Evolution
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@Cog
Thanks for the info about the different techniques of datation. I don't know about more than a few of then.
@Talyyn: I could not recite them, I just know everything is cross checked many times over with various dating methods. I had to look them up. No one just uses Carbon 14. I know you have to date the item, the ground around the item, other items found with the item you are dating, and if you do not get corroboration, your findings will not hold up. In short: I know that dating anything is a science and as such any date is subject to review. challenges, and of course debunking. When a date holds up in the scientific community, it has been thoroughly checked and rechecked.
Okey. Even for me I have to actually think ( hard) about it, for example, i looked to the wikipedia article on termoluminescence... and I was like... so what???? I came to an university site to have more deep information. I did that too for dendochronology ( you wrote endochronology in your post so the web gave me "endocrinology" results instead!!!
I've found a site about the site of the institute for creation research... they attempt to show the flaws about theses techniques ( as if the people who work with them don't know about it), and it was hilarious!
If the page is still up, Arsewater in Genesis has an article by the hilariously named Mike Riddle, in which he lied about Willard Libby's contribution to the rigour of carbon-14 dating. I found that in 2011, and immediately smelt the pungent tang of bullshit emanating therefrom. After a spot of fact checking, I was able to destroy that scurrilous little screed.
If that page is still there, it merely demonstrates how willing creationists are to lie for their doctrine.
Back in the days of the now defunct Richard Dawkins Forums, there was a huge thread demolishing creationist bullshit, and various pieces of creationist wankery about dating methods were subject to ruthless carpet bombing therein. "Why do the curves agree?" became something of a meme in that thread.
Oh, there's also varve counting from Lake Suigetsu to factor into the equation, along with ice core data from Antarctica. Which, along with dendrochronology and certain other relevant methods, all yield essentially the same calibration curves, despite being independent sources of data.
Even when it contradicts the bible?
Ahem....
Creatards are so biased blinkered and closed minded it ceased to be entertaining watching them peddle their superstitious wares a long time ago.
It's still mildly amusing watching them churn out the same old creationist canards about evolution though. Why they think this would validate the woo woo magic behind creationism is still baffling.
@ You know
I have no idea on your motives, but I will err on the good side and assume you are full of hope and positive energy, and hope to discuss some things you believe are all talking points. Unfortunately, many in here have seen the same fallacies too many times.
I humbly suggest that before you open a can or worms, check it out first. The "watchmaker fallacy" is one. And if you propose Pascal's wager, make sure you are wearing a helmet and jocksrap.
I think you will be hard pressed to find a non-believer who thinks Jesus was resurrected.
You know, you wrote, “I’m sorry man but Historians agree (believers and non believers) that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected”
Please name ONE non believer who agrees that jesus was resurrected.
This is bullshit plain and simple, as anyone who has ever bothered to study information in a proper, rigorous context knows only too well.
Let's deal with this drivel once and for all, shall we?
The infamous canards surrounding "information".
Now this is a particularly insidious brand of canard, because it relies upon the fact that the topic of information, and its rigorous analysis, is replete with misunderstanding. However, instead of seeking to clarify the misconceptions, creationist canards about information perpetuate those misconceptions for duplicitous apologetic purposes. A classic one being the misuse of the extant rigorous treatments of information, and the misapplication of different information treatments to different situations, either through ignorance, or wilful mendacity. For example, Claude Shannon provided a rigorous treatment of information, but a treatment that was strictly applicable to information transmission, and NOT applicable to information storage. Therefore, application of Shannon information to information storage in the genome is a misuse of Shannon's work. The correct information analysis to apply to storage is Kolmogorov's analysis, which erects an entirely different measure of information content that is intended strictly to be applicable to storage. Mixing and matching the two is a familiar bait-and-switch operation that propagandists for creationist doctrine are fond of.
However, the ultimate reason why creationist canards about information are canards, is simply this. Information is NOT a magic entity. It doesn't require magic to produce it. Ultimately, "information" is nothing more than the observational data that is extant about the current state of a system. That is IT. No magic needed. Indeed, one of the foundational principles that arises from properly constructed, rigorous information theory, is that because information is nothing more than the observational data informing us of the current state of a physical system of interest, then the moment the state of that physical system changes, new information is generated BY DEFINITION [1]. So creationist bullshit about "information" is flushed down the toilet by proper, rigorous information theory, even before we move on to more in-depth consideration of the relationship between state data and interactions with a system in a given state. Which, of course, was the concept covered by Alan Turing, in his seminal paper On Computable Numbers, With An Application To The Entscheidungsproblem. This relationship I shall now devote some time to.
