Finding Noah for real?

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Sir Random's picture
" You must be a Democrat."

" You must be a Democrat."

What does that have to do with ANYTHING on this string?

As for me, I'm a Moderate Social Libertarian

mykcob4's picture
@BS Unbeliever

@BS Unbeliever
First of all, this statement is pattanedly uncalled for, "You must be a Democrat."
2) It's not "Democrat", It's Democratic!
3) Character assassination is the hallmark of radical conservatives.
4) What does politics have to do with the issue?
It is plain to see that if anyone doesn't take your magic leap then we are just stupid or unworthy.
Charvak is a well-respected member of this forum, that holds no prejudice, does not engage in character assassinations of feuding of any kind.
Your "list" isn't substantial OR factual. So don't start insulting people just because they can easily shoot down all your so-called facts.

watchman's picture


" Can you REFUTE my list of substantiated FACTS without resorting to character assassination? "

We may well be able to refute your "substantiated FACTS".....(btw ...bad practice to utilise caps as a way of trying to indicate truth...)


Let see what you have presented thus far...

"3000 BCE descendants of Canaan, grandson of Noah via Ham break out of their proscribed region – southern Turkey – immediately north of the Euphrates River – True “Syria”. Some move southward into the Levant. Most rename themselves As-Syrians. They garner iron from the Hittites and invade and destroy Haran, Assur (neighboring cities ) and attack Nineveh."

Which you claim is

"LINEAGE OF ARABS (Descendants of Ham) – Archeological Research garnered from tablet fragments: Hittite, Akkadian and Sumerian:"

If your claim is correct and this information does actually come from "Archaeological Research" then it will have been presented in archaeological journals/papers/articles.....

Could you please provide links to said evidence...

You go on...

"300-600 years later they have burnt Niniveh to the ground and made Babylon their capitol (Babylon founded by Nimrod I, firstborn of Ham)."

300-600 years later.....? From when..? From 3000 BC or another date......? Come on...archaeologists are not this vague....present your dates....

Also...."they have burnt Niniveh to the ground "...... have they...? Whoare "they"..??

again you say..

"Later the Akkadian King, Sargon of Niniveh heritage, recaptures northern Mesopotamia and conquers Babylon, making it his capitol as Niniveh was still in ruins"

What do you mean..."Later"?......when...?

Then you go on....

".From several recorded Sumerian records from Ubaid, Ur and Uruk tell of the children of Nimrod/children of the Assyrians evacuate Babylon and move into the North-Central grass plains of the Arabian Peninsula. THEY ARE THE FIRST ARABS(ARABIANS)."

Which records..? name them....they are all numbered and recorded and sit in museums and universities around the globe....give your evidence...


"From previous historical records, it is known that the peoples living south of the Euphrates River, down the Euphrates River. East through the Indus region and Persia and the peoples of seacoast of the Arabian Peninsula and Ethiopia are descendants are the first born of Noah (Shem), and they do not intermarry with the descendants of Ham."

"From previous historical records"....which historical records...??? give your sources...

Now we come to it....

"MOST IMPORTANT CLUE"......... Clue...? bloody CLUE...???


Like I said......You present a "substantiated fact".....and we will examine it........

but it does have to be a fact.....not an opinion...not a guess.....not an aspiration

jdrose's picture
Bibliography of Resources -

Bibliography of Resources - "Finding Noah" (compilation in progress 1/14/2010)

Online :

Charles F. Horne, Ph.D. (1915). "The Code of Hammurabi : Introduction". Yale University.

Wikpedia - The Code of Ur-Nammu ) Cylinder Seal image used in article 1 pertains to this man-(Ur-Nammu (seated) bestows governorship on Ḫašḫamer, patesi (high priest) of Iškun-Sin (cylinder seal impression, ca. 2100 BC).
2. Praise poem of Urukagina
3. Pre Dynastic Qahtan (23rd century BC-8th century BC)
4. Kingdom of Saba (8th century BCE - 275 CE)

Edessa, City of history:

Catal Hoyuk:

History of Jericho:

the Archaeological Institute of America

2009 March 14 by Paul Drye

The world's oldest temple offers a glimpse of the Garden of Eden - by Yigal Schleifer

"An extraordinary discovery of a place of worship dating back to 9000 B.C. has been made in Turkey."

GOBEKLI - Smthsonian Magazine

1. Munro, Natalie D. (2003). "Small game, the Younger Dryas, and the transition to agriculture in the southern Levant". Mitteilungen der Gesellschaft für Urgeschichte 12: 47-71. (Translation, Oxford press)

1. Bar-Yosef, Ofer (1998), "The Natufian Culture in the Levant, Threshold to the Origins of Agriculture", Evolutionary Anthropology 6 (5): 159-177, doi:10.1002/(SICI)1520-6505(1998)6:5<159::AID-EVAN4>3.0.CO;2-7,

M. Redha Bhacker and Bernadette Bhacker. "Digging in the Land of Magan". Archaeological Institute of America.

John Lawton. "Oman - The Lost Land". Saudi Aramco World (May/June 1983): 18-19.

