain some intelligent cogent thoughts. As his angry ignorant rants are clearly insane idiotic nonsense.

Sheldon's picture
Ok I've downloaded and

Ok I've downloaded and started reading this book, and will offer a proper critique of my own. If only because Ferguson,'s imbecillic rants clearly have nothing to do with the book's contents, and are just a childish tantrum he's throwing over the title.

I'll be starting later (time restraints notwithstanding) with the introduction which Bullwinkle skipped entirely, as it has already offered context for the entire book, not just a wailing sulking reaction to its title. A title that is a little misleading, as we shall see.

Sheldon's picture
Ok here goes.

Ok here goes.

The introduction (paraphrased) states:

The purpose of the book, is to provide counter arguments to many of the popular arguments made for God.

This of course is not what the title suggest. No criticism intended of course, as titles are supposed to be catchy and grab the attention. However when an ignorant and angry theist like ferguson reads the title and not the book, combined with his woeful grasp of English and the basics of how to construct strong rational arguments, well the risible results are in this thread for all to see.

The introduction explain that each chapter contains a short and simple explanation of the (theistic) claim, followed by a response showing the problems and fallacies inherent in that claim.

NOTE ferguson HAS NOT BOTHERED WITH ANY ANALYSIS OF THESE

It goes on to explain the book is intended for atheists, who think the concept of God is an important one worth examining and discussing critically.

For theists, who disagree with its contents, to allow them to understand the reasoning behind many people's atheism, and to help them debate and have more productive discussions with atheists having taken the time to understand their position.

NOTE THIS COULDN'T BE FURTHER FROM THE POINT OF FERGUSONS RANTS

MORE TO FOLLOW...

Calilasseia's picture
Sheldon, when you get to the

Sheldon, when you get to the chapter on morality, let us all know if Navabi mentions or discusses the scientific findings on the subject, such as those I've covered in other posts. This could prove informative.

Sheldon's picture
OK so chapter 1 is a rebuttal

OK so chapter 1 is a rebuttal to the apologist argument that science can't explain the complexity and order of life, so god must have designed it to be this way.

The author references Paley's teleological argument, and of course his now infamous and much debunked watchmaker fallacy. Making the obvious point that in an entirely designed universe complexity would be irrelevant, as there would be no difference between a watch and a rock, or even a grain of sand. Thus complexity would be irrelevant. 0

We have an infallible benchmark that infers design, and this is designed things never occur naturally, or in nature. This is before we point out we have objective evidence that watches are designed, Paley simply picked something we already know is designed, he even compares the designed watch to it's NATURAL surroundings, without seeing his obvious error.

The author then references John Conway's the game of life, a mathematical model that objectively evidences complexity arising from a few simple cells following basic mathematical rules. Without the need for any intelligent intervention. Of course evolution is an entirely natural process that has produced immense complexity. The author then explains that if complexity inferred design, then a deity would necessarily have to have been designed itself, or else the argument has an obvious and inerrant contradiction.

Now compare this to ferguson's disjointed and irrelevant rant.

ferguson "CHAPTER 1

This chapter is too stupid for comments but I shall make an effort.
Complexity by design.
In the Creed, I am asked to confess that I believe that God is the Creator of everything. In actual fact that does not mean much to me.
If I had to prove that God created life and the universe, I cannot. I cannot go back all those millennia and see what actually happened.
Nor can atheists prove to me that complexity was created naturally. We are on the same boat.
They cannot prove that ancient tribes saw deities in lightning and volcanoe eruptions. They would have to go back all those centuries and do a poll across people of those days to ascertain why they belived that.
Our theory is just as valid: God "wrote" His signature inside every human being, so that they would not completely lose touch with the Divine.
Evolution by natural selection is one more such theory. It is only a theory. It explains how species evolved from the beginning, but there is absolutely no proof, no evidence, that things actually happened that way. It is just one more theory. Plus, the scientific community is still divided between evolutionists and creationists, so you see . . . .
As regards hurricanes, Christians believe that God is quite capable of sending a hurricane in addition to those that happen naturally."

I seriously don't think he has the reading capacity to understand let alone critique this book, Look at his comments on lightning and volcanoes, and compare it to the reference to these in chapter 1, it's pitiful.

