Economics and “morality”

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Whitefire13's picture
Economics and “morality”

Stumbled onto this little jewel... young Turks channel - I’m not familiar with their “agenda/politics” etc. BUT coming from a finance background this hammer hit the nail on the head.

I’m not a big “news” person so I wouldn’t have caught the original news clip...

CEO dumbfounds CNBC host:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NGGH7Wktdh4

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Whitefire13's picture
I know (for me anyway) it’s

I know (for me anyway) it’s early and the idea of money and talking about it brings up a whole lot of “beliefs”. You can get judged if you’re poor or rich, money talk is boring, I don’t know anything about economics, blah blah blah

Money is just a value system. That’s it. I like to talk about what we “value” because I believe that right now, because of self-isolation many people are being forced to consider this question.

David Killens's picture
I define "Reagonomics" as the

I define "Reagonomics" as the concept that "we must protect and do everything possible to reduce the taxes and other constraints on billionaires because they drive the economy"

From: https://www.businessinsider.com/most-unequal-countries-in-the-world-2011-10

"America is the #39 most unequal country in the world, based on the CIA-recognized Gini index.

The U.S. has more income inequality than Russia (#51) and China (#52). It ranks far worse than Portugal (#71), which is the worst in Western Europe."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Investing" in the stock market is gambling. One is not forced to do it, and there are alternate methods in making one's savings grow. The appeal of the stock market is that you could hit the jackpot. Which is what all investors dream of.

If I was to go down to the local betting office, if I win, fine. If I lose, I don't expect to get my money back.

I once bought a used car from an in-law, and we agreed I would buy it in "as-is" condition. Later on it was revealed the car had a hidden flaw even the seller did not know of, and the car had to be scrapped. He expressed regret at the sale because I lost two grand. I told him that he had absolutely no reason to be sad because I had accepted the "as-is" condition. It was on me, it was my fault, I owned it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtpwAg0KTeA

Sheldon's picture
He makes a valid point, I

He makes a valid point, I have worked full time for almost 40 years, and I have been wiped out twice, and now two years from potentially being able to retire on a very modest income, a divorce is going to take away my life savings so that i can keep my house, and I work in the aviation industry so may lose my job and have little or no chance of finding work.

I don't see the government coming to my aid, and there are people who are far worse off than me.

Whitefire13's picture
Yup to both. So this is

Yup to both. So this is where “value” comes in. So David, did you buy a car...newer model, warranty, etc. You still “invested”.
Sheldon...you value your home. You could sell it and “save” your life-savings. Everyone is feeling nervous about “job” security right now...something will work out for you :)

There’s always choice. Investing isn’t a bad thing. Owning a home and having “no savings” isn’t a bad thing - neither is selling the home or only being able to buy a second-hand car. There’s all sorts of “risks” but we measure those risk to value.

Ok - say you’re broke and fall into a “payday” loan...(that old car needs repair). You have every intention of paying it back. BUT now you’re saddled with upwards of over 60% (this is the low lol) interest rate so a good chunk of your small cheque is in the payday’s pocket. You know what I would say “walk the fuck away”. Close your account (if they have access or stop pmt it) and tell them to fuck off. There are financial laws that protect consumers from predatory lending and there is nothing the payday company can do. They can’t sue you. If they send it to collections tell the collector to tell the payday co. TO SUE you (the collector then can no longer legally call you). This is Canada/Alberta law BUT similar laws exist around the world so you need of course to research things before you make decisions.

I would LOVE to see “investors” actually bite their “loss” ... now not all investors will, in fact laws protect “retirement” type investments or other such - it’s the “speculative” “shell” type corrupt buddy-buddy type.

I live in oil country. The world, like it or not, needs oil...otherwise forget about the respirators, cell phones, autos (not just gas) - etc. So where is our value system with this resource. Where do we source it from? How is is sourced? Where people, communities and countries decide to put their dollars decide the “values” associated with this resource.
Why has the market moved toward organic or “free roam” eggs?

