Finding Noah for real?

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jdrose's picture
LOL Thanks! That article made

LOL Thanks! That article made my day. Birds of a feather in the same tree-house. So now you want to quibble over 50,000-200,000 years?Adam and Eve "invented embarassment" about 24,000 years ago but by Smithsonian standards that range is 24,000-96,000.
years ago which fits into your timeframe. Interesting to speculate. I like this intriguing link:

algebe's picture
"Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal and

"Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal and Homo-Erectus were contemporaries when THEY made Homo-Sapiens AKA Adam (which mean "man", "a man" and "mankind""

Cro-Magnons were the first homo sapiens in Europe. They weren't a separate species. Erectus was our direct ancestor. Neanderthal was a separate but close branch of the Homo family tree. They were contemporary, and there is some genetic evidence that we interbred, although that's controversial. (It's seems more plausible when I look at Arnold Scharzenegger.) They appear to have gone extinct around the time that Sapiens reached the Middle East and Europe. Is that the first case of genocide? All of these species were around long before the supposed date of the Garden of Eden myth.

Who are THEY? Have you seen 2001 Space Odyssey?

"We are all the result of "external" DNA incisions/interventions."

Where did you get that idea from? Is there any evidence of tampering with our genetic software? I remember a Star Trek TNG episode based on that idea. You do know that's fiction, don't you?

charvakheresy's picture

This is the funnies stuff I have ever read.

You mean to say that GOD the "All Knowing" had to make prototypes to test his invention out like any other human...... Are you sure your a christian.... Your ideas are Blasphemous..... For all you are saying you may as well be an ardent atheist.

jdrose's picture
I don't think we're in

I don't think we're in command of Star Fleet. We are their children. Maybe we are soon to join it?

Also, Earth is one of many places called "paradise".(Zohar) Every one is a rock surrounded by water with a firmament (atmosphere).

Why should there not be extra-terrestial life if there is life on Earth. Otherwise, the universe seems like a big waste of space, especially if we are the crowning achievement of evolution. Have you watched the news lately?


Attach Image/Video?: 

Sir Random's picture
Hey, guys:

Hey, guys:

"The Zohar (Hebrew: זֹהַר, lit. "Splendor" or "Radiance") is the foundational work in the literature of Jewish mystical thought known as Kabbalah.[1] It is a group of books including commentary on the mystical aspects of the Torah (the five books of Moses) and scriptural interpretations as well as material on mysticism, mythical cosmogony, and mystical psychology. The Zohar contains discussions of the nature of God, the origin and structure of the universe, the nature of souls, redemption, the relationship of Ego to Darkness and "true self" to "The Light of God", and the relationship between the "universal energy" and man. Its scriptural exegesis can be considered an esoteric form of the Rabbinic literature known as Midrash, which elaborates on the Torah."

It would seem this man/woman/thing is trying to sell (convince) us of the Torah(or its extension), and at lower than its bargain basement price!

Its a snake oil salesman! Take cover!

jdrose's picture
Wikipedia knows everything.

Wikipedia knows everything. lol. Kaballah is Rabbi commentary bunk taken from older teachings, because we, as a new species, were taught and cared for. (Did we just think up agriculture, cooking of meat, etc, or were we instructed?)

Look up the book of Enoch. It tells a lot of the crap going on before The Flood. The Hindu sagas retain the story of the fantastic starfleet wars that happened when the "Star Fleet Command Staff" returned to Earth and saw the results of their subordinates (also human) who stayed behind disobeyed the Prime Directive and were mating with Earth Women. They were horny. Can't blame them, but it was major f**k up.

Sir Random's picture
"Did we just think up

"Did we just think up agriculture, cooking of meat"


"The Hindu sagas retain the story of the fantastic starfleet wars that happened when the "Star Fleet Command Staff" returned to Earth and saw the results of their subordinates (also human) who stayed behind disobeyed the Prime Directive and were mating with Earth Women. They were horny. Can't blame them, but it was major f**k up."