David Killens's picture
Thank you Sheldon. Your

Thank you Sheldon. Your comments are an anchor to reality and sanity, while fergie takes us on a cosmic voyage of woo woo and ignorance.

Tin-Man's picture
@David Re: "...while fergie

@David Re: "...while fergie takes us on a cosmic voyage of woo woo and ignorance."

Hey, for what it's worth, I think folks should maybe lighten up on Fergie a bit. After all, it must already be difficult enough for the poor guy being a double-secret agent Christian working for the atheist community. Gosh! I can't even begin to imagine the stress he must experience each and every day knowing that his cover could be blown at any moment simply because of a careless slip of the tongue made by somebody. And we all know how God and his followers feel about those who betray Him.... *drawing index finger slowly across throat*... So maybe cutting Fergie a little slack wouldn't be such a bad idea. And remember, loose lips sink ships. That means we all need to do our best to help protect Fergie's secret mission. So don't go blabbing about it all over the site, folks. Okay?.... *eyes widen in realization*... Oh... Wait....

Grinseed's picture
Thank you Sheldon for your

Thank you Sheldon for your time and effort writing your review. Now of course I am obliged to buy the book myself.
Reading Fergus's "critique" I have learned nothing about anything except Fergus; a sad old bugger fixed in his egocentric jaundiced intolerant and disenchanted view of the world. He evokes my pity. The Catholic Church has one more victim to answer for.
Bye Fergus & good luck.

Calilasseia's picture
With respect to the whole

With respect to the whole "design" assertion (which has never been anything other than an assertion on the part of mythology fanboys), there are so many holes in this, that it's actually more holes than substance. Paley himself apparently never noticed either the irony or the incongruity, of choosing to base his assertion on an artefact that exhibits numerous radical differences from the entities observed in the biosphere. First of all, virtually none of the constituents of the biosphere are constructed from refined metal alloys, or in a manner that allows significant structural parts to be removed therefrom without damaging the whole. (Organisms such as lizards that can shed their tails to avoid predation, then grow a new replacement later, of course deserve their own special attention, which is beyond the scope of this critique). Indeed, this was one of the aspects of the output of the notorious Turkish creationist Adnan Oktar (under his pseudonym Harun Yahya), that led to much mirth and merriment when his expensively produced Atlas of Creation was circulated to scientists around the globe.

For those unfamiliar with the Harun Yahya hilarity, I shall expand here. The lavishly tooled Atlas of creation was disseminated by Oktar's organisation (which has since come to the attention of Turkish law enforcement for racketeering and sex crimes, but I digress), with the sole, repeated ad nauseam aim of trying to peddle the notion that a wide range of organisms had purportedly remained unchanged over millions of years. This despite, of course, the detailed work of the requisite experts establishing through proper comparative anatomical analysis that the organisms in question were indeed different species, and in the case of many of the insects, would have been unable to reproduce through mechanical genital incompatibility. But again, I digress. However, it is obvious that the modus operandi underpinning the Atlas of Creation, consisted of drafting assorted mythology-addled madrassa inmates into the project, for the purpose of surfing the Internet for lots of pretty pictures that could then be printed side by side in facile comparative manner. Unfortunately, the total biological ignorance of these draftees led to much hilarity, such as comparing eels with sea snakes. Richard Dawkins alighted upon some pants-wetting examples of this stupidity back in 2008 or thereabouts.

But, matters are even worse than this. Some of the photos purporting to depict various spiders or caddis flies, for example, are, wait for it, photographs of fishing lures. PZ Myers milked this finding for all it was worth over at his Pharyngula blog, and the original fabricator of those fishing lures, one Graham Owen, enjoyed his Warholian 15 minutes in the spotlight when it was revealed that the photos in question were lifted straight from his website. A brief exposition of the fiasco can be read here over at PZ Myers' other home, and a more detailed look at the stolen photos can be enjoyed here. Last time I checked, no caddis fly, living or fossil, had a honking big metal hook sticking out of its arse end, and I'd have laughed at this even before I studied any actual invertebrate zoology.