Cognostic's picture
Let them fail. One hundred

Let them fail. One hundred percent agreement. I thought most people on the site were more liberal? "Gotta save those jobs." The big airlines fail, some entrepreneur will step in and start a new business. The Government needs to BUTT OUT/ In so many ways.

Whitefire13's picture
Here’s another example of

Here’s another example of “predictability”. Where is everyone right now? At home. Forced to be together.
Now we may have another “baby boom” ...a year from now, diapers, formula, strollers, etc are going to be in demand.... or
Rental properties because divorce might skyrocket...
Leading to a “lowering” of property price (Eg Sheldon) - great time to buy bad time to sell...

David Killens's picture
@ Whitefire13

@ Whitefire13

I predict the same outcome. But there will also be positive aspects, it will be an opportunity for some people to capitalize on a changing market and consumer needs.

Did we protect the blacksmith trade? Because the introduction of the automobile wiped that millennium long trade out of existence in a blink of an eye.

Whitefire13's picture
China can only operate as it

China can only operate as it does politically because it moved its economic policy to capitalism.

I’m not a this or that with economics... I’m a this AND that...

Whitefire13's picture
David...lol I thought was I

David...lol I thought was I wrote was positive. Yes some are going the way of the dinosaur but oil won’t be anytime soon, as gold didn’t when it was used as a “value” behind money. Too many uses for the products from this resource.

I’m assuming you meant the oil post since that’s a big issue in Canada.

David Killens's picture
@ Whitefire13

@ Whitefire13

"I’m assuming you meant the oil post since that’s a big issue in Canada."

Oil never entered my mind when I wrote that post.

My intent was to address what the interviewer expressed, morality in protecting others.

Is it moral to protect money-making institutions? Is it moral to protect those who lose their jobs because of changing market conditions? Which of those carries a higher moral imperative?

Whitefire13's picture
@David ... you know, I should

@David ... you know, I should have just been patient with you answering, sorry.

I “assumed”
-only made an “ass of me”

David Killens's picture
@ Whitewfire13

@ Whitewfire13

No problem. The issue stems from confusion. I have learned that it is basically impossible to convey a full message in just a few lines. It's on me Whitefire13.

Whitefire13's picture
https://www.innovativewealth

https://www.innovativewealth.com/inflation-monitor/what-products-made-fr...

I’m all for reduction of some oil product use. I see us moving in that direction. Cars are a huge example (emissions) or use of solar (awesome in most uses but I hate looking at those fuckin solar farms) - s of alberta “wind” can be used ...up where I am wind and solar doesn’t work - but natural gas is the cleanest. Iceland has thermal ...you get the idea...

When oil companies shut down, and producers...some will be standing (they have to). The question is - which ones? The Saudi, Venezuela or Canada? Who produces less co2 when gathering this particular product? Which political pocket gets the lining...a theocracy a democracy or an authoritarian regime?

algebe's picture
@Whitefire13: I hate looking

@Whitefire13: I hate looking at those fuckin solar farms

I find solar farms quite beautiful. I'd rather look at them than listen to a giant wind turbine all night and look at the piles of dead birds under them. Wind farms belong offshore on floating platforms where they can't slice and dice so many birds. I'm not sure about geothermal. New Zealand tried it without much success back in the 1960s, but maybe the technology has improved. I guess the idea of drilling holes in supervolcanoes makes me a little nervous. I think the safest option for clean energy until fusion power comes on line is nuclear.

Whitefire13's picture
@David... is it moral to

@David... is it moral to protect money-making institutions? Is it moral to protect those who lose their jobs because of changing market conditions? Which of those carries a higher moral imperative?

If a big business can’t make it with all the tax breaks (that’s how govt encourages them to do business) is it up to “the people” to also “pay them” to “pay the people”...nope

If a person loses their job (re Canada) and cant find another job in a year?!? Or go back to school and then access the workplace?!! (I’m not yelling). There are supports and programs available “by the people” (we all pay into) to help one another ...

The bigger moral imperative is being cartoonishly featured by “Mr Big Business himself” Trump. Because the bank bailout - did anyone get a “trickle” - didn’t quite get the message across.