All that happens, in real world physical systems, is that different system states lead to different outcomes when the interactions within the system take place. Turing alighted upon this notion when he wrote the above-cited landmark paper, and used the resulting theory to establish that Hilbert's conjecture upon decidability in formal axiomatic systems was false. Of course, it's far easier to visualise the process at work, when one has an entity such as a Turing machine to analyse this - a Turing machine has precise, well-defined states, and precise, well-defined interactions that take place when the machine occupies a given state. But this is precisely what we have with DNA - a system that can exist in a number of well-defined states, whose states determine the nature of the interactions that occur during translation, and which result in different outcomes for different states. Indeed, the DNA molecule plays a passive role in this: its function is simply to store the sequence of states that will result, ultimately, in the synthesis of a given protein, and is akin to the tape running through a Turing machine. The real hard work is actually performed by the ribosomes, which take that state data and use it to bolt together amino acids into chains to form proteins, which can be thought of as individual biological 'Turing machines' whose job is to perform, mechanically and mindlessly in accordance with the electrostatic and chemical interactions permitting this, the construction of a protein using the information arising from DNA as the template. Anyone who thinks magic is needed in all of this, once again, is in need of an education.
As for the canard that "mutations cannot produce new information", this is manifestly false. Not only does the above analysis explicitly permit this (along with that foundational principle I was careful to expound in the second paragraph above, denoted as [1]), the production of new information (in the form of new states occupied by DNA molecules) has been observed taking place in the real world and documented in the relevant scientific literature. If you can't be bothered reading any of this voluminous array of scientific papers, and understanding the contents thereof, before erecting this particularly moronic canard, then don't bother erecting the canard in the first place, because it will simply demonstrate that you are scientifically ignorant.
Indeed, the extant literature not only covers scientific papers explicitly dealing with information content in the genome, such as Thomas D. Schneider's paper handily entitled Evolution And Biological Information to make your life that bit easier, but also papers on de novo gene origination, of which there are a good number, several of which I have presented in the past in various forums. The mere existence of these scientific papers, and the data that they document, blows tiresome canards about "information" out of the water with a nuclear depth charge. Post information canards at your peril after reading this.
Whilst dwelling on information, another creationist canard also needs to be dealt with here, namely the false conflation of information with ascribed meaning. Which can be demonstrated to be entirely false by reference to the following sequence of hexadecimal bytes in a computer's memory:
81 16 00 2A FF 00
To a computer with an 8086 processor, those bytes correspond to the following single machine language instruction:
ADC [2A00H], 00FFH
To a computer with a 6502 processor, those bytes correspond to the following machine language instruction sequence:
CLC
ASL ($00,X)
LDX #$FF
BRK
To a computer with a 6809 processor, those bytes correspond to the following machine language instruction sequence:
CMPA #$16
NEG $2AFF
NEG ??
the ?? denoting the fact that for this processor, the byte sequence is incomplete, and two more bytes are needed to supply the address operand for the NEG instruction.
Now, we have three different ascribed meanings to one stream of bytes. Yet, none of these ascribed meanings influences either the Shannon information content, when that stream is transmitted from one computer to another, or the Kolmogorov information content when those bytes are stored in memory. Ascribed meaning is irrelevant to both rigorous information measures. As is to be expected, when one regards information content simply as observational data about the state of the system (in this case, the values of the stored bytes in memory).
Indeed, it is entirely possible to regard ascribed meaning as nothing other than the particular interactions driven by the underlying data, once that data is being processed, which of course will differ from processor to processor. Which means that under such an analysis, even ascribed meaning, which creationists fallaciously conflate with information content, also requires no magical input. All that is required is the existence of a set of interactions that will produce different outcomes from the different observed states of the system (with the term 'observation' being used here sensu lato to mean any interaction that is capable of differentiating between the states of the system of interest). Again, all familiar to anyone who has read both Turing's paper, and the work of people such as Kolmogorov and Chaitin. Furthermore, the fact that the Kolmogorov-Chaitin measure of information content is intimately tied to the Turing Halting Problem, on its own tells us that "information", far from being a magic entity, is nothing more than state data. The above exposition with respect to different processor sets acting on the same data, also informs us neatly that ascribed meaning is, at bottom, nothing more than the result of a given processor's architecture acting upon the state data presented thereto. Ultimately, your symbol-state table determines the meaning you will ascribe to a given data stream.