But, absence of metal parts aside (with the exception of some ichneumon wasps that have zinc ovipositor tips, but that's an interesting evolutionary development that's attracted its own collection of scientific papers), there are much bigger holes in the "design" assertion, than those involving elementary comparisons of watches with seaweed, for example. One of the big conceptual holes centres upon the fact that human design activities are being used in Paley's failed apologetics as a proxy for supernatural magic "design". Except that supernatural magic "design" is asserted from the beginning, to possess features that have never been a part of human design activities, which means that this is an apples versus aeroplanes pseudo-comparison fatally compromising the entire apologetics, before said apologetics even begins moving properly. The diligent will be able to verify independently, that a central feature of supernatural magic "design", certainly as asserted by creationists, is that it involves perfect foreknowledge of the behaviour of components in isolation and when integrated, a feature that has never been a feature of human design activities, and which makes supernatural magic "design" so radically different from human design as to invalidate the comparison from the start.

Using human design activities as a proxy for supernatural magic "design" is even worse, however, because any proper analysis of human design activities, reveals that they are, in fact, far closer to the evolutionary process than the asserted "design" process of imaginary magic men. Every technology humans have devised, has been developed via the following steps:

[1] Generate some variations;

[2] Discard the failures;

[3] Build upon the successes.

Which, wait for it, is exactly how evolution operates in the biosphere!

Taking for example, aircraft design, which creationists love to use for their apologetics via the tiresome "747 from a junkyard" apologetic faeces, one only has to look at the documented early history of this sphere of activity, to realise that aircraft development was far closer to an evolutionary process than to any process involving magic and a magic man. Because the surviving film footage from the era, documents the numerous hilarious early failures that were generated and subsequently discarded, before actual working, successful first aircraft were developed and took flight. This short video clip is merely one of many available on YouTube covering that early period of experimentation and generation of numerous failures. This also exposes the duplicity inherent in that part of creationist apologetics, which points to mature technologies as purportedly supporting the "design" assertion, whilst failing to mention the early history thereof and its litany of trial and error. For that matter, even mature technologies sometimes contain examples of interesting failure, the classic one in recent times being Air France 296.

As if all of this were not enough to expose the vacuity and intellectual bankruptcy of the "design" assertion (and I have yet to encounter a supernaturalist who knows what is required to turn that assertion into something other than a blind assertion - the regulars here who so know what's required are requested to let the supernaturalists do their own homework unassisted at this juncture), watchmaking itself also exhibits a smiliar, evolution-like history of its own. When one traces the actual documented history of watches, one finds again a process of gradual development involving trial and error. The first portable clocks were still far too big to be carried in a pocket, let alone worn upon a wrist, and the first such instances of these, back in the 15th century, only had an hour hand. The accuracy of these devices was so low that they were little more than expensive toys for rich people.

It took finite time for watchmakers to learn, for example, that the force delivered by a mainspring is not a constant, and that some means of taking account of this had to be devised, and the first of these, a device known as a stackfreed, was abandoned after about 100 years because of the undesirable friction it introduced into the mechanism. The fusee, a different device, persisted for longer, but was eventually abandoned in the 19th century when a superior solution arose. The balance spring only appeared in 1657, and the first watches with a minute hand only appeared around 1680 as a result of the development of the balance spring. The verge escapement, which had been used in large pendulum driven clocks since the 13th century, was replaced by the cylinder escapement in 1695 - it took humans three hundred years or so to move on to this better idea. We had to wait until 1759 for the lever escapement, which, ironically, only made major inroads into Swiss watchmaking around 1900.

We had to wait until 1923 for the first successful self-winding system, based upon converting the wearer's arm motion into rotary motion that kept the mainspring tension constant. The Incabloc shock protection system, to protect jewel bearings from critical failure stresses if the watch was dropped, wasn't invented until 1934. The first working electrically powered watches did not appear until 1957.

Once again, the history of watches is replete with trial and error, discarding of failures, and building upon successes, and the development of the modern wrist watch bears more resemblance to an evolutionary process than to "magic design". As a corollary, using watches as a proxy for "Magic Man did it" constitutes apologetic failure at its most ludicrous to those of us who paid attention in class.

