EVIDENCE

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howejm3's picture
@Sheldon: "Torturing King

@Sheldon: "Torturing King David's new born baby to death over 7 days seems to fit the example. Any thoughts as to why a perfectly merciful deity that claims murder is objectively wrong would murder a new born baby because it was angry at the parents adultery?

What's objectively moral about that."

and

"Talking of dodging questions, are you going to tell us why according to your bible for your deity to commit and encourage murder if it is objectively immoral? Or are you saying murder is not objectively immoral? As you say, you can't have it both ways...Is it ever objectively moral to torture someone, let alone to torture them forever? The concept of hell may be a complete fiction, but is one of the most barbarically immoral fictions ever conceived."

God created. We sinned. God shows us the gravity of sin. God accepts the punishment for our sins upon Himself. We can be restored to relationship with Him. This is one consistent simple story. Murder is wrong. God uses the death penalty only in extreme circumstances.

You would actually need objective morality in order to thwart God in this. Let me put it in a question. Are you claiming that killing the child is objectively less moral than letting King David get away with it?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JF

@ JF
No Never, but your God did.
Is it morally ok to ask for 200 foreskins of slain men? Then rejoice when you get 2000?

Fucking idiot questions.

Sheldon's picture
Well according to the

Well according to the Christian bible yes. Your deity did it after all. Just to prove a point to it's parents about how he felt about adultery.

You can't have it both ways.

My secular morals are appalled by this, can you say the same? If so what does that say about your deity's morality, if not then so much for your claim for objective morality.

howejm3's picture
@Sheldon: "My secular morals

@Sheldon: "My secular morals are appalled by this, can you say the same? If so what does that say about your deity's morality, if not then so much for your claim for objective morality."

If taken in complete absence of the justification, yes I would be appalled. Every life is sacred because every human bears the image of God.

Help me understand: why are your secular morals appalled by this?

howejm3's picture
The formal argument for the

The formal argument for the above is the following.

1. Every law has a law giver.
2. There is an objective moral law.
3. There is an objective moral law giver.

The best explanation for item 3 is God.

Sapporo's picture
To begin with, what is the

To begin with, what is the proof for 1? This asserts there must be a law giver if there is a law, which is not falsifiable.

algebe's picture
@Jesus Follower: formal

@Jesus Follower: formal argument

No. That's just three wild assumptions with no evidence for any of them.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JF

@ JF

I did say "original" so far you've brought absolute bollocks to the table. Please read Sheldon, Nyar, Tm and others on the same subject then come up with something.

Try this : 6 reasons objective morality does not exist., it is in the "see all" forums

Might save you hours of brain ache.

(Edited to add links.)

Sushisnake's picture
Nope, every law does NOT have

Nope, every law does NOT have A law giver, every law has a bunch of 'em. Every law is reached by consensus. One or more write it, one or more propose it, one or more review it, one or more pass it, one or more enforce it, six or more obey it.

Every law is a fine example of subjective morality.

Sheldon's picture
The formal argument for the

"The formal argument for the above is the following."

1. Every law has a law giver.
2. There is an objective moral law.
3. There is an objective moral law giver.
--------------------------------------------
1. Begging the question, logical fallacy. LOOK IT UP PEOPLE...
2. Evidence for that please.
3. ...and that

"The best explanation for item 3 is God."

You haven't yet evidenced claim 2, dealt with the logical fallacy in 2, or evidenced claim 3. You're putting your asthmatic wheezy horse behind your cart. Scientific laws like legal laws are man made, we created them to explain how reality functions. Assuming they need a creator (law giver) is begging the question as you're asserting the thing your arguing for in your argument.

Why don't theists know what common logical fallacies are, and what they mean for arguments?

Also why is this in the thread for objective Evidence, and not in the thread for arguments? Come on people....

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
1. Something that conform to

If those ramblings were accepted, We could translate as:

1. Something that conform to the laws of nature and reality.
2. Same as 1.
3. Same as 1.

Something that dose not conform to the laws of nature and reality.

Try again.

