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First, I'd like to say that having a view on all Christians, "followers of Jesus," or whatever you wish to call them would be a form of stereotyping. Other than to say that they obviously subscribe to magical and irrational thinking (a man survived his own death and virgin births, to name some cornerstone beliefs), I have no blanket opinions. People have the compete right to believe in anything they want or worship whatever they want. Frankly, I don't care if you worship your lawnmower, so long as you leave me out of it.
Now, when people's beliefs start infringing upon my or anyone else's rights and societal progress, then I have something to say about it. I certainly don't feel kindly towards those who do.
So, worship your lawnmower. When the position becomes that laws should be passed based upon the wishes of your lawnmower, we have a problem. When people are persecuted and discriminated against due to the wishes of the lawnmower, I've got a problem. When the position becomes that I or others are somehow lacking for not worshiping your lawnmower, I refute that argument.
Replace lawnmower with Jesus (or Yahweh, Krishna, Kali, Durga, Isis, Budda, etc) and you have your answer.
Hope this helps.
Hello Jessej1s89 (can I call you Jesse?)
I don't normally respond to things like this but I find myself especially interested since you seem to be so open minded. This is how debate should be- neither side threatened by the other, just exchanging ideas.
First of all, I don't hate religious people. My family is Christian. I have some beautiful Muslim friends along with Hindi and ... well, to be honest, I don't know what else. I don't go around asking too much.
My offense with any religion itself is more a battle for the human mind. A free thinking, coherent, logical human mind.
Many of the religious texts try to find ways to get humans to constrain their minds. For example, they try to make you believe (in the same way parents use Santa Clause) that you will be judged for certain things. Not even your own mind is safe- god can hear your thoughts.
I was told when I was young that the only unforgivable sin was questioning god. Coupled with "oh and he can hear your thoughts" and suddenly you are trapped into limiting your thinking. Even questioning God was risking my very soul. This is manipulation- it inserts fear into your daily life to control your mind.
We have only one thing in this world we can be sure of- our own minds (and bodies in general). Everything we do, see, hear, touch... it all passes through the filter of the human mind. It is the only tool we have to know our universe.
So it must be protected from attack. It must know how to see conflicting ideas, weigh them, and see which one is worthier. It cannot do this if it's afraid to think clearly.
i myself am not an athiest, though i support many concepts puforth by athiests. i also follow athiest pages and thier websites. Though your question was to athiest , i too wanted to share my views in this post.
Athiest never hate religious people. They only hate the bad things done in the name of religion. One of my neighbour was a bully, he has also done many uncomfortable things which ended up harmful. But after that he started believing jesus and started going to church. Those his family had lots of athiest members . they never stopped him from believing . Because they believed he found out something that made him a righteous man. He found control over himself regardless of how he got it. Until it dint affect anyone.
What i understood from athiest pages is that . Athiest look people who believe in god similar to kids believing in imaginary friends. But the fact what angers them is that the religious people put nature and other people into trouble believing too much into what they consider as sacred without understanding the actual truth behind it. People are just scared of an entity and do wrong things rather than believing in what is right. In that process they become selfish and a zombie controlled by few who proclaim themselves as gods right hand man.
These are my views and am sorry if i have made anyone feel uncomfortable by this.
Well Jesse, it looks like you are getting some of what you wanted.
If you are curious about what others believe about Christians, I would suggest that you broaden your search. Here you are narrowly focused on atheists and their views. Atheists are still a very small minority in America and certainly not the only source of hatred. If you look to the broader public opinion, you will start to see some separation between god and Christianity or sometime the church. What I found interesting is that people were OK with the concept of god, but dislike Christians or the church.
I would suggest that you read a couple of books that I found very enlightening. The first one “Divine Commodity” by Skye Jethani. He basically shows that the church has a mass consumer mindset. It is about self and what’s in it me. Religion in America is a billion dollar money machine and churches are nothing more than country clubs controlled by priest. As a bit of trivia, the first vending machine in history was to dispense holy water. I think in ancient Egypt.
The second book is “unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity...and Why It Matters” by David Kinnaman. This book really gets into what turns people off about Christianity. You will find in here that people do not reject god (unlike an atheist), but the church. Both books are written by Christian and the research is done by Christians. You will find it most informative.
