Final Judgement

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Homer

@ Homer

And here is another example of your muddled even chaotic thought processes.

"Many Christians reject the concept of a tormenting hell even though it is in the Bible.

Really? How many? Have you counted them? Is that more than 3 or less than a billion?

It is like a reverse ad populum fallacy....where the populem cannot be verified.

So what if they reject just (or even) one of the concepts of hell that various 'christians' drool over , what difference does it make to the core delusion you share, or that you deny sharing?

You are really special Homer, really special if you think you are making any rational sense at all.

Sheldon's picture


1. My " evidence" suffices my belief for me.
a) That's true of all delusions, but since evidence consists of facts or information, please demonstrate yours? Otherwise you have no evidence.

2. A belief you can't rationalize. - I surely can't to your satisfaction, so? Yet I believe.
b) Logic doesn't validate to "my satisfaction", this demonstrates a woeful grasp of reason on your part, and the bias here is all yours. So it's very dishonest to pretend I am being biased here. Again the assertion you believe without any rational reason is precisely what I said, all you have done is prove my point.

3. I'm sorry if I don't align with all the Biblical teachings of Jesus when it comes to what I read in the Bible.
c) This rather misses the point, you claimed to be a christian and that Jesus was a good moral teacher, both of which are contradicted by the claim you don't agree with the biblical teachings of Jesus, and without any objective reason or method for your cherry picking?

4. A belief at odds with the doctrine of Christianity. I guess I don't conform to doctrines that have been instilled over 2000 years, with editing and picking and choosing what those men wanted to. I'll take that risk and believe how I believe.
d) Again this was rather MY point? You seem to be repeating them back to me?

The Lucas quote had no relevance on both the occasions you used, it was a red herring. You implied your beliefs are innocuous, and I used the Hitchens's quote because it directly addresses this oft used claim by religions, how many Muslims claim it is the religion of peace? As the Hitch said, "we have a right to remember how those religions behave when they are strong, and what they were offering is not a choice". Lucas's argument from assertion fallacy about his own belief is not remotely relevant.

Homer "Not that the deities were man made as much as man searches for his creator and creates his own description from his background."

Another unevidenced assertion, whereas the fact those deities and religions always accurately reflect the cultures morals and ignorance of the epochs they were created in, is very strong evidence they are in fact entirely man made.

Homer "You spoke of various deities and they all can't be right, and I'm saying they are man's differing conceptions of what the creator is."

Again this is an unevidenced assertion, whereas "the fact the "concept" of those deities and religions always accurately reflect the cultures morals and ignorance of the epochs they were created is very strong evidence they are in fact entirely man made."

Homer " I promise you my believing in a creator God and following teachings of Jesus to access that creator, even if I don't believe every teaching attributed to Jesus, especially about a punishment hell, I won't use my faith to harm a fly."

Well the entire point of the quote is the contrast of your claim, often made nowadays by religions and the religious, and the reality of how religions do behave, not just historically either.

CyberLN's picture
^ ^ ^ That!

^ ^ ^ That!

Homergreg's picture
1a.I've already supplied my

1a.I've already supplied my personal "evidence", and I accept it for my life. It exists in my being, I can't escape it, so I go with it. I choose to accept it, sorry. Call it cognitive dissonance, It doesn't change that I accept it. I tried rejecting it, it didn't work. I believe I explained that. We can make it 1abcdefghijk, it doesn't negate anything going on in my being when I act in faith.

2b. Yet I believe! See 1a.

3c. I did say I believe Jesus to be a good moral teacher and I try to follow his teachings so I would identify as a Christian as the closest thing I can come up with. You bring up the subject of a tormenting hell that is indeed ascribed to Jesus. I don't agree with that teaching. I'm rejecting it as something I'm going to follow. I'm not going to reject following his many other teachings for it. Call me a cherry picker, I really do not care. Call me a heretic, I really do not care, I believe how I believe.

4d. So the men who have edited the Bible get to cherry pick and edit it, but I have to accept their doctrine completely? Why? Because you say so? Why can't I look at those many doctrines, that vary depending on which denomination edited it and make my own? Do I have to bleat the tune of a particular sect to try to follow the teachings of Jesus that I happen to find good?

I promise I won't use that Lucas quote to assert anything to you any more.

Sheldon's picture


1. No you haven't, you have related subjective claims, evidence consist of facts or information, you have offered none. Just why you keep repeating this lie is baffling.
2. Again then, yes you do believe without any rational argument to support that belief. Simply repeating that you believe doesn't really address this fact, or what it means.
3. Again then, since you've missed the point, you are cherry picking which bits you want, and without any objective rationale.
4. It's odd but every time your biased cherry picking of your religion is pointed out, you try to dishonestly project that bias onto the person pointing it out? "Because you say so?". Like that, what an absurdly dishonest thing to say, did I write the fucking bible or decide what the core doctrinal teachings of christianity are? So no, not because I say so at all.