Look, man. I don't know what your on, or how many "Ancient Aliens" episodes you've been watching, but religion seems tame compared to the shit your saying. Its not every day someone says something so far off the wall that religion seems right in the head, but you've done it.

jdrose's picture
Its not religion. Thank God.

Its not religion. Thank God. Historical record pieced together from remnant fragments.Occam's Razor. And look up Enoch. Especially the Ethiopian translation.Its pretty clear on teaching people farming via plant cuttings, etc.

Sir Random's picture
The Torah is a "holy book".

The Torah is a "holy book". Therefore, anytime it or parts of it are used to prove ANYTHING, religious or not, it is not to be trusted. If a book from the Torah is all you have, you have nothing.

charvakheresy's picture
BS - You are really clutching

BS - You are really clutching at straws here aren't you.,.... You included a mythology you understand very little about to support a ludicrous claim.

What does Hindu mythology have in common with the torah and your fantasy of being part of starlet enterprise?

Do you know of the Hindu texts, their significance in Hindu society?

Dave Matson's picture
I am beginning to detect the

I am beginning to detect the usual signs: 1) Unfocused and/or knee-jerk topic; 2) Scatterbrained thinking (Incomplete, cryptic remarks + Skipping around); 3) Poor to no communication; 4) Poor reasoning (jumps to conclusions and/or violates the rules of good reasoning; 5) Doesn't listen very well (no attempt to follow up on critical points.

Prognoses: Chances of getting a serious debate here are close to zero.

I am about ready to jump ship, already, but I'll tag along for a bit.

In Genesis "earth" referred to a pancake-shaped piece of land that sat on the face of the deep (the primeval waters). being upheld by pillars. It was capped by a solid, hemispherical dome (the vault of heaven) that held up an ocean (the dome divided the waters into bodies above and below the dome). That is, Genesis I follows a Babylonian view of the cosmos, which is not surprising since much of Genesis was probably written during or right after the Babylonian captivity. Noah's flood followed God's releasing of the heavenly ocean above, which poured through sluice gates mentioned in the Bible, and the waters below the earth that had been held in check were also released by God. Thus, the earth (all of it) was totally flooded.

See my thread: Flat-Earth World 03/23/2016 16:53

algebe's picture
You forgot the turtles.

You forgot the turtles.

jdrose's picture
If you want to understand you

If you want to understand you will come to understand., BTW, Enoch was never included in Torah. Lots of stuff was left out.Think of it as the "politics of the day - control the people by keeping them uninformed because they cant be trusted with real knowledge lest they make false Gods and idols --" which has led to much confusion. That's why people don't trust. I believe there is a complete story and my original post link does an excellent job in laying down the basics.

If you can find the people listed in Chronicles (not part of Torah either) and their names are recorded in other civilizations and cities are in their name, that can be seen as substantiating the historical record. Independent verification.

algebe's picture
This ancient spacemen crap is

This ancient spacemen crap is almost as annoying as the biblical BS. It's an insult to our ancestors. Our ancestors walked out of Africa and around the world. They fought lions, hyenas and crocodiles and won. They survived deadly diseases, volcanoes, ice ages, earthquakes. They invented fire-making, cooking, clothing, tools, art, science, and language. This talk about spacemen and gods belittles these amazing achievements. I'm sure there are life and civilizations elsewhere in this big universe. But there's zero evidence that they came here and tampered with our DNA or taught us anything.

jdrose's picture
Got a problem with this? http

Got a problem with this?
There's more. It all fits together. No Problem. There was a lot of breeding going on from 200,000 years back.Strangely, Neanderthals lack the "speech gene" though 2 per cent of people have the Neanderthal gene. Says lots about evolution. Seems kind of planned to me, although you probably disagree.

chimp3's picture
Disagree, Yes! You have not

Disagree, Yes! You have not been very convincing BS Believer. Making a claim and supporting that claim by citing other people making that claim is not providing strong evidence.

Kataclismic's picture
"If you want to understand

"If you want to understand you will come to understand."