I would also suggests that you become a silent listener in your own church. You will start to hear the hate within the self-righteousness vocabulary. It is one of the reasons I left the Southern Baptist Convention, which by the way are the only true believers ;-). Listen to how they talk about the poor, visitors, those who dress differently, those who can’t make every Sunday and Wednesday. You may be surprised. You will start to hear how everyone on the outside is looking to destroy America. I found it interesting for a people who had not been give the spirit of fear (2 Timothy 1:7), the messages are full of fear.
Enjoy. Hopefully, a few thing to think about.
Jesse. Oh, Jesse. I hope you are really here to learn, or at least to understand.
Religions have always been about controlling people. In modern days, it was discovered that you could also make a bucket load of money while gaining political power-which is what controlling people is.
Lots of folks claim to be christian. (or whatever) They all claim their religion is the best, their cult of that religion is the best, their church of that cult is the best. That is all just human tribal nature.
What I hate about religion is it's constant effort to force others into it's fold. In America, that is the christian religion and it already has quite a toehold on our "secular" government. Now you have people out their so ravenous for money and power, that they will claim anything to get christians to do their dirty work. You know, like subjugating women, criminalizing race or sexual orientation through legislation. Look at all of the politicians using christianity to make abortion illegal or impossible when it is already a right for all women in this country. (not to mention contraceptives! I mean, how asinine is that?) It should be an everyday procedure for all women everywhere. But men, empowered by christianity(or islam-take your pick of them all), always want the total say over what happens to their pregnant "whores".
Now you will claim that "those people are not real christians". So why do all of you "innocent REAL christians" out there keep putting them into power in our government? How would you feel if Muslims were taking over the American government? That is exactly how I feel when christians are doing it.
Christians also seem to worry a lot about THEIR "freedoms", but no one else's. How would that make you feel, if the shoe were on the other foot? How would you feel if a restaurant forbid you to pray over your meal? How would you feel if your public buildings were decorated with Jewish symbols and no others? Would you want to live in a country where saying you are "christian" out loud is liable to get you harmed or even killed? You know, like atheist and LGBT folks feel now in the USA? Do you not understand that when it is OK with you that your "leaders" want to make law based on their egregious beliefs, that I, an atheist, feel the horror that you feel when your leaders continue to scare you into obedience with threats of "sharia law"?
If religious people could just take a few moments out of their self-righteous day and try a little empathetic thinking, perhaps you will have a clear understanding as to why people who do not share your religion find you terrifying and oppressive and even monstrous.
It is no different than all of those white folks out there saying that "black people were better off as slaves" or that "racism is in the past" while they know that they will never have to feel any of that in their lives. Like the rich have now gotten a good lot of "christians" in this country looking down on the poor-many of who were put there by the christian republicans in very recent years.
We know that all religions have blood on their hands. We all know that the bible and all the other books praise atrocity in the name of that religion's total power. Maybe those "leaders" have convinced millions of you that religion is all about joy and peace, kindness and giving. But still, you all rage for war and turn your eyes from dying children and homeless people that those wars create. Some of you even see war and natural disasters as a great opportunity to jump in and start converting those vulnerable people to your ponzie scheme, all in the name of "aid". You never give without a plan of some return.
I don't hate a person just because they are "christian". I hate what they do in it's name. I hate their hypocrisy and their callousness and their lack of empathy for anyone not on their same bandwagon. I hate that they continually justify all kinds of bad behavior in the name of their religion and call it "doing good".
If you are not a hypocrite, if you do not believe that the things that christians do all over the world (like denying condoms to people during an AIDS epidemic, like turning people in other countries against each other, all in the name of christianity, then why do you bother to believe any kind of religious dogma at all? People can, and do, wonderful, compassionate things for one another all of the time simply out of the genetically innate kindness and social order of all social beings. Do you really need someone else to tell you what is right and what is wrong? Or is it the fear, plain and simple, that the "christians" bang into your head day in and day out that keeps you from thinking?
