Greetings ladies and gentleman, this is my first post on the site and I can imagine this is a topic that you've debated frequently, if not endlessly! However, I never really thought that I needed to confront it (as a Catholic) though you may deem it foolish on my part to find difficulty in substituting 'foreknowledge' with 'predestination'.
Though the Calvinistic notion of predestination is a most sickeningly, monstrous doctrine, the position to which the Catholic Church holds is just as egregious and is just as worthy of examination as the Calvinistic variation.
While in the Catholic understanding, God does not actively prescript or impose on certain persons the inevitability of damnation, it holds that God holds 'probable knowledge' of a person's action in their future and therefore circumstances are provided to the 'elect' to aid them in their salvific journey. I cannot debate the logic of this on other sites (such as Catholic Answers) due to the proclivity of members there to post Scripture and the teaching authorities of the various Councils as counter-arguments, if not outright refutation of my attempts to come to an understanding using logic solely.
Therefore, I would like to read your arguments, from my irreligious and religious friends alike on this matter, and from there I will inform my own opinion.
Thank you so much for bearing with my rambling and I look most forward to your arguments!
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The word probable in the phrase probable knowledge seems like a weasel word, unless it is a reference to a probability distribution; which I seriously doubt.
@ Nyarlothep
Most of Catholic theology and practise seems to contain weasel words.
Indeed. Much of it was written by weasely Dominicans and Jesuits. Who do you think wrote the get out of gaol free instructions for pedophile priests? ,
If you want to see an elegant example, take a look an current canon law about marriage annulments . Humbuggery at its finest.
@PeripateticPaddy: 'foreknowledge' with 'predestination'. I don't get how you are linking the two so they can be substituted.
RE: "it holds that God holds 'probable knowledge' of a person's action in their future and therefore circumstances are provided to the 'elect' to aid them in their salvific journey"
Then they are arguing for a God that has limited powers. A god incapable of actually knowing what the future holds. A God without a divine plan. A god who caters to the whims of man. HOW IS THIS NOT OBVIOUS?
You stated you wanted to read arguments, but arguments against what? It does not appear you have sufficiently stated the question.
I agree with Nyarlathotep - "probable" is a bullshit word. Okay "weasel word." Ether there is an all knowing God or there is not. If there is not - it is not the God of the Christian faith. (It certainly is the God of the Bible though. That idiot is a bumbling moron.)
"I agree with Nyarlathotep - "probable" is a bullshit word. Okay "weasel word." Ether there is an all knowing God or there is not. If there is not - it is not the God of the Christian faith. (It certainly is the God of the Bible though. That idiot is a bumbling moron.)"
When I was about 12, I asked the good brother who was my teacher something like "If god knows everything, he already knows everything I will do, and whether I will go to heaven or hell. Why then should I bother? "
His answer: "Knowing what will happen doesn't make it happen:" I thought that was bullshit at age 12, but didn't know why---and THAT was a vast improvement on the usual answer to the knotty theological issues usually raised by thoughtful 12 year olds. Viz: "it's a mystery of faith, we just believe" I kid you not.
PeripateticPaddy:
The real question is whether free will is possible in a deterministic universe, and whether determinism applies only to Newtonian causality, or to quantum reality as well.
PeripateticPaddy: Free will Vs. Predestination makes more sense. Have you listened to the lectures of Sam Harris? "Free Will is a totally incoherent idea. It is impossible." "It's hard to even understand what is being claimed to be true."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g&t=291s
Whether free will is real or not, we live in a world of accountability for our actions. It does us no good to act as if we do not have free will. Whether I am accountable or not for my actions, I have a sense of greater control and psychological stability by assuming I do have free will. I am the conscious author of my actions.
Hello PeripateticPaddy, welcome, and I hope your stay here is beneficial to everyone.
Free Will vs. Predestination
I am an atheist and lack a belief in a god or gods, or anything supernatural. Therefore predestination or lack of free will are just abstract concepts not in my world, and something theists debate.
I choose my own path, and I am also accountable for all of my decisions and actions.
I don't believe in gods, so predestination is a moot point.