Exactly. It's a bit like geometry; if you think we live on a flat plane then you won't have to use it, especially if it proves you are wrong. You can either understand geometry, or you can design your own mathematics that describe a flat plane where you can make the same observations as in a three-dimensional world and then tell me that if I just understood your math then I'd know we live on a flat plane. The problem is I can always argue that if you just understood geometry, you'd see that we live on a sphere. Geometry has been demonstrated to work so I have no reason to need your mathematics. So you will have to break it down into something we can agree on before we can converse. Anything else is just you rambling.

charvakheresy's picture
BS Unbeliever. - You claim

BS Unbeliever. - You claim that the flood referred to in the Bilbe was a local flood as opposed to a universal flood. To support this claim you gave the argument that earth in the Hebrew language meant only land inhabited by man or something similar.

If the Flood was a local one it implies that there were plenty of areas which were not flooded.
As per the Biblical records Noah was instructed by god to build the ark and was probably given divine instruction as well.

Now considering the size of the ark (By the estimates made by the answers in genesis foundation) The ark was huge and took quite a while for a novice family to build.

Why didn't god just ask the family to relocate to safety.
If the animals arrived from all over the world in pairs at Noahs door they could have easily sought out the place where it wouldn't flood.
It would be much easier to create storage of resources on a dry patch of land with a water supply than on a boat.

God wanted to drown a particular region so bad he forgot that the rest would be unaffected?

So your interpretation of the text is obviously wrong. It makes your god appear more inept and your Noah delusional.

Dave Matson's picture


Excellent points! Maybe BS Unbeliever should read his own Bible.

"For my part, I am going to bring a flood of waters on the earth to destroy from under heaven ALL FLESH in which is the breath of life;..." NOAB 4th edition (bold-face mine).

Don't zebras and koalas live under heaven, are of flesh, and have the breath of life?

"And of EVERY living thing, of ALL flesh, you shall bring two of EVERY kind into the ark,..." Genesis 6:19 NOAB 4th edition (bold-face mine)

That includes llamas and New World monkeys, and animal kinds all over the world. Yep, it's a world-wide flood according to the Bible!

Genesis 6:17

jdrose's picture
but the inhabited land did

but the inhabited land did flood and the place of 1st recorded civilization, Gobekli Tepe in modern Turkey, was also flooded until the waters receded.
not to mention indigenous cultures worldwide share a common Great Flood story. It this collective worldwide delusion or history that has become obscured over time like the game of "telephone"?

charvakheresy's picture
Indigenous cultures worldwide

Indigenous cultures worldwide share a flood myth-

This is because most thriving civilisations were on the banks of rivers or waterbodies and guess what! they flood.

There are plenty of african tribes that don't have a flood myth. Mongolian myths don't have a flood myth. even Norse cultures don't have a flood myth.

Secondly the timeline of your myths don't add up.

Thirdly the only prominent flood myths belong in one isolated place on the world map (Middle east)

Please do a better research of your own thesis before you present it this haphazardly. Your narrative doesn't add up, Your time lines don't match. Your explanation is more absurd than your story.

Are you pulling our leg ? Is this some joke? There have been plenty of theists on this site who have been a bit more coherent in their opinion no matter how incorrect we deemed them but you are just incoherent and absurd.

jdrose's picture
There are Flood myths

There are Flood myths worldwide. , there seems to be a Flood story, including Mongolia.where

"Hailibu, a kind and generous hunter, saved a white snake from a crane which attacked it. Next day, he met the same snake with a retinue of other snakes. The snake told him that she was the Dragon King's daughter, and the Dragon King wished to reward him. She advised Hailibu to ask for the precious stone that the Dragon King keeps in his mouth. With that stone, she told him, he could understand the language of animals, but he would turn to stone if he ever divulged its secret to anyone else. Hailibu went to the Dragon King, turned down his many other treasures, and was given the stone. Years later, Hailibu heard some birds saying that the next day the mountains would erupt and flood the land. He went back home to warn his neighbors, but they didn't believe him. To convince them, he told them how he had learned of the coming flood and told them the full story of the precious stone. When he finished his story, he turned to stone. The villagers, seeing this happen, fled. It rained all the next night, and the mountains erupted, belching forth a great flood of water. When the people returned, they found the stone which Hailibu had turned into and placed it at the top of the mountain. For generations, they have offered sacrifices to the stone in honor of Hailibu's sacrifice. [Elder & Wong, pp. 75-77]"

charvakheresy's picture
The key here is they fled a

The key here is they fled a local flood..... didn't need a boat. no one was asked to build a boat. Flooding is a natural phenomenon. Wheres the boat? Wheres the similarity between the two stories?