These are just some of the reasons that I dislike religious people. I would hate religion,but religions is not a THING, it is it's people. It is a meme that has flourished far too long in human culture. It is destroying our very planet, has callous disregard for all other life on the Earth, a lot of it other human life. I believe that religion is the root of all evil in humans, not money. Because religion is what humans use to get that money, to justify their corruption, to blind their minions so they keep giving them that power to do it all over again.
I have lots of friends who "believe". Probably more than I know, since I never ask. I judge them on how they behave, as they do me. You wouldn't believe how many jaws I have seen dropped to the floor when they realize that I do not share their beliefs. They cannot comprehend that anyone could be a decent human being without following at least one of the religious cults. Because, if they can begin to see that, acknowledge that, their puppet masters will have a lot to worry about.
Jesse, I don't know, but I have a feeling that teh reason religious people everywhere hate people who have no belief in gods, is because they know that we plainly see that their emperor has no clothes. And the more people that see that, the less money and power they will have.
Lovely post, Tia, lovely.
Hating believers isn't necessarily the central issue. Most people, when approached on a daily basis, are just people. The issue I have with Christians is their inability to keep their beliefs to themselves. Legislative impositions, social stigmatism, some cases of outright violence. The smug arrogance behind every declaration of "America is a Christian nation' while your leadership shits all over the founding principles on which this nation was founded...
Really, how could we possibly have an issue with you?
Great post "TiaLee" and thanks for breaking it up, I see some people are posting walls of text which is a chore to read on a screen.
Um? Hello? Are you going to reply to any of us? All my questions have been asked. I'm just waiting for answers.
Lady, if you can hate de sin but not the sinner, we can hate belief but not de believer.
OP seems to be gone for now, so perhaps I can act as a substitute. Like OP, I was raised Christian, but I do not limit my beliefs or theories to any one religion or theory. Q&A format should suffice for this thread.
Q: "because your beliefs (and those who share them) can be major sources of oppression in our lives".
A: There should be no doubt in anyone's mind (theist or atheist) that this is true, especially throughout history. However, I don't hate religion, I hate the horrible behavior of the oppressors. Oppression isn't limited to religion. Hitler grew up Christian, but he was Atheist by the time he took power. He too believed science would dispel all myths. So yes, there are both theist and atheist oppressors. Oppression doesn't come from religion, it comes from humans.
Q: "[I] find the followING of (insert religion here) distasteful and silly."
A: For the most part, so do I. Let's make this clear: religion is doctrine created by humans, and is typically a tool designed to control other humans throughout history. Religion or not, I still see a theory of existence where a higher power exists is still the most feasible one.
Q: "I also find the behavior of some followers of (insert religion here) abominable."
A: Humans are humans, regardless of their walk of life. Yep, many people use the excuse that their sins are forgiven as an excuse to continue to sin. Don't throw stereotypes around though.
Q: Before we get into it, please define "God."
A: We can get into Hebrew on this one. Elohim is the Hebrew word for God in Genesis chapter 1, but specifically it refers to God in a particular role: Creator. That's the generic modern translation, but there is a more interesting older translation of the word Elohim: Those who came from above. I've said all that, because I see two possible definitions for God (as far as Christianity goes). 1) The entity that caused the Big Bang. 2) The beings who came to Earth (who may have done genetic experiments to life on Earth: I'm not saying I believe this, it's just an interesting theory).
Q: "That's great, but why would your representation of the "face of God' be more correct than anyone else's?"
A: I'm not that person, so I can't answer your other two questions, not can I say that I have the same answer to this question as her, but I believe what she meant by this was: Love. When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus answered with: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbors as yourself. As opposed to condemning homosexuals to hell, which has no love in it whatsoever. That's just my guess.
Q: "When I see people who believe in fairy tales and prioritize illogical belief over basic human decency"
A: As an extension of my previous answer, treating others wrongly isn't justifiable through religion. Besides, the goal of religion should be loving your neighbors. People are often blinded to that by their own preconceptions and fears. However, I would like to say I find it distasteful when people (I admit, doubly so against atheists) are so closed minded that they can't believe in the possibilities of anything that they can't see, touch, smell, etc. You may as well have been born without an imagination. I'm not saying blind faith is correct, just that being closed minded to the possibilities is incorrect.
I'd like to respond to more of your posts, but I'm stopping the Q&A here for now as this post is already getting quite long.