The fun part being, of course, that Paley himself would, if he had exercised diligent effort in this vein, have discovered how watchmaking had exhibited an evolutionary history of its own, and avoided using this in his ludicrous apologetics, but intellectual diligence tends to be absent from much supernaturalist apologetics full stop.

Then, of course, we have the fact that humans document their design activities, and in many instances that documentation enters the public domain, enabling the successes to be replicated by anyone who possesses certain key basic skills. Indeed, the written word and the diagram have become, in a sense, the "genetic material" facilitating replication of the successes. No such documentation exists for the biosphere - biologists and chemists have had to tease out the details through two centuries of diligent experimentation, in order to figure out the operation of various parts thereof, and one of the ironies of this process, is that scientists seeking solutions to various problems, have pressed evolution into service in the laboratory as a means of generating the solutions they seek. I have numerous scientific papers covering the application of in vitro evolution (not to mention in silico evolution in the case of computer simulations) that illustrate this point perfectly, namely, that evolutionary processes work to the point of being pressed into scientific service in laboratory experiments.

Quite simply, there is so much basic, elementary conceptual failure endemic to the "design" assertion, that resort to this failed apologetics should properly be seen as an act of desperation on the part of mythology fanboys. Dismissal thereof after recognising the requisite conceptual failures, is unavoidable for anyone who conducts discourse in an honest manner.

ferguson1951's picture
Chapter 7: « I feel a

Chapter 7: « I feel a personal relationship with God, so I know that he is real».

To me, that is a perfectly sound statement and I identify myself with it.
I do not see why I should convince scientists that my relationship with God is genuine, considering that I repute science less than shit.
I have a personal relationship with God not because I see angels coming ta have tea with me or I hear voices in my brain.
I have a relationship with God because I try my best to live the way He wants and as a result He keeps His word with me.

That near-death experiences are caused by chemical reactions may be true in some cases but not in all.
The problem is that Armin is biased, he has to prove that God does not exist so he falsifies evidence.
I remeber quite clearly about one doctor who specialized in studying near death experiences.
In his room he placed a sticker showing a little elephant on top of a cupboard, therefore hiddeen from view. Very soon a patient with near-death experience reported having come back to earth and seen the sticker.

Armin knows nothing about messages from God. He just read all that crap that science dishes out in order to prove that the supernatural does not exist.
Then he comes out only with the hallucinatory reports by fanatic people who will make nearly any absurd claim in order to feel that God likes them. We know of people who will claim that they hear voices in tgheir brains asking them to kill.

A true personal relationship with God is something very different. In this completely decadent world it is hard to find and I do not see why I should prove my case with any scientific idiot who is so arrogant that he feels he is the only one authorized to judge.

I am quite happy with my personal relationship with God, I do not hear voices, I do not have visions, I simply practice the Gospel and can attest that God, in return, acts as promised in Scripture.

Faith, hope and charity. Most Christians do not know this because they do not want to be disturbed. They want an easy life with a very light religious sprinkling so they just go to mass.

1 Corinthians

13 «And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.»

I practice fraternal charity to the best of my ability, have faith that that is basically what God wants and live in the hope that one day, when I quit this revolting world with its revolting mankind, I will be able to rest for good in perfect joy and happiness.

If that is not true, what instead has the world to offer me? what promises can the world make me? what reward if I abide? NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. We are left to fend for ourselves. In this selfish individualistic society nobody will help me if I fell down from the ladder.

I could tell about the times when I, who am nobody and cannot impress anybody, received help from God to reach my aims, to avoid enemies, to keep on living my simple life, constantly threatened by my fellow human beings. Their envy, their arrogance, their hatred, their disregard for basic human rights. It is all in a book I wrote (700 pages) that I will soon publish.

Where was science when I was so often harassed by even ordinary people for no reason at all, simply because I behave in a way that they do not agree with?

I do not have to prove anything. I found my way in life without having to conform to this repugnant society and I hold it very tight.

You prefer not to believe in God because that is what science orders you to believe? Suit yourselves. I could not care less. Apart from the fact that I ran out of ideas about how I can get you to understand something this simple: that there cannot be scientific evidence of God's existence.