Sheldon's picture
It seemed to me more like:

It seemed to me more like:

1. I want to believe X
2. I also want to believe Y
3. Therefore I'll assume this makes it rational to assert Z.

I have arbitrarily and subjectively decided that Z is evidence of my chosen version of my my chosen deity.

Presented in a thread for objective evidence after 7 or is it 8 pages of explaining that arguments and assertions are not evidence, you almost want to give up.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jesus Follower - The formal

Jesus Follower - The formal argument for the above is the following.

1. Every law has a law giver.
2. There is an objective moral law.
3. There is an objective moral law giver.

That isn't an argument, it is 3 postulates. Worse still; convincing arguments rely on logical conclusions drawn from non-controversial postulates. Those postulates are controversial to say the least (and I think I'm being generous by calling them controversial); so the likelihood of you actually crafting a convincing argument with those pieces you posted it not good (imo).

Sapporo's picture
Saying that every law has a

Saying that every law has a law giver is essentially the same as saying they everything that exists has a creator, which obviously cannot be true.

SUPERNOVA's picture
@Algebe Hmmm! Where do i get

@Algebe Hmmm! Where do i get started? The facts that you were taught to believe in something you've never seen or touched doesn't make you right. Let's put this together. If you were a GOD would you let your creatures run around harming each other? or would you spread the love within each one of them instead, Where there's no place for hate or suffer? Im pretty sure you'll go with the second option.

Which make you think. Well there's something i didn't know! We are talking about logical evidence from a scientific community that proofs lithely anything that moves or seen on or outside planet earth.

Let me put it to you this way and it might dazzle you a little bit to think outside of the box.

Back in the Jesus Christ and Mohammed or any of the prophets periods. There was something called lackof believing! People were lost as there was no technology or something to guide them and those people were taking advantage of by those who claims to be GODS and PROPHETS.

If a magician today used those tricks back then he would be a GOD to them. People would lithely believing in anything.

Another example! You heard the story of Moses and how he split the red sea? Not true and here's why:

To explain how he SPLIT the red sea for his people to pass. There's something called High tide and low tide and Moses used knowledge of tides.

If you got any question feel free to ask!

Nyarlathotep's picture
SUPERNOVA - There's something

SUPERNOVA - There's something called High tide and low tide and Moses used knowledge of tides.

If you got any question feel free to ask!

Just one question: what makes you think Moses was a real person?

SUPERNOVA's picture
I don't believe in Moses nor

I don't believe in Moses nor anyone! I used the old testament as an example of what it was like to believe in something you'be never seen before in this case im talking about people from Moses, Ibrahim, Jesus and Muhammad period.

Nothing proofs that Moses was a real person nor Muhammad or Jesus! The only thing i believe in is what i see now!

Have a lovely weekend :-)

Tin-Man's picture
I'm trying to figure out why

I'm trying to figure out why Supernova aimed that at Algebe. Did I miss something? *scratching head*

Sushisnake's picture
Simple human error, Tin Man.

Simple human error, Tin Man. Right argument, wrong opponent. ☺

Tin-Man's picture
@Sushi Re: "Simple human

@Sushi Re: "Simple human error, Tin Man. Right argument, wrong opponent. ☺"

Ah. Swing-and-a-miss! LOL

algebe's picture
@Supernova There's something

@Supernova There's something called High tide and low tide and Moses used knowledge of tides.

It's worse than that, Supernova. There's no real evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, or that Moses actually existed. The story is ludicrous. Imagine a column of over a million people plus livestock suddenly marching out into the desert and surviving there for 40 years. And nobody in Egypt wrote anything down about this event.

SUPERNOVA's picture
@Algebe Exactly! You can't

@Algebe Exactly! You can't rely on the old testaments that have no evidence of the existence of Moses nor the Israelites were ever in Egypt. This is what is wrong with the world today. Telling stories without evidence to back it up. Glad we have video tape technology otherwise the new generation would be lost 50 years from now.