Now I will bring forth some reasons why I feel a creator theory has a high probability of being true. Disclaimer: this is all based entirely upon my current knowledge, so do your own research.
Both (most) religion and science agree that there is a beginning of this universe.
Religion: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Science: Knows the big bang happened, but can't explain WHY it happened.
Both religion and science agree that there is a beginning of life on this planet.
Religion: God created life.
Science: Knows life began, but can't explain WHY it began. Despite all evidence collected, and experiments done thus far, there still isn't an explanation. What I do know is that the odds of a protein forming by pure random chance are 10^360 or something ridiculous like that.
Both religion and science agree that there are kinds of life on this planet.
Religion: God created fish, birds, creepy crawly things, etc, etc.
Science: It's an observed fact, every documented fossil and species of life presently observable can be categorized into one type of life or another. But science can't explain where these kinds came from. There are no known transitional fossils. Every fossil discovered to date is either in one category, or another. Ie. there are no half dinosaur half avian fossils that share two categories.
Now, we do know that "microevolution" does exist, right? Small changes in a species occur over the course of generations. The classic proof being the beaks of birds. If these changes really do constitute evolution, why aren't there transitional fossils? It is my opinion that microevolution should be renamed adaptation.
In conclusion, I feel that, in its present state, evolution requires just as much blind faith to believe in as any religion.
Under the topic of cosmology, if we existed in a closed universe (one where a big crunch and big bang occur in a never ending cycle), I would actually lend more credence to the idea of evolution, but current cosmological evidence indicated that the universe is actually expanding at a rate greater than what it used to be. I understand that nothing is conclusive, but my first logical thought is that if the universe expansion is accelerating, then the big crunch can't happen. That means that this universe has only had one beginning, and if its not in an infinite loop, that means that there HAD to be some kind of catalyst to cause the universe to form in the first place. Thus, a higher power.
That is my theory. As a theory, consider it, modify it it, and test it. But don't put blind faith in it.
Steel, the two quotes you pulled from my post were not, if fact, questions. They were statements.
You advise that I "don't throw stereotypes around". How, precisely, did I do so?
I do not accept you as a 'substitute' for the OP. You are certainly free to throw your two cents in, but you are not the OP. The OP gets to decide their own timeline for reply. Your impatience for those replies does not give you license to speak for that person. The quantity of replies to this post indicates, at least to me, that folks are interested in hearing replies from the OP, not a substitute.
Indeed, I would prefer talking to the OP, at least they don't conflate atheism with scientific theories. Atheism is underrepresented in the population of people who consider Evolution the best explanation to the diversity of life, most people who promote evolution aren't even atheists, they believe in a god. If we want to talk about atheism, talk specifically about what it is, not what it isn't...
Sincere Apology: Sorry to your as well Travis. It's not as though I understand your perspective, but I am trying. It's why I am here.
Witty Response: Don't you know? Quantum mechanics has already conflated you with every theory and belief in existence.
I kid. In all seriousness, it's very difficult for me to understand the atheistic perspective both in general and on a personal level.
If I could draw an analogy of how it makes me feel, atheism to me is like the Dao. It's like emptiness.
To be fair, there is no one single atheist perspective, just like there doesn't seem to be a single theistic one. Knowing someones an atheist really only tells you that the number of gods they believe in is zero, we often disagree on a number of other ideas or subjects. It is rather like how finding out someone is a theist or deist doesn't tell you anything about what god they believe in, it could be yours or similar to yours, but there are many that are different to the point that you really can't compare them. While Christians, Hindus, and Scientologists may fall under the same label categorically, that is pretty much where the similarities end, and I wouldn't expect them to agree on much...
As far as your analogy, it is common enough for people to think atheism is nihilism, but that really isn't that common in actual atheism. I have heard similar things from Hindus, Muslims, and even a Asatru or two; without belief in their god(s) how could life have any meaning at all? Well, none of us believe in Zeus, but that doesn't make your life meaningless does it? Sure, we might not have any divinely mandated goals or meaning, but that doesn't mean that we can't have any goals or meaning. It only means that the goals and meaning we have are not commanded, but rather things we decide on, making them even more relevant and truly meaningful to us.
and if you werent INFLUENCED by religion so dramatically.. (as shown by your need for control and precision), maybe you COULD have a perspective unbiased and able to see the views of others... its sad that someone that claims religion (requiring belief without proof) cant see our way (well thought out and considered based on empirical evidence, or lack thereof)....why is it so hard to use your cognitive abilities?