Homer "I promise I won't use that Lucas quote to assert anything to you any more."

You can use it to show that Lucas seems to have missed the irony of using an argument from assertion fallacy, while simultaneously lecturing others that they think they know more than they actually do. It would be perfect for that.

Homergreg's picture
I guess then that you are

I guess then that you are going to have questions about me that I'll never be able to answer. Maybe my brain is flawed in that I am unable to put into words answers to your questions. I apologize.

I still believe.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Homer

@ Homer

That's right. Exactly what I said to you many posts ago. Exactly what everyone else who responded to you tried to explain to you.

Except, no one has questions about you Homer.

You have "personal experience" (delusion). You are very "special".

That's it, end of topic.

Sheldon's picture
Your inability to rationally


Your inability to rationally defend your beliefs is indicative of something relevant, the fact you choose to ignore what it means and maintain an irrational belief is the point that everyone is making to you. Instead of debating that, why we're hear btw, instead you just endlessly repeat you believe, which has started sounding like a mantra, and now has all the hallmarks of an evasive technique, a type of defence mechanism.

Homergreg's picture
I came into this thread to

I came into this thread to provide an answer to the OP about theists who believe they might just be going to hell. I didn't post in this thread to start yet another debate about the rationality of a belief in God.

I wonder who decided to turn this into the debate he feels "we are all here" for? Are we here to turn every thread into some atheist vs theist duel to the core of faith? Really?

Cognostic's picture
@Homer: But it should be as

@Homer: But it should be as obvious to you as it is to us that you know absolutely nothing at all about theists. You have run off into la la land with your own version of everything. Why in the hell would anyone listen to you?

I know, I know, "Either they do or they don't. It's not my problem." TWAT!

Sheldon's picture


It's bizarre how often you simply repeat my posts back to me?

Sheldon "Your inability to rationally defend your beliefs is indicative of something relevant,....Instead of debating that, why we're hear btw, you just endlessly repeat you has all the hallmarks of an evasive technique, a type of defence mechanism."

Homer "I didn't post in this thread to start yet another debate about the rationality of a belief in God."

You need to grasp that in a debate, what you personally want from it may differ from what others who disagree with you may want.

Homer "Are we here to turn every thread into some atheist vs theist duel to the core of faith? Really?"

Well since this is an atheist debate forum, yes quite obviously. What on earth did you think would happen when you started making claims about your religious beliefs, we'd all link arms and start singing Kum Ba Yah?

...Our worldwide atheist forum provides a lively place for debate, support and conversation. We encourage discussion about any and all topics as long as it abides by our forum guidelines. You can ask questions, request input, present a challenging topic for debate or share an idea. We hope you will join our existing and growing community of atheists.

Tin-Man's picture
@Sheldon Re: The Dissection

@Sheldon Re: The Dissection

Damn... That was fantastic. Bravo! You have far more patience than I do, brother.

Whitefire13's picture
Every JW who died is just

Every JW who died is just “dead” (except the 144,000...a whole other story) BUT our punishment is the fuckin’ funeral.... it goes something like this

So-and-so was born in YEAR, married and had KIDS (or single) -maybe 5 minutes tops on the facts of their life (like anyone attending didn’t know) ... THEN the kicker (worldly people in attendance) ...
“They want us to share with you their “hope”...” now a 45 minute sermon on the resurrection.

Hell on earth is a ‘meeting’

Cognostic's picture
@Cyber: What I think is

@Cyber: What I think is funny about that is the criteria for getting into Heaven that not a Christian on the planet follows. They are all full of excuses like our wishy-washy friend Homer. "It just doesn't matter what the bible says.... You have to go with your feeling." Not if your God is real you don't/

The one time in the bible when Jesus was directly asked "What must I do to go to Heaven?" What was his reply!? It says it all. "I have not come to change the law but to fulfill it." What does Jesus himself say you must do? Come on, any theists out there know?

Homergreg's picture
I know what you are getting

I know what you are getting at, and I'm probably going to hell if it exists simply because I don't believe it exists as described.

As far as what Jesus said about getting into heaven:
"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

According to what Jesus said there I understand that any admittance to heaven is going to be via the "delusion" of faith in God.

Everyone goes for the rich man turning into some sort of monk part but they ignore the end of his teaching. I probably will go to hell, if it exists, for living in a house and owning a car if that conception is all that is true, but that makes absolutely no sense as what kind of world would exist where nobody has any possessions? Hopefully that "God making all things possible part" will come into play.

But then again I'm surely going to hell anyway for not believing it exists as some place of torment, so what the hell, maybe I'll go ahead and buy that Tesla.