Once again, Game Over.
And now, it's time to flush this piece of creationist drivel down the toilet, viz:
Oh wait, there are numerous scientific papers, covering not only the origin of nucleic acids via testable natural processes (apparently our latest creationist has forgotten the elementary fact that DNA is a chemical molecule, and therefore subject to the usual rules of chemical reactions with regard to synthesis and its interactions), but covering in addition, wait for it, the evolvability of the genetic code. Let's take a look at some of those papers, shall we?
Here's a little list of relevant citations from said literature (and be advised, a LOT more papers in this vein have been added, since I first compiled this list way back in 2011):
[1] A Co-Evolution Theory Of The Genetic Code by J. Tze-Fei Wong, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 72(5): 1909-1912 (May 1975)
[2] A Mechanism For The Association Of Amino Acids With Their Codons And The Origin Of The Genetic Code by Shelley D. Copley, Eric Smith & Harold J. Morowitz, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 102(12): 4442-4447 (22nd March 2005)
[3] An Expanded Genetic Code With A Functional Quadruplet Codon by J. Christopher Anderson, Ning Wu, Stephen W. Santoro, Vishva Lakshman, David S. King & Peter G. Schultz, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 101(20): 7566-7571 (18th May 2004)
[4] Collective Evolution And The Genetic Code by Kalin Vetsigian, Carl Woese and Nigel Goldenfeld, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 103(28): 10696-10701 (11th July 2006)
[5] Emergence Of A Code In The Polymerization Of Amino Acids Along RNA Templates by Jean Lehmann, Michael Cibils & Albert Libchaber, PLoS One, 4(6): e5773 (3rd June 2009) DOI:10.1371/journal.pone.0005773
[6] Encoding Multiple Unnatural Amino Acids Via Evolution Of A Quadruplet Decoding Ribosome by Heinz Neumann, Kaihang Wang, Lloyd Davis, Maria Garcia-Alai & Jason W. Chin, Nature, 464: 441-444 (18th March 2010)
[7] Evolution And Multilevel Optimisation Of The Genetic Code by Tobias Bollenbach, Kalin Vetsigian & Roy Kishony, Genome Research (Cold Spring Harbour Press), 17: 401-404 (2007)
[8] Evolution Of Amino Acid Frequencies In Proteins Over Deep Time: Inferred Order Of Introduction of Amino Acids Into The Genetic Code by Dawn J. Brooks, Jacques R. Fresco, Arthur M. Lesk & Mona Singh, Molecular & Biological Evolution, 19(10):1645-1655 (2002)
[9] Evolution Of The Aminoacyl-tRNA Synthetases And The Origin Of The Genetic Code by R. Wetzel, Journal of Molecular Evolution, 40: 545-550 (1995)
[10] Evolution Of The Genetic Code: Partial Optimization Of A Random Code For Robustness To Translation Error In A Rugged Fitness Landscape by Artem S Novozhilov, Yuri I Wolf and Eugene V Koonin, Biology Direect, 2: 24 (23rd October 2007) DOI:10.1186/1745-6150-2-24
[11] Exceptional Error Minimization In Putative Primordial Genetic Codes by Artem S Novozhilov & Eugene V. Koonin, Biology direct, 4(1): 44 (2009)
[12] Expanding The Genetic Code Of Escherichia coli by Lei Wang, Angsar Brock, Brad Herberich & Peter G. Schultz, Science, 292: 498-500 (20th April 2001)
[13] Experimental Rugged Fitness Landscape In Protein Sequence Space by Yuuki Hayashi, Takuyo Aita, Hitoshi Toyota, Yuzuru Husimi, Itaru Urabe & Tetsuya Yomo, PLoS One, 1(1): e96 (2006) DOI:10.1371/journal.pone.0000096
[14] Importance Of Compartment Formation For A Self-Encoding System by Tomoaki Matsuura, Muneyoshi Yamaguchi, Elizabeth P. Ko-Mitamura, Yasufumi Shima, Itaru Urabe & Tetsuya Yomo, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 99(11): 7514-7517 (28th May 2002)
[15] On The Origin Of The Genetic Code: Signatures Of Its Primordial Complementarity In tRNAs And Aaminoacyl-tRNA Synthetases by S. N. Rodin and A. S. Rodin, Heredity, 100: 341-355 (5th March 2008)
[16] Origin And Evolution Of The Genetic Code: The Universal Enigma by Eugene V. Koonin & Artem S. Novozhilov, IUBMB Life, 61(2): 99-111 (February 2009) (Also available at arXiv)
[17] Protein Evolution With An Expanded Genetic Code by Chang C. Liu, Antha V. Mack, Meng-Lin Tsao, Jeremy H. Mills, Hyun Soo Lee, Hyeryun Choe, Michael Farzan, Peter G. Schultz & Vaughn V. Smider, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 105(46): 17688-17693 (18th November 2008)