Real World Library Resources:

David Lewis-Williams and David Pearce, "An Accidental revolution? Early Neolithic religion and economic change", Minerva, 17 #4 (July/August, 2006), pp. 29-31.

Bryce, Trevor (1998). The Kingdom of the Hittites. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-924010-8. Bryce, Trevor (2002). Life and Society in the Hittite World. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-924170-8.

"The World's First Temple by Sandra Scham"

Josephus (easy to find)
Tanakh : "old Aramaic" source

Museum Resources: available resources & requested assistance resource materials

Oriental Institute, University of Chicago, post graduate staff and Norman Sulhkha Ph.D. curator - archeologist and the university's library of antiquities

Field Museum, Chicago

London Museum, Britain

New York Metropolitan Museum of Art

Louvre' Museum, France

Yale University (archeology department resources)

Harvard University Press

Smithsonian, usa

Nyarlathotep's picture
BS Unbeliever: let me clue

BS Unbeliever: let me clue you in a bit. When they said they wanted academic sources, they meant they wanted sources for the radical claims you made, not a random list of sources on tangent material.

chimp3's picture
Right! "Here is a list of

Right! "Here is a list of sources that I have misinterpreted and garbled up data from!" LOL.

watchman's picture
BS....... ( your chosen name

BS....... ( your chosen name gets more and more apt the closer your "stuff" is examined...)

I was going to snap off a quick rebuttal this morning....

but then I thought ,"No"....however suspect this guy is he has at least provided a list of sources.....

so i have taken some time to examine your "claimed" sources...

And I have to say that you are an appalling fraud..... as far as I have checked...none ..(that is NOT ONE) of your quoted sources provide any of the points you claim......

There is no evidence of flooding on the GÖBEKLI TEPE site......

There is no evidence for the "First Arabians" you claim it.....

"From several recorded Sumerian records from Ubaid, Ur and Uruk tell of the children of Nimrod/children of the Assyrians evacuate Babylon and move into the North-Central grass plains of the Arabian Peninsula. THEY ARE THE FIRST ARABS(ARABIANS)."

In fact what evidence there is points to an entirely different story.....

"A six-year study mapping genetic patterns found that people who ended up in Europe, Asia and Oceania got there by crossing the sea to Arabia around 70,000 years ago.
Scientists had thought that humankind left for other continents in a northern direction through Egypt's Sinai region but now it seems they wandered further south, probably via Yemen.

Evidence shows sea levels were probably low enough for the first people to cross from the horn of Africa into Arabia via the Red Sea's Bab-el-Mandeb straits.
From there it seems that southern Asian countries like India were key stopping points from where humans spread across the rest of the world.
Settlers followed a coastal route down into east Asia and Oceania while others burst upwards into Iran, Russia, Europe and China.


See that....and not a mention of Nimrod ....... who'd have thought it ?

You then came up with a list of World wide Museums..... fair enough...but you don't say which ones gave you what that for list the...."London Museum, Britain" this one I found interesting......(although still no context..)....

but you see.... THERE IS NO LONDON MUSEUM....

don't take my word for it for yourself....

I think your list of sources is related to your posts in exactly the same manner that a whelk is related to the International Space Station.................................that is..............not at all.

By the way..The Walrus "DIGGING FOR PARADISE" article is no longer .accessible.....

I think you owe the forum an apology for time wasting

jdrose's picture
Watchman. I am formerly known

Watchman. I am formerly known as "BS Unbeliever" because I realized that name may be perceived as misleading and ultimately harsh, and alienation is not my motive.

Regarding the sourcing list, you comment on, I copied the bibliography from artist Marc Rubin's "Finding Noah" bibliography. If you read the post where I delineated the "lineage of Arabs" to which you are responding, you will notice I sourced this material from :

"(Sources on Mohammed: University of Chicago, Oriental Institute, Oxford in Britain (Syrian, Egyptian, Coptic, Middle Eastern, Yemeni, Ethiopian articles – English Translations)"

This came about because one day I told Marc "Robert Spencer's website says he is giving a talk on Islam. We met him and Pam. What can you tell me about the history of the Arabs, so I can send it to Robert, who although he is a scholar may not know what you know because he has not studied in the same way?"

Marc dictated to me his response, which I saved for my own knowledge and which I posted in my response to Charbak because I saw he was an ex-Muslim.

Let me tell you what I know of Rubin's sources of The Oriental Institute and Oxford. For the Oriental Institute, Marc and I had the honor to meet Dr. Norman Solkhah whose family funded a major wing of the Oriental Institute in Chicago. This was about 2007 and Dr. Solkhah was about 80 years old the time.

We met him by appointment via a mutual friend at his private museum in Linconlwood, IL

The amazing part of the visit was listening to the artist and Dr. Solhkhah speak. The Dr. could read every stele and plate in the ancient Aramaic/Akkadian, while Marc was able to connect to the Dr. by explaining the history through the art. When they met, Marc told the Dr. "you are a descendant of Arphaxad" and the Dr. smiled warmly with a look of surprise, admiration and gratitude, that I will never forget..