And if God is real I have to go by the Bible as some hard fact document?? Says who? That book wasn't written by God, no matter how much fundamentalists say it was, it was written by people seeking God, and it's pretty apparent they were fallable.

Judge me for my beliefs? Go ahead. I'm just sharing mine and you can believe what you wish. People say I'm delusional for believing in God in the first place then they observe my delusion doesn't conform to some standard of delusion for some reason, not sure what that matters...

Cognostic's picture
@Homer: Well, you were

@Homer: Well, you were unable to answer the Biblical reference correctly but you did get the essence of the challenge. At any point in time 1/4 of any random group of Christians will swear to you that the other 3/4s are headed straight to hell for following false teachings. The church up the street is being influenced by false prophets and we know there will be many in the last days.

What did Jesus actually say when he was "directly asked" "What must I do to get to heaven?" The bible is very clear as to how a Christian must believe, how they are to behave, how they must think, and to what degree they must LOVE the LORD their GOD. If you followed the biblical instructions, you would be locked away with the rest of the loonies.

Homergreg's picture
Well to hell I go then!

Well to hell I go then!

CyberLN's picture
Homer, is that hell where you

Homer, is that hell where you want to go? If not, why are you behaving / thinking as you are?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Homer

@ Homer

Judge me for my beliefs? Go ahead. I'm just sharing mine and you can believe what you wish.

Exactly. I judge you delusional. Why? you have presented nothing except alleged, unverified "personal experience".

Exactly as every other committed theist I have ever met.

You are the definition of delusional. You hold a belief(s) without evidence.

Have a good life and try not to kill people when the voices tell you to...ok?

NewSkeptic's picture


We can discuss this more in hell when we both get there, but I wanted to point out just how poorly old George Lucas put his thoughts, as they were, together.

"I offer the same George Lucas quote:

"Well, I think there is a God. No question. What that God is, or what we know about that God I’m not sure."

Look at that again, I think there is a god, then "No Question". So he is claiming knowledge that a god exists.

Then he says he does not know what that god is. Do you not find that completely bizarre?

How can you claim to know something exists and then claim that you don't even know what it is?

If I were you, and wanted to sound the least bit intelligent, I would drop that quote from your repertoire. Your mileage may vary.

Homergreg's picture
Maybe I should tell old

Maybe I should tell old George about the fruit!

Sheldon's picture
@NewSkeptic "If I were you,

@NewSkeptic "If I were you, and wanted to sound the least bit intelligent, I would drop that quote from your repertoire."

That quote was embarrassing enough the first time he used it, I am amazed he is repeating it.

Homergreg's picture
I love that quote!

I love that quote!

Sheldon's picture
Homer "I love that quote!"

Homer "I love that quote!"

Of course you do, it contains a bare assertion about the existence of a deity.

Cognostic's picture
@Homer: RELAX, If George

@Homer: RELAX, If George has ever met you, he already knows about the fruit.

Whitefire13's picture
Hey Homer!!! Quick question.

Hey Homer!!! Quick question... in your mind’s religion, what are you allowed to do vs. not do?

Is your religion just “pray”?

Homergreg's picture
I pretty much do what most

I pretty much do what most anybody does in life as far as I know. I go to work, obey the law, spend time with my family. Probably just like most any other theist or atheist.

I happen to pray to God, I go to a relatively liberal church for my neck of my woods where many wouldn't agree with my views, but it's ok. Nobody's going to freak out about the guy that has moral issues with believing the Bible be taken as a history book.

Can you imagine a secular humanist in practice that happens to still believe in a creator, prays, and feels he gets a benefit from it? That's pretty much how I think I deal with the world.

Anything really wrong with that? Other than not agreeing with me on that belief or if the benefit really comes from within?

Cognostic's picture
@Homer: You are Lying to

@Homer: You are Lying to yourself. What does the Bible specifically say about interacting with non-believers?

A "Secular Humanist" can not believe in a creator, by definition. (SECULAR: denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.)

You mean a Theist Humanist. Most likely a person who understands the nature of morality and uses facts and evidence to derive moral opinions or principles and not the ancient outdated dictates or proclamations of an iron age magical universe creating deity or it's followers. (He would just be a Humanist.)

Homergreg's picture
I'm probably going to hell

I'm probably going to hell for another reason now!!!! Goodness I'm probably doing the crappiest job of believing in God and trying to follow Jesus' lead that ever drew a breath.

I can't even describe how I believe by combining the right words!!!

Damned by theology and semantics alike... Someone pity my immortal soul, or pitiful empty carcass, whatever the case may be.

Whitefire13's picture
Thanks for the answer. Lol

Thanks for the answer. Lol touchy end though...

“ Anything really wrong with that?
Nope. I was just wondering if anything was “not allowed” in your liberal church - that’s all.

“Other than not agreeing with me on that belief or if the benefit really comes from within”



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