[18] Protein Stability Promotes Evolvability by Jesse D. Bloom, Sy T. Labthavikul, Christopher R. Otey & Frances H. Arnold, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 103(15): 5869-5874 (11th April 2006)
[19] Reassigning Cysteine In The Genetic Code Of Escherichia coli by Volker Döring and Philippe Marlière, Genetics, 150: 543-551 (October 1998)
[20] Recent Evidence For Evolution Of The Genetic Code by Syozo Osawa, Thomas H, Jukes, Kimitsuna Watanabe & Akira Muto, Microbiological Reviews, 56(1): 229-264 (March 1992)
[21] Rewiring The Keyboard: Evolvability Of The Genetic Code by Robin D. Knight, Stephen J. Freeland & Laura F. Landweber, Nature Reviews Genetics, 2: 41-58 (January 2001)
[22] Thawing The Frozen Accident by C. W. Carter Jr., Heredity, 100: 339-340 (13th February 2008)
[23] A Simple Model Based On Mutation And Selection Explains Trends In Codon And Amino-Acid Usage And GC Composition Within And Across Genomes by Robin D. Knight, Stephen J. Freeland & Laura F. Landweber, Genome Biology, 2(4): research0010.1–0010.13 (22nd March 2001)
Let's take a look at some of these papers in more detail, shall we? First, the PNAS paper by Wong:
In more detail, the author opens with the following:
The rest of the paper can be read in full by downloading the PDF from here.
Moving on, let's look at the Copley ,em>et al paper, which can be downloaded from here. This opens as follows:
The authors continue thus:
Once again, I'll let everyone read the full paper at leisure, as it's a fairly large and complex one. :)
Moving on, we have the Vetsigian et al paper, which is downloadable from here. This paper opens as follows:
The authors continue with:
I'll break off from here, because this paper is very heavy with respect to mathematical content, and some of the relevant expressions are extremely difficult to render in board tags. However, this paper should prove interesting to read.
Next, we have the Lehmann et al paper, which can be downloaded from here. This opens as follows:
The authors continue with:
Next, we have the Brooks et al paper, which can be downloaded in full from here. The authors begin with:
I'll move quickly on, and cover in slightly more detail the Novozhilov et al (2007) paper, which opens as follows:
Again, this paper involves some heavy mathematics, and a rather involved computer simulation, so I'll jump straight to the discussion and conclusion:
Needless to say, the rest of the papers in my above list are freely downloadable via Google Scholar, and also contain much of interest to the serious student of this topic.
Again ... Game Over.
Meanwhile, it's time to carpet bomb this piece of bullshit back to the Stone Age ...
Oh dear. This is a piece of ex recto creationist bullshit I regard with special contempt, as shall be seen when I shred it. Viz:
Let's deal with the "atheists believe something out of nothing" canard once and for all, shall we?
Item one: Atheists dispense with belief altogether. Instead, if they're contemplating a postulate properly, they ask "what evidence exists in support of this postulate?", and look to whichever discipline is supplying the evidence.
Item two: the people who REALLY think the universe came from "nothing", are those supernaturalists who think their imaginary magic man from their favourite mythology, waved his magic todger and poofed the universe into existence from nothing. So even before I move on to the next items, this alone stuffs the "atheists think the universe came from nothing" excrement down the toilet and pulls the flush hard.
Item three: The question of the origin of the universe has nothing to do with atheism. This question is the remit of cosmological physics. And, once again, those of us who paid attention in class, turn to that discipline, and ask what postulates arise therefrom, and what evidence is supplied in support thereof.
Item four: No cosmological physicist presents the fatuous notion that the universe "came from nothing". Instead, cosmological physicists postulate that testable natural processes, acting upon well defined entities, were responsible for the origin of the observable universe in its current form.