Bruce Springsteen

Cover me

“The times are tough now
just getting tougher
this old world is rough
it’s just getting rougher
cover me, come on baby, cover me
well I’m looking for a lover
who will come on in and cover me
promise me baby
you won’t let them find us
hold me in your arms
let’s let our love blind us
cover me, shut the door and cover me
well I’m looking for a lover
who will come on in and cover me

Outside’s the rain, the driving snow
I can hear the wild wind blowing
turn out the light, bolt the door
I ain’t going out there no more

THIS WHOLE WORLD IS OUT THERE
JUST TRYING TO SCORE
I’ve seen enough
I don’t want to see any more
cover me, come on and cover me
I’m looking for a lover
who will come on in and cover me
looking for a lover
who will come on in and cover me”.

Dark One's picture
Science has pretty much

Science has pretty much covered NDEs the dying brain, which is still biologically active at this point goes into a massive psychedelic DMT overload, it essentially keeps in a calm peaceful state while you're in the process of death. You may encounter beings of religious significance at this point though exactly what people see seems to depend on their religious background. This scene from Babylon 5 was based on peoples differing NDE experiences which is rather cool imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzBDhnWK6zg

It's worth bearing in mind that they are called NEAR death experiences they're not experiences of actual death if such a thing is ever possible to experience. We were all essentially dead 1 billion years ago as we weren't alive at that point but we didn't mind it then and we won't mind it 1 billion years into the future either. Perhaps the universe and time just cycles around infinitely and we're just born into the time into which we were born forever that would count as some form of immortality if such a thing is very strongly desired. Understandable seeing the state of life is objectively better than the state of non-life. We would still be kind of immortal if time is linear seeing as you can only exist where you are alive, you can get into some Epicurean philosophy with that line of thought.

“Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not.”
― Epicurus

“He who is not satisfied with a little, is satisfied with nothing .”
― Epicurus

“Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.”
― Epicurus

“do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not”
― Epicurus

Get off my lawn's picture
@ferguson51:

@ferguson51:

"near-death experiences are caused by chemical reactions may be true in some cases but not in all."

How do you know? Or is it just an unfounded assertion?

David Killens's picture
@ferguson1951

@ferguson1951

That near-death experiences are caused by chemical reactions may be true in some cases but not in all.
The problem is that Armin is biased, he has to prove that God does not exist so he falsifies evidence.
I remeber quite clearly about one doctor who specialized in studying near death experiences.
In his room he placed a sticker showing a little elephant on top of a cupboard, therefore hiddeen from view. Very soon a patient with near-death experience reported having come back to earth and seen the sticker.

I call BS on this one. What doctor? When? Or was it what you read from the Elephant Journal, a bullshit web site that deals in spiritualism?

I don't expect you to actually be able to back up your assertions. Your brain Is a confusing mess (just look at how your posts ramble around), and on top of it all, you are a patent liar.

For example, now you are citing a report from a doctor, while multiple times you have gone to great lengths to dismiss and demean anything from anyone who has an education higher than grade school.

Sheldon's picture
@ferguson

@ferguson

And the book, what does that say? All you've done AGAIN is quote the theist argument that chapter is going to rebutt, and blithely stated you agree with it. How is that a critique of the book? Do you not understand a critique of the book must comment on it's contents?

ferguson1951's picture
I refuse to talk your

I refuse to talk your language. Your language is cold, arid , rational and useless for dealing with the actual life people live.
I quote a doctor so that you can see that your own people go against your stupid rational soulless biased statements, chosen only among the ones that serve your purposes and disregarding the wider picture.
Sheldon in particular makes my bowels twist.

In addition, among other things, I am a popular philosopher. I only deal with concepts that may help people live a better life in this loathsome world that more resembles sewage since rationalists and scientists filled it with their nauseating philosophies.
Nietzsche himself was so sick of it he, who hated religion,would advise people to look for models in the arts, theater and the like

Bruce Springsteen

Born in the USA

Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
'Til you spend half your life just coverin' up

Born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
Born in the U.S.A

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
Born in the U.S.A

Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
Went down to see my V.A. man
He said "Son, don't you understand"

I had a brother at Khe Sanh fighting off the Viet Cong
They're still there, he's all gone
He had a woman he loved in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms now

Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I'm ten years burning down the road
Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go

Born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
Born in the U.S.A
I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A
Born in the U.S.A
Born in the U.S.A
Born in the U.S.A
I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A

Dark One's picture
It's worth bearing in mind

It's worth bearing in mind that the Christian hereafter is meant to be physical anyway. You're meant to be resurrected back into your current physical body only it would be a perfect ageless, disease free, invulnerable to injury kind of body. NDEs can be replicated by other means than dying easily enough, just take some DMT and you're away with the angels.