I apologize for the stereotype comment, please disregard it. I had misread part of your post.
You seem... a bit edgy? Everything alright?
Maybe you're misunderstanding my intentions. I'm not trying to replace the OP, just help the conversation keep going til they return. Like the crappy act before the main attraction? I'll be the first to admit though that I can get a bit carried away when writing.
Let's just part ways then shall we? I don't enjoy conversing with nitpickers... or hair splitters either for that matter.
A bit edgy? wow.... no, this is whats called a NORMAL response to someone that wants to take over the conversation, cant be patient, and controls the whole thing....with long winded and VERY COMPLETE responses to posts....smfh.
Steel arm, you have brought forth some good subjects of debate that demand clarification.
Please start a new topic on each and every subject you stated so we can debate them there and not in this topic.
I left one thing out that I just remembered. Another reason I can't lend credence to evolution right now is the amount of fraud that has been going around among proponents of the theory. I mean, honestly, Nebraska man (and his family) were entirely reconstructed from a SINGLE TOOTH. It's almost like some of these evolutionists are so eager to prove evolution that they'll go to any length to do it. There's so much pro-evolution propaganda around today that evolution doesn't even feel like science anymore, it feels like a religion. Science needs to be done with open mindedness and unbiased. I can respect that, but when people start trying to make square pegs try to fit into round holes, I lose respect for them. That's my biggest complaint about today's scientific industries. It's controlled by politics. Often times science follows the status quo simply to keep their budgets secure. Results of scientific experiments are often skewed to fit an agenda. Science is about finding the truth, not about proving an agenda. None of you can deny that this isn't affecting human progress.
Why are we here?
I guess the simplest answer is that we are here because we are the genetic concoction of two people having sex, that happened to be pushed out of a vagina roughly nine months later.
Why would an atheist make fun of your beliefs?
Everyone has their own reasons. Most atheists don't have any respect for the bible, because it is baseless fiction. We can't see god, measure him, talk to him, know his power or otherwise verify any of the "Miracles" contained in it that are supposed to convince us of its divine authenticity. So the next best explanation for god and the bible, is that it was simply made up to pass along cultural traditions and morals in the form of fictional stories.
Does that answer your questions, Jessie?
JesseJ, thanks for sharing your brave opinion. I respect your belief and I understand why you stay in your belief. It's nice to know that you're open-minded enough to join an atheists forum. keep your mind open and who know where it will take you.
I have no idea why anyone would hate someone JUST for their belief(s). The people I know who hate people of faith for the most part hate them for their belief-based ACTIONS, not for their beliefs. If they JUST believed, and didn't try to foist that belief on others, legislate their beliefs, etc., then I don't think any intelligent atheist would hate them. As to why some of us mock, make fun of or ridicule those beliefs, it is mostly because those beliefs are ridiculous. We ridicule the ridiculous, basically. Don't take it personally though, we don't just ridicule your belief, we ridicule anything that is ridiculous. That's why they call it "ridiculous". (Same root word.)
belief NOT based in action is not a belief....its a wish.
Christians hate atheists all the time for their lack of belief and other people of other religions for not believing the same as they believe, why is the opposite so hard to comprehend?
Best reply of the day! :)
Well it's very hard for me to believe that why people hate someone just because of their region and I know their are many people who are good but same way some of people make things worst for region as they force people to believe in their own region.
then there is also the fact that SO MANY people SAY they are followers of jesus, but then cuss like a sailor.... Following someone doesnt mean doing what you choose to do that MIGHT be like him, it means FOLLOWING HIM COMPLETELY!!! Its not about TRYING to follow, or DOING OUR BEST....
I don't personally hate christians like yourself that are down for a good debate and show respect. I do hate those that blatantly lie and cherry pick from their version of the bible, which, all versions are contradicting in nature. Religion has been used to oppress people for thousands of years and it is time to put a stop to it over a group belief in some mystical creature that has never been shown to exist.
Just a summary.