Arphaxad was a son of Shem (of Noah) --Chronicles--and created the first settlement in Persia. They both shared an affinity for King Sargon II and considered him a hero. In the museum photo "The Palace of Ashurbanipal" (Sargon II was his father), Marc walked the Dr through the art and artifacts, including a recreation of the throne room of Sargon, which, if I remember correctly, Dr. S had help discover as an oil geologist in the Middle East earlier in his career. Let's just say, they both agree that Noah is the ancestral father, and the artist and the Dr. left, each feeling richer and more fulfilled.

For the Oxford sources, in 2002 or so, when Rubin was researching "Finding Noah", he made corresponded with an elderly Oxford professor who didn't know it would be his major life's work to trace back the "Star of David" because he had no idea how far back in antiquity the symbol went. The artist related to me of the correspondence they had regarding original sourcing on Mohammed and Islam. What I write about Islam, not the lineage, comes from this man's knowledge which he shared with Mr. Rubin. He was the artist's source for getting to the "Syrian, Egyptian, Coptic, Middle Eastern, Yemeni, Ethiopian articles – English Translations"
This was all within Oxford University web resources, not all publicly available. for obvious reasons. Ask a Muslim apostate how easy it is to speak against Mohammed, and that goes double for academia.

Last point. When the artist and I visited the Oriental Institute in 2008, in Dr. Solhkhah's Family gallery, there was a book on Islam which tried to usurp Mesopotamian history and an erroneous artifact exhibition attempting to do the same. Lets just say, one phone call, and the matter was taken care of.

watchman's picture


No…I think I’ll stick with BS…..

After all it is SO you…

You post a less than interesting and pointless anecdote…..which proves …..? …….nothing!

You have answered ….nothing.

You claimed….

“"From several recorded Sumerian records from Ubaid, Ur and Uruk tell of the children of Nimrod/children of the Assyrians evacuate Babylon and move into the North-Central grass plains of the Arabian Peninsula. THEY ARE THE FIRST ARABS(ARABIANS).”

I’m still waiting to find out which “Sumerian records”

Not to mention the “mythical” London Museum.

And now you introduce “Oxford”…..

Oxford what ? which college ?,which institute ?

“This was all within Oxford University web resources, not all publicly available.”
How convenient for you…. So no actual proof then.
And yet…IF IT EXISTs it will be freely available to all the Muslim students at Oxford.

I don’t suppose there is any chance of getting the name of the strangely anonymous “elderly Oxford professor who didn't know it would be his major life's work to trace back the "Star of David"”

No you have provided NO EVDENCE of any sort….

And you know what Hitchens said…..

“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

I shall continue to regard you as BS……

BS by name……. BS by nature.

Unless you can PROVE otherwise….

Sir Random's picture
"And you know what Hitchens

"And you know what Hitchens said…..

“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”"

Upon reading that quote I have immediately resolved to look up some of Hitchens work.

jdrose's picture
when I met the artist the

when I met the artist the work had been done. He told me during the research he had printed out hundreds of pages. I asked to see them, but was told after a life upheaval, he disposed of them when he moved residences. Naturally, I would have loved to read them all. He also told me that some of the info which he got, was no longer available on the internet.

But I have seen computer pics of hundreds of artifacts, stele, etc he had downloaded into a folder, and we went through them and discussed them. The explainations had the "ring of truth" to me, and I have learned to decipher some myself, once I learned the basic rules on interpretation

So you can call me a liar and whatever else you want to do. Believe what you want. I don't really care. Dr. Sohlkhah has one thousand times more credentials than you (I imagine) and Marc got him to see things in a contextual and refreshing manner.

I don't lie. As my ancient cousin reportedly said "don't cast your pearls before swine". Another lesson learned, despite my better judgement of posting here in the first place. Ciao, Good Bye./

Sir Random's picture
Good riddance, and bon voyage

Good riddance, and bon voyage!

watchman's picture


So it ends with the almost inevitable theist "two step" ,sliding the entire thread "sideways" in an attempt to misrepresent the discussion.....

However ...just by way of clarifying any perceived misrepresentations.......

" So you can call me a liar ...."

I'd be obliged if you would point out any where I called you a liar.........I did however refer to you by the initials that YOU chose for YOUR forum identity......(perhaps you should have chosen with more care..?)

"Dr. Sohlkhah has one thousand times more credentials than you ....."

Undoubtedly true......a cursory search provides....."two Bachelor’s Degrees (in Psychology and Bio-engineering), a Master’s Degree in Child Psychology and a Doctorate of Philosophy in Clinical Psychology"

I would point out that he has no qualifications in Archeaology, Assyriology, or even History.....

There is however this ....

"He became actively involved with those scholars and has been a patron to their research. Dr. Solhkhah is the founder of the Mesopotamia Museum of Chicago, a collection of ancient artefacts. He has also sponsored lectures at the Assyrian American National Federation Annual Convention from leading Assyriologists.

So all very laudable ....BUT he is a patron....a sponsor ....not an actual Archaeological scholar himself.

You went on,...

"(I imagine)"......

Well yes you do....and far too much .... plus you seem to have a disconnect between "imaginings" and "reality".

The rest is histrionics...


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