Whitefire13's picture
One more comment...re: the

One more comment...re: the bank bailouts

Lots of moving parts in that one BUT you ever wonder why the govt didn’t bailout the homeowners instead of banks?

Real simple small part. Bank lends you money for property (they make a shitload of interest through the life of that mortgage). Gov’t “secures” it also (bank has property security and “taxpayer via govt” security. Bundles of properties are packaged for investing purposes (your property address, market value, what is owed & interest rate). Then investors “buy” a piece of that investment. Bank now gets more money off your mortgage. (I had a part in the bundling process).

Now these “reckless” mortgage policies wasn’t too provide affordable homes for everyone - it was to sell an “investment” product that would pay out a higher rate of interest down the road.

Well, Mr 7-11 who could finally “own” a house couldn’t afford it when the real “price” kicked in. Oops. Those “investments” tanked. The govt couldn’t bailout the homeowner (bank losses property) so they bailed out the investors in those products.

Subsidy is getting into “people’s” hands with this virus - maybe smaller BUT more spread out to almost all incl small business. I’m dying to see what the effect is going to be economically.

If there is a substantial “stability” because of this approach, we may see a better way of “govt” handing business with some of these large corps and banks...

boomer47's picture
@White

@White

Pretty amazing clip.

Who invented the 'joint stock' and zero liability companies? Which country first declared a that public companies are persons under the law, IE can own property AS A COMPANY.

I think initially Britain invented the joint stock company in the seventeenth century, But the the US was the first country whose courts ruled that a public company is legally a person in some specific ways.

Pretty sure that public companies are legally responsible to its stock holders, not to its workers nor to the community or even the country.

If You really want to understand about the contradictions and innate immoralities of capitalism, read the 'Communist Manifesto 'and 'Capital' . IMO Marx gave a brilliant analysis of western capitalism . BUT that his solutions have not actually worked anywhere yet .

'Capital' is available free on ebook form on The Internet archive.

https://archive.org

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Now we will all rise and sing a rousing chorus of 'The Red Flag' (sung to the tune of 'Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree)

"The Red Flag
Billy Bragg

The people's flag is deepest red
It shrouded oft our martyred dead
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their hearts' blood dyed in every fold
Then raise the scarlet standard high
Beneath its folds we'll live and die
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here
It waved above our infant might

When all ahead seemed dark as night
It witnessed many a deed and vow
We mustn't change it's color now

Raise the scarlet standard high
Beneath its folds we'll live and die
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here

It well recalls the triumphs past
It gives the hope of peace at last
The banner bright, the symbol plain
Of human right and human gain
Raise the scarlet standard high

Beneath its folds we'll…"

https://www.google.com.au/search?client=opera&hs=z0T&sxsrf=ALeKk02HwAaAh...

Source: LyricFind
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Whitefire13's picture
Yah Cranky ... as a person

Yah Cranky ... as a person try getting the same tax breaks as a “corp” :) but they get benefits as a “person” . Fucked up

boomer47's picture
@white

@white

"Yah Cranky ... as a person try getting the same tax breaks as a “corp” :) but they get benefits as a “person” . Fucked up"

You win a whole packet of Tim Tams for they pithiest explanation of a joint stock company this year.

The 'new' economic theory of Monetarism stared to replace the Keynesian economics I learned , in the 1970's

Come 2007 and the sub prime disaster. Under monetarist theory, failing companies, including banks, should be allowed to fail and the market allowed to find its own level. Not what happened----,

Countries all over the world, including mine, immediately reverted to classic Keynesian economics, by bailing out failing banks and I think car companies--- Governments are tools of the dominant power paradigms. In your society and in mine that's capitalism .

"Deutsche Bank's Torsten Sløk says that the distribution of household wealth in America has become even more disproportionate over the past decade, with the richest 10% of U.S. households representing 70% of all U.S. wealth in 2018, compared with 60% in 1989, according to a recent study by researchers at the Federal ...May 31, 2019

The richest 10% of households now represent 70% of all U.S. wealth ... "

see also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States

PLUS do yourself a favour and read TheCommunist Manifesto and Capital

The Manifesto is linked below and Capital is available free on the Internet Archive

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/

https://archive.org

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