Atheism isn't really meant to be something to help people deal with deal with life in the same way as a religion would that's fair to say, but it's really meant to. You would have to look to philosophy, counselling, self help guides and kind of thing, look elsewhere for that.

All atheism is really is that some people like yourself make various supernatural claims and we come along to ask for some substantiation/prove/evidence for what you claim/s. It's not just religions such as Christianity and Islam we ask the same thing of say homeopathy, astrology, dowsing, healing crystals, Ouija boards, ghosts and the list can go on. The idea is we assume nothing unless there is good evidence for it. There's nothing here to deal with the lives people live but again there are a ton of other secular options elsewhere that can help people with that.

Sheldon's picture
"Sheldon in particular makes

"Sheldon in particular makes my bowels twist."

Then my day hasn't been a waste, now do you have a single word to say about any of the contents of the book you have lied about critiquing?

ferguson1951's picture
Even so, I insist that you

Even so, I insist that you rational scientific atheists are bent on disproving anything that is not supported by evidence. The world is full of useful things that do not belong to the scientific paradigm.
One day I happened to come across a tarot reader. She told me "You are about to make a purchase that you will regret."
I do not normally seek the advice of that sort of people. She was just a normal woman, living in a workers district and did not charge me one penny.
In fact, the next day I was supposed to go and sign a contract regarding a field where I wanted to practice some agriculture. Thank God I eventually did not. I was going to buy land without having enough knowledge to make a good choice. All I wanted to do was quit the job that made me so unhappy and try growing some vegetables.
I did not sign the contract and I kept my money to make one of my chilhood dreams come true: visit India.

I lived in a very ancient house in Devon (England) in an area mentioned in the Domesday book (1086). There was an old water mill ,attached to the house, that I had to renovate. The water passed under the house and if you were not so dumb and illiterate in this sort of thing you would know that water that runs under a house often favours the presence of paranormal activity. In fact, the owner knew about that, he was into magic and liked the idea of living with that presence. We would find locked door open the next morning, and lights on, My tools would disappear and things like that.
You can say whatever you like. You can produce tons of the Lancet magazine stating that those things are the result of paranoid illness , you can get Trump to put me in jail for mentioning this sort of thing: I lived them, I know I am not gullible, I do not even care about ghosts or tarot card readers. I am 100% positive that those things happen, although like most things in life they are not mathematical (who cares?).

You take DMT and you are away with the angels does not absolutely 100% exclude that there are other ways of being away with the angels. This is what your mind is totally unable to understand, having being destroyed by your university education.

Once a year in Naples the archbishop shows the crowd of Neapolitans standing at the forefront of the Cathedral a glass bubble containing the blood of Saint Gennaro. They all wait to see whether the dry blood will become liquid and it normally does.
Scientists are unable to produce the same result under the same circumstances with exactlky the same ingredients. All those demented idiots will say is that you can get the same result if you shake a glass bubble containing some iron substance.

This is why I despise science. Scientists are often just too stupid, in bad faith, demented . I much prefer to listen to the tales of an illiterate farmer.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ AB/CD/FIG/Fergie

@ AB/CD/FIG/Fergie

Scientists are often just too stupid, in bad faith, demented . I much prefer to listen to the tales of an illiterate farmer.

Of course you do, it reinforces your own feelings superiority. It also takes the sting away from your failure at University.

One day I happened to come across a tarot reader. She told me "You are about to make a purchase that you will regret."I do not normally seek the advice of that sort of people. She was just a normal woman, living in a workers district and did not charge me one penny.

Why didn't you kill her before she spoke? After all " Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
and
Leviticus 20:6
“If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people."
And
1 Chronicles 10:13-14
"So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance. He did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."
And
Leviticus 20:27
“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”
And
Micah 5:12
And I will cut off sorceries from your hand, and you shall have no more tellers of fortunes;

Looks like your fucked on judgement day Fergie old Pal. Thanks for sharing.