jdrose's picture
Look for things in common.

Look for things in common. Nobody believes the man. He talks with the animals via a communication device. What else was it tapped into and what other treasures were offered? Why was the man so revered that people still climb to a high place, an ararat, and make offerings in the custom of Noah and Abraham, never Mohammed cause he wasn't that kind of man, but you already know that...
Anyway, I bet you that stone is pretty big, and nobody carried it up. It probably came to be during the upheaval of "The Flood", the same way the Scablands and Rocky Mountains are both about 12,000 years old. So I take this tale as a rememberance of the Flood, even if the tale gets obscured over time, it is a residual memory that is preserved.

BTW: Here is the history and lineage of the Arabs and the infection Islam which is merely a continuation of Baal worship.
LINEAGE OF ARABS (Descendants of Ham) – Archeological Research garnered from tablet fragments: Hittite, Akkadian and Sumerian:

1.3000 BCE descendants of Canaan, grandson of Noah via Ham break out of their proscribed region – southern Turkey – immediately north of the Euphrates River – True “Syria”. Some move southward into the Levant. Most rename themselves As-Syrians. They garner iron from the Hittites and invade and destroy Haran, Assur (neighboring cities ) and attack Nineveh.

2.300-600 years later they have burnt Niniveh to the ground and made Babylon their capitol (Babylon founded by Nimrod I, firstborn of Ham).

3.Later the Akkadian King, Sargon of Niniveh heritage, recaptures northern Mesopotamia and conquers Babylon, making it his capitol as Niniveh was still in ruins.

4.From several recorded Sumerian records from Ubaid, Ur and Uruk tell of the children of Nimrod/children of the Assyrians evacuate Babylon and move into the North-Central grass plains of the Arabian Peninsula. THEY ARE THE FIRST ARABS(ARABIANS).

5.From previous historical records, it is known that the peoples living south of the Euphrates River, down the Euphrates River. East through the Indus region and Persia and the peoples of seacoast of the Arabian Peninsula and Ethiopia are descendants are the first born of Noah (Shem), and they do not intermarry with the descendants of Ham.

6.Midianites, at their root, are Sumerian sheepherders who later combined with offspring of the House of Abraham (a Sumerian), combined with or intermarried to peoples from the Kingdom of Sheba (Yemen) and Ethiopia.

7.MOST IMPORTANT CLUE: Every culture had a signature animal symbol. Throughout Mesopotamia and the regions of the second born of Noah (Japeth) – The Caucasus, Turkey, Black Sea (also East and West), it was the bull. You find artifact Bulls in silver, copper, bronze and other materials. The Hamites created a half-man/half-bull symbol which they called Baal. Time of origination dates to circa 3000 BCE in Lebanon at what is now the place known as Baalbek (megalithic platform structure). As for the Arabs from the grassy central plain of Arabia, over time they migrated and founded Medina. They would have been Baal worshippers. Medina was founded near Mecca which was a thriving trade center for agriculture, minerals, frankensense everything coming up from Yemen.

Mohammed’s wife (Khadija) inherited the camel train cartage business when her husband died, but could not keep it unless she had a husband for legal ownership purposes. She found an idiot teenager who could not read or write, and that was Mohammed. When she died, the other relatives gave Mohammed money and they took over the business. Mohammed travels with them. Near Ebla, Syria (Modern Syria), the rich idiot Mohammed teams up with Syrian mercenaries. The cult of domination – Submit or Die – Slavery of Women, begins there. They call him their prophet and use him. Between Midian and Syria, along the road east of the Dead Sea/Jordan Valley, that’s where Mohammed has epiphany in a cave. Later they settle in Medina/Mecca.