Item five: The question of the origin of the universe is an active research topic, and as a corollary, a number of hypotheses are extant in the field, with respect to the origin of the observable universe. Indeed, it's a measure of how far cosmological physics has progressed, that researchers in the field are able to postulate a number of pre-Big-Bang cosmologies, and then work out how to test those cosmologies and the hypotheses underpinning them.
Item six: As an example of the ideas extant in the literature, I'm aware of two papers by Steinhardt & Turok, in which they propose a pre-Big-Bang cosmology centred upon braneworld collisions, and which possesses three elegant features. Namely:
[1] It provides a mechanism for the donation of energy to the newly instantiated universe, facilitating subsequent matter synthesis;
[2] It eliminates the singularity problem from standard Big Bang cosmology;
[3] It provides a testable prediction, namely that the power spectrum of primordial gravitational waves will take a specific form, with the graph skewed towards short wavelengths.
Indeed, [3] above is one of the reasons scientists have been labouring diligently, to produce operational gravitational wave detectors, precisely so that they can test this prediction, once they've learned how to distinguish between primordial gravitational waves and gravitational waves of more recent origin. The moment they learn to do this, the requisite tests will be conducted. Furthermore, if those tests reveal a power spectrum that *matches* the Steinhardt-Turok prediction, then Steinhardt & Turok walk away with the Nobel Prize for Physics.
Message to all you supernaturalists out there: read the above, and learn from it. The next time you peddle the "atheists think the universe came from nothing" bullshit, you'll know from the above why we regard you with scorn and derision for posting this bullshit.
Again ... Game Over.
And while I'm still awake ...
The creationist "kinds" fiction is precisely that - FICTION.
No two creationists have ever been able to agree what constitutes a "kind", or provide a proper, rigorous definition for this ludicrous term.
On the other hand, biologists have several rigorous definitions for "species", encompassing different aspects of the nature thereof, of which the biological species concept has been the most rigorously applicable to modern biology. So until there is something other than hot air from creationists on this matter, I'll treat "kinds" as another ex recto creationist assertion.
I'm late to the party...Um it seems the new year begins well. And look at the pseudonym: "You know". Theists always baffles me by their hubris.
Guys and gals
You are literally brilliant!
Imagine if you put this kind of effort into proving Gods existence
It’s cool cuz we all use the same evidence to come up with different theories
Christianity has withstood the test of time, at least the main point of it (nicene creed)
I believe that people like you (scientists) are eventually going to prove Gods existence.
If you believe in the Bible and Jesus, all the horrible and crazy things that happen in the world today make sense and can be explained.
I’m praying for all of you.
@ You know
"Imagine if you put this kind of effort into proving Gods existence"
I was raised in a christian family, my father a Mason, my mother Eastern Star. Every Sunday morning we spent in church. All around the house my parents scattered christian books, such as the tale of Joseph and his many colored robe. When I left home at 18, I stopped attending church only because I perceived it more as a social club than a place of worship. But I never stopped looking for something, anything spiritual. I searched, I prayed on my knees late at night in churches, I talked to theologians. And I did that for over forty years.
"You know", some of us have put in enormous effort in doing what you accuse us of shirking.
@ You know
"It’s cool cuz we all use the same evidence to come up with different theories"
I disagree.
Almost all atheists in here use proven and confirmed scientific facts, while you lean on just one old and questionable book. Our standards of evidence are much higher, and we do not casually discard proven scientific evidence because it interferes with our personal beliefs.
And you have proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that your scientific knowledge is severely deficient.
@You know: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha "Christianity has stood the test of time!" Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ..... What in the fuck are you calling Christian? To the Evangelics, Catholicism is a cult, the Mormons are all going to hell and everyone knows the JW don't even use a real bible. Pick any date or time and you will find one third of all Christians ready to send the other two thirds straight to hell. Christianity WITH IT'S 30,000 DIFFERENT SECTS is a CLUSTERFUCK.
Then that effort would have been as wasted as the 5,000 years of navel gazing on the part of supernaturalists that has failed to deliver on the matter.
Bullshit. You don't have a "theory", you have blind adherence to a made up shit mythology and its crass assertions.
Which might have something to do with the fact that in the world of science, a theory is about as far removed from "made up shit guess" as it's possible to be. In case you failed to learn this elementary concept in the requisite classes, a theory in science, is an integrated explanation for a class of entities and interactions of interest, which has been tested experimentally to determine its accord with observational data, and found via such testing to be thus in accord.