And the verse that really fucks you up, Fergie old pal, old mate?

1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Tsk tsk Tsk *shakes head at Fergie's consorting with the antichrist......* Condemned from his own post. The lake of fire awaits.....

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: To Fergie -

@Old Man Re: To Fergie - "Condemned from his own post. The lake of fire awaits....."

Awwww, maaaan... Fucking bummer! And here I was all this time having high hopes that Fergie would finally be THE ONE to lead us all away from the path of damnation. Ain't that just peachy?... *throwing hands up in exasperation*... NOW what are we suppose to do???

Dark One's picture
'Even so, I insist that you

'Even so, I insist that you rational scientific atheists are bent on disproving anything that is not supported by evidence.'

Yes absolutely, you can imagine the state of the world if no-one ever insisted on doing this, it would be a peculiar place even by your own standards. We would have Witch Trials, Crusades, Inquisitions and the whole entire lot. Atheism serves a good purpose in society even if it isn't for you personally. You can see some parts of the world that haven't entered the age of Enlightenment, they hang homosexuals.

http://www.thetower.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/FeaturedImage_2019-02...

And they stone women to death for adultery

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151104085956-afghanistan-stoning-...

Muslims that have become fully part of our secularised Western culture would never do anything like this.

One day I happened to come across a tarot reader. She told me "You are about to make a purchase that you will regret."

Erm...we all make purchases we regret at some point? Tarot cards were only card game originally they don't tell the future.

http://www.pathguy.com/tarocky/tarocky.html

You wasted your money there, this is why you need scepticism in your life. At least to some degree if you want to keep your faith then alright you don't have to go all the way.

'We would find locked door open the next morning, and lights on, My tools would disappear and things like that.'

I'd have your locks changed if I were you. Again this why you need to think sceptically/rationally just a little, even most Christians do outside of their faith.

'100% exclude that there are other ways of being away with the angels.'

Well you still have faith in them but the moment you make any kind of claim to have any kind of experience with anything like that then it's our job to to cast doubt on your claim. Until you provided objective evidence for it, which would be really interesting. The idea isn't to 100% exclude anything it is separate fact from fabrication.

'Scientists are unable to produce the same result under the same circumstances with exactlky the same ingredients.'

It's been duplicated, as best they can seeing as they're unable to attain the actual relic for scientific analysis.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/15/science/science-watch-chemists-duplic...

'This is why I despise science. Scientists are often just too stupid, in bad faith, demented . I much prefer to listen to the tales of an illiterate farmer.'

You typing that something onto something that was created by science not an illiterate farmer. Science has worked more miracles than any religion or supernatural magic ever has. If you were to go back in time and take someone from a thousand years ago and take them into our 21st world and you can imagine their reaction, everything here would be akin to the supernatural to them, it would be magic of the highest order. It isn't really supernatural magic though because it's understandable and we know how it works. With the atheism the general idea is that EVERYTHING is knowable and can be understood. At least eventually, it may take many thousands or millions of years to accomplish and we'll be living as pure energy inside black monoliths in space at that point but it can nonetheless be understood. If there were anything supernatural it could never fully be understood but going back to the time traveller example there will be things that exist that will SEEM supernatural to ourselves even if it is not really supernatural at all. It's up to you as to how much you want to accept the scientific worldview but you should accept it at least a little more than you apparently are doing. A faith that involves some rationalism and doubt is much more credible than someone who just believes anything for no good reason.

Sheldon's picture
" I much prefer to listen to

" I much prefer to listen to the tales of an illiterate farmer."

I can well believe it, the mind boggles what two illiterate halfwits might discuss mind. Now have you anything at all to say about the contents of the book you lied about critiquing?

Sheldon's picture
ferguson1951 "I know I am

ferguson1951 "I know I am not gullible"

ferguson1951 "water that runs under a house often favours the presence of paranormal activity. "

ferguson1951 "in Naples the archbishop shows the crowd of Neapolitans standing at the forefront of the Cathedral a glass bubble containing the blood of Saint Gennaro. They all wait to see whether the dry blood will become liquid and it normally does."

Oh the hilarity...

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