Sources on Mohammed: University of Chicago, Oriental Institute, Oxford in Britain (Syrian, Egyptian, Coptic, Middle Eastern, Yemeni, Ethiopian articles – English Translations)

TO STUDY THE ANCIENT CULT-RELIGION OF BAAL EXPLAINS the divergence of Islam from Judaism and the adoption of dominating, killing, lying cheating and other anti-civilization aspects. Throughout the entire ancient world, the bull which was the machine-tractor of the ancient world was depicted and revered but only worshipped by Hamites (Assyrian, Canaanites, Southern Egyptians) Baal is recorded as the God of War/Violence/Storms/Domination. These are the root aspects that were worshipped in Medina, and when Medina conquered Mecca (which worshipped the God of Israel, as all Shemites/Midianites would), they supplanted those things into the new religion – Islam

Sir Random's picture
"Look for things in common."

"Look for things in common."


Sir Random's picture


1) The evidence must rule out, beyond a reasonable doubt, all significant alternative conclusions. If the evidence can support other conclusions that have proven valid from time to time, then we have a significant alternative conclusion.

2) The claim must describe reality correctly. There must be no significant conflict with objective facts and other proven knowledge. A significant conflict is a conflict that cannot easily be side-stepped by a small, sensible repair, the result of a significant conflict being to seriously damage the credibility of the claim.

3) The claim must pass critical tests of any predictions that it makes.

4) The candidate proof cannot involve major disagreement among respected, knowledgeable experts who have no axe to grind. Such disagreement signifies that the claim is still in contention and, therefore, not proven.

(P.S: Greensnake I hope you don't mind me copying this)

chimp3's picture
Thomas Paine in the 1780's

Thomas Paine in the 1780's effectively debunked the Torah as a historical document. Read "The Age of Reason". The real question I would rather discuss is this: When humans invent a god of their own imaginations and this god is a seriously flawed, evil genocidal tyrannt what type of men are these? Why are humans still trembling at the imaginary spectres of iron aged despots and slave traders? There is no humor in the Torah or Christian Bible. There are no trickster characters such as Coyote to liven things up. There is just this horrible sky daddy who demands that a people who are barely surviving on manna throw perfectly good meat on to the fire so sky daddy can savor the scent. For a 21st century human the question remains , why sell yourself into such an irrational state of mental bondage and then spend your limited days on earth convincing others how great it is to be a slave?

jdrose's picture

I know you are but what am I?

"There is just this horrible sky daddy who demands that a people who are barely surviving on manna throw perfectly good meat on to the fire so sky daddy can savor the scent"

Animal sacrifice was a Barbeque, where people ate the best of the meat with gratitude for the creator. That's the whole point. Elohim doesn't eat food. But this is beyond your comprehension. Also Manna, a word that appears in many cultures, was the food that sustained by the Israelites during their wanderings in the desert where they were administered to by the pillar of fire at night and pillar of cloud during the day. More of the Watchers, but you will never agree because your capacity ranges all the way from A to B,
Also, there was no slavery until the Baal crap started about 3,000 BCE. Thank the meteor in 3123 BCE which loosed asshole Hamites (Caananites specifically) for that, Get over it.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Oh I see we have a new user:

Oh I see we have a new user: BS Unbeliever. Maybe they will bring an interesting new perspective!

BS Unbeliever - the infection Islam which is merely a continuation of Baal worship

Oh, another nutter. Sigh.

jdrose's picture
Attack the messenger when you

Nyar.... Attack the messenger when you can't refute the message. Typical. Probably u didn't even take the time to inform yourself with the multi-media presentation. BTW, the facts i laid out RE: Islam for Charvak, who describes himself as a former Muslim is TRUTH. Can you REFUTE my list of substantiated FACTS without resorting to character assassination? You must be a Democrat.


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