Sky Pilot's picture
Algebe,

Algebe,

The Israelites may not have been in Egypt "Egypt" but the Egyptians were in Israel. The Levant area was part of the ancient Egyptian Empire. The Exodus is most likely about when the Egyptians were kicked out of the Levant. So the Israelites didn't leave Egypt; the Egyptians left the Israelites. https://www.ancient.eu/image/538/

BTW, the story about Aaron making the golden calf was about the Israelites reverting to worshiping the Egyptian gods, specifically the goddess Hathor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor. In the biblical story as soon as the Israelites left they wanted to go back and get on Egyptian welfare.

Sky Pilot's picture
SUPERNOVA,

SUPERNOVA,

The story about "Moses" parting the Red Sea is a stylized war story, like Noah's flood. It most likely refers to the loss of Egyptian control of the Levant and the Red Sea becoming the limit of Egypt's power in the area.
https://www.ancient.eu/image/538/

SUPERNOVA's picture
The 2 are kinda similar but

@Diotrephes

The 2 are kinda similar but totally different.

I remember the first time i heard about Noah's Ark story which it was back in 1999. Had a study in class about it which i went home after and looked for it in my father's collection of Islamic books since we didn't had any internet home back then and it was pretty expensive. as well as it was mentioned in the Quran many times "The Great Flood" Surah Nuh "71"

http://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/flood1-t-quran/

I was a kid back then and it wasn't easy for me to believe in anything unless it comes with evidence. I was too stubborn, asking too many questions about Islam etc...!! Nuh story or as you might call him Noah never dazzled me in fact it made me more suspicious about it and raised more question which i ended up getting beaten up by teachers whenever i ask about the true source of every story i hear.

BTW, I know the Quran back to front and mostly all parts of it asks Muslims to kill in the name of GOD, It's either you convert to Islam or either you die or pay and leave. I wonder why everyone's defending that Quran saying it doesn't say those things! LOL

Most of them they've never opened the Quran and probably read only the first page!

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/forced-conversion.aspx

Sky Pilot's picture
SUPERNOVA,

SUPERNOVA,

The Koran and the Old Testament are very similar in basic belief structure. The main difference is that the Old Testament is racist and ethnocentric in its doctrine. The Koran has the most of the intolerant parts but it's less racist and anyone can join the religion. Their most common point is that they follow the First and Second Commandments without deviation.

Exodus 34:12-17 (TLB) = 12 “Be very, very careful never to compromise with the people there in the land where you are going, for if you do, you will soon be following their evil ways. 13 Instead, you must break down their heathen altars, smash the obelisks they worship, and cut down their shameful idols. 14 For you must worship no other gods, but only Jehovah, for he is a God who claims absolute loyalty and exclusive devotion.

15 “No, do not make a peace treaty of any kind with the people living in the land, for they are spiritual prostitutes, committing adultery against me by sacrificing to their gods. If you become friendly with them and one of them invites you to go with him and worship his idol, you are apt to do it. 16 And you would accept their daughters, who worship other gods, as wives for your sons—and then your sons would commit adultery against me by worshiping their wives’ gods. 17 You must have nothing to do with idols."

The Jews and the Arabs have been collaborating together against the Christians since around 600 A.D. You can easily intermix garbage from the Jewish Babylonian Talmud and say that it came from the Koran.

SUPERNOVA's picture
Well yeah i know they are

Yeah i know they are similar. The Quran includes The old Testament, Bible, Zabur and Torah was written pretty much differently by Muhammad. I don't believe that he was Illiterate. LOL

I will be posting evidence that he was fake as much as Quran in the near future as im just pretty much packed with work and plans to move somewhere safe and i'll be more than happy to share with you all my thoughts.

Sky Pilot's picture
SUPERNOVA,

SUPERNOVA,

Do you know when the Koran was organized into numbered chapters and verses like the Bible?

SUPERNOVA's picture
According to my knowledge and

According to my knowledge and what i studied in the school of Quran, It all started in 10/8/610 "I had to convert it from Hijri calendar" when Muhammaed claimed to be a prophet sent from GOD telling a story that Gabriel appeared to him in a cave. He was 40 at that time, revelation lasted for about 23 years.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SUPERNOVA

@ SUPERNOVA

Its polite to let everyone know when you have edited a post after publishing it

e.g ( edited for clarity, or *line edited") Some theists here have been caught post publishing editing to deny their positions.

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