Since several mythological assertions are untestable even in principle, let alone in practice, that rules out your mythology as the basis for any genuine theory. As does the fact that the testable assertions contained in your mythology are mostly plain, flat, wrong, and in many cases, fatuous and absurd into the bargain.
Oh, and trying to force-fit data to mythological assertions isn't a use of evidence, but a misuse thereof. Quite simply, every time you and your ilk treat science as a branch of apologetics, you're being wilfully discoursively dishonest.
Bullshit. Your mythology contains numerous assertions that are not merely wrong in the light of modern scientific knowledge, but fatuous and absurd in said light. Your mythology was written by piss-stained Bronze Age incels who were too stupid to count correctly the number of legs that an insect possesses, and who thought genetics was controlled by coloured sticks. Furthermore, your mythology only achieved the hegemony it did, because of the willingness of its past adherents to lie and to kill. Its assertions are increasingly revealed to be a mixture of the absurd, the asinine and the iniquitous, and its adherents all too frequently exhibit a flord aetiology that combines hubris, entitlement, intellectual indolence, complacency and in some cases, a sociopathic level of absence of basic empathy, in a nauseatingly bubotic package.
Keep smoking those hallucinogens.
Here's a clue for you, in the form of an elementary concept that you manifestly never learned. When scientists establish that testable natural processes are sufficient to explain a given class of entities and interactions, then from that point on, so-called "supernatural" entities are superfluous to requirements and irrelevant. This has already happened for vast classes of entities and interactions, including classes thereof that the authors of your sad mythology were incapable of even fantasising about, but which scientists alighted upon and placed into usefully predictive, quantitative frameworks of knowledge. Scientists have been systematically tossing your worthless mythology, it's risible assertions and its imaginary magic man into the bin for 300 years.
Oh, and before you're tempted to travel down the requisite avenue of canards, the only reason some scientists in the past made unctuous noises about your magic man, was to avoid being burned at the stake like Giordano Bruno. In the modern era, free from the threat of being murdered by raving mythology fanboys, scientists are treating your mythology more and more as a pathetic irrelevance, as this article in Nature clearly demonstrates. The tiny number of prominent scientists who still make silly noises about an invisible magic man, are usually American, and in some cases doing so only because of the toxic, pathological influence mythology fanboyism wields over that nation. In properly constituted secular developed nations, this sort of behaviour is regarded, quite properly, as an amusing anomaly, though the malignant influence exerted by religion across the Atlantic is frequently anything but amusing.
Complete and utter poppycock. First of all, your mythology doesn't "explain" anything. It asserts much, but like every other mythology fanboy I've encountered, you manifestly need to learn the difference between mere assertion and genuine explanation.
Second, given that many of the requisite assertions have already been found to be complete hooey, the idea that this collection of assertions contains any useful knowledge about the operation of reality, is again a fantasy that only mythology fanboys could possibly entertain. Your mythology constitutes evidence for the following, and the following alone:
[1] The capacity of pre-scientific humans to engage in parochial, but ultimately unimaginative, fantasising;
[2] The gullibility of adherents of said mythology;
[3] The Machiavellian utility of said mythology as a tool of political control.
Though to be fair, your mythology isn't unique in any of these respects.
Ah, the synthetic pretence that talking to your imaginary magic man is going to achieve anything of substance.
Don't waste your time. Instead, start learning some actual facts, instead of filling your head with mythological drivel.
So we keep digging and digging and finding out where things come from. How a cell was created or what creates a cell
But is there ever an end to that?
Who or what created the very first building block of life and the universe?
Isn’t it always going to come back to that?
I’m confusing myself with this question lol
If there was nothing to begin with, how can matter arise from nothing?
Or was there always something
@ You know
"Who or what created the very first building block of life and the universe?"
You are poisoning the waters with your assumption that everything had to be created. My suggestion is that you begin with a clean sheet of paper, and instead ask the question: "where did it come from" instead of "what created everything"?
Just in case you are serious: because matter isn't a conserved quantity.
@You Know Re: "How a cell was created or what creates a cell"
Aw, you poor thing. Didn't your parents ever have "The Talk" with you? Oh, dear... Tsk-tsk-tsk... Well, pull up a chair, and Uncle Tin will bring you up to speed...
You see, it all starts with a boy cell and a girl cell. They meet one day and decide they really like each other. So they start going out to dinner and seeing movies together and buying all sorts of little gifts and things for each other. Until one day, they decide to get married, because they have totally fallen in love. Then, on the night of their wedding, they stay in a ridiculously over-priced hotel suite for their honeymoon. And it is there that they rub their bellies together for the very first time to show how much they truly love each other.
Well, a few weeks after that, the girl cell starts getting really sick in the mornings. A few days after that she gets a letter from the stork letting her know she and the boy cell will have a baby cell delivered to them in a few months. So the boy cell and girl cell get all excited and set out to buy all sorts of baby stuff while converting the guest bedroom into a nursery.
Then the big day arrives, and there is a knock on the front door. The boy and girl cells both rush to the door in joyful anticipation. Meanwhile, family and close friends wait around in the dining room eating snack foods and discussing visitation schedules. Upon opening the door, the boy and girl instantly become a mommy cell and daddy cell as they discover the basket on the steps with their new baby cell inside. (By the way, a pink bow on the basket means it is a girl cell, and a blue bow means it is a boy cell.)
And THAT, You Know, is how cells are created. Now, here's a banana. Take it to Uncle Cog and ask him to explain the belly rubbing ritual of the honeymoon night. Be advised, he may want you to sit on his lap while he tells you. Decline that offer.
@Tin,
I think we have this down now.
When I first started posting, I tried to be funny. They I saw your posts. Obviously, forum comedian was already taken.
Ok, how about religion history. Shit, Old Man has that nailed down.
How about detailed scientist. Then Cali comes along....
How about bitter curmudgeon, nope that's taken too. I won't name any names.
I got it, I'll be the one that points out all the logical fallacies. Goddammit Sheldon.
What's left???
I know, mockery. Hell, it comes natural to me anyway.
Therefore, I'm appointing myself as the official mocker from this point forward. I've taken this thread as my official starting point as we have a live one here that needs a healthy dose.
If the role of Father Mocker is already taken, I DON'T want to know about it.
@NewSkeptic Re: "I tried to be funny. They I saw your posts. Obviously, forum comedian was already taken."
...*holding hand out palm forward as a halt indicator*.... Whoa-whoa-whoa! Say what??? Back up there a sec. What do you mean the comedian position is taken by me? What the hell? You mean to tell me everybody here is laughing at me? Like I'm some sort of joke or something? Do I look funny to you somehow? You think I'm some sort of clown, maybe?... *shaking head in disbelief*... Well, ain't that just lovely?.. *resigned sigh*... Guess I'm gonna have to reevaluate my whole life now. Why didn't somebody tell me sooner?... *sniff-sob-sniff*... *tears pooling in eyes*... *removing large red clown nose to wipe away dripping snot*....
@Tin,
Easy there Pesci, I don't want to get murdered with a pen. I meant, like, the way you phrase things, you know, it's funny, not in a "you amuse me" sort of way. Shit, I'm just getting in deeper.
The position of comedian is the most valued one on the whole forum. If nothing else, it is vitally important we are able to laugh at the absurd ignorance of cretards like the OP here, for instance. You, Tinny, make that possible and I for one hold you in the highest regard (that is NOT mockery). Anyone can write 10,000 word dissertations like Cali, but it takes pure brilliance to make people laugh at others, and that is where you prevail.
Head up, no more tears, you know the ravages rust can have on someone like you.
The best comedy involves at least two, one a straight man. Abbot and Costello, Laurel and Hardy, Lewis and Martin. Of course we could go full Three Stooges.
@DK
In that case, we sure could use a Moe. I'll be Larry and Tin will be Shemp/Curly/Shemp/Joe/Curly Jo.
How about it DK, have you got the props to play Moe?? The main attributes, of course, are the bowl cut and a nasty disposition. Can you pull that off. If so, we've got something here.
@You Know: "How a cell was created or what creates a cell." I can put an end to it right now. WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU EVER GET THE IDEA A CELL WAS CREATED? Please demonstrate that a cell can be created,. Really stupid assumption.
Okay where does a cell come from?
Atoms right?
What created the atoms
Were they just always there?
Where did everything on the periodic table come from?
Was it just always there?
Where did the universe come from?
Was it just always there!
Does it have a beginning and an end or was it just always there?
In order to have a beginning doesn’t something have to take action?
That's an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, as not being able to explain something validates nothing. Also why do theists and creatards in particular use extra unnecessary line breaks? Lastly are you ever going to have the integrity to address the many refutations of your endless unevidenced claims?
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