God is the source and end of all things, that than which nothing greater can be conceived; uncreated, sufficient, necessary being; infinite, unmeasurable, eternal One, Father, Son, and Spirit; all-present, all-knowing; all-powerful, and all-empowering creator, redeemer, and consummator of all things; immanent without ceasing to be transcendent, Holy One present in our midst; whose way of personal being is incomparably free, self-determining, spiritual, responsive, and self congruent; whose activity is incomparably good, holy, righteous, just, benevolent, loving, gracious, merciful, forbearing, kind; hence eternally blessed, eternally rejoicing, whose holiness is incomparable in beauty. - Thomas Oden "Classic Christianity," - Harper Collins publisher p. 75; 1992.
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. -1 Corinthians 1:18
God is truth. And he desires all to be saved.
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Truly there is a God, although the fool has said in his heart, There is no God[...]
Hence, even the fool is convinced that something exists in the understanding, at least, than which nothing greater can be conceived. For, when he hears of this, he understands it. And whatever is understood, exists in the understanding. And assuredly that, than which nothing greater can be conceived, cannot exist in the understanding alone. For, suppose it exists in the understanding alone: then it can be conceived to exist in reality; which is greater.
-Anselm "Proslogium" ; excerpts from Chapter II via Fordham University Medieval Sourcebook
@ leeuwenheok
Finished preaching? Do you have a point to debate or are we now all meant to embrace your idea of your sect and convert?
You clearly have yet to grasp the argument of the post. Please re-read it for further guidance. If one is a theist (hopefully Christian), then this post will be comforting. If one is an atheist, then I would assume one would respond to this debate forum by either agreeing or disagreeing.
Patronising, lots of claims, no proof, and topped off with an ad hominem attack.
What can such an ignorant and stupid person such as myself possible say to such a pious, devout and learned person such as you?
There are few things in life I dislike more than pious humbug. I truly can't be bothered . Kindly go fuck yourself .
I've also provided the quote from Anselm for further clarification. Please read it too.
@ Lee
You have posted two quotes. Are we to assume your argument is contained in the unevidenced assertions contained within those quotations? If so please identify any evidence you have for the assertion you maintain is the most important to you.
@Leeuwenhoek: RE: "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived."
One question then..... "How do you know?"
It is your job to posit a reason for how God, as defined above, does not exist, or rather that God, as described, is incoherent to actually exist. I've already laid my argument out for the existence of God, as defined above.
In reality, my argument could be posited for any maximally great being who has an inherent trait of necessity- the logic is easily found. It is my goal to show that God does exist, maybe later in the future (some other post) we can discuss whether this matches the God of the Christian faith.
@Leeuwenhoek: What is the god of the Christian faith. You have not yet given a definition yet. All you did was make a bunch of assertions. If this god is beyond your cognition, how do you know anything at all about it. Please explain.
@Leeuwenhoek
You are the one who needs to provide objective evidence your god is real.
@Leeuwenhoek
No, you have not proven anything, just made a lot of assertions. And as an atheist it is not my job to disprove your claims, it is incumbent on you to prove what you assert.
@Leeuwenhoek: How many factless asseertions can you make in just a couple of posts. Let's Count.
1. God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived.
2. God is the source and end of all things.
3. God is un-created, sufficient, necessary.
4. God is infinite
5. God is immeasurable
6. God is eternal
7. God is father, son and spirit
8. God is all knowing and all powerful.
9. God is all-empowering creator, redeemer, and consummator of all things;
10. God is immanent without ceasing to be transcendent
11. OH FOR FUCK SAKE --- MY EYES ARE BLEEDING/
PLEASE PICK ANY ONE AND JUST ANSWER ONE SIMPLE QUESTION.
HOW DO YOU KNOW.
My post deals with number #1 ; the rest are, more or less, fillers. I feel as if you are stalling... How would you define God if not a Maximally Great Being or entity- that than which nothing greater can be conceived?
I'd describe it as an unevidenced delusion, from archaic superstitions. Unless of course you can demonstrate sufficient objective evidence for any deity, as opposed to appeal to ignorance fallacies that attempt to laughably reverse the burden of truth. So can you demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity?
I think we already can infer the answer, or you would have lead with that evidence.
@Leeuwenhoek: 1. God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived.
Nice assertion, how will you prove it?
What will you consider to be proof, when defining what God is?
Then we can take what you will consider to be proof and follow its logical conclusion to a definition that you might deem fit in calling God. In this way, if you are an Atheist, you might see that there is a God- or a definition of a god, that you hold dear.
It's your belief, and thus it's for you to accurately define that belief, and demonstrate objective evidence to support it. It's like me asking you how you would define invisible unicorns.
I think you have a poor understanding of what an atheist is in that case.
@Leeuwenhoek: Tell, you what. Your god is all knowing and so knows exactly what will convince me. Why don't you talk to him and then get back to me.
I am so glad that you recognize that the God I worship is all-knowing. Better yet, God is Love and desires that you would turn to Him to find joy, love, strength, etc. I see you are unable to answer my question about proof, but I deem it is because you are unable to accept any proofs even if you posit a proof system that you'd accept when it concerns God's nature; as you might be afraid that this would cause you to accept the outcomes of your own logic, and show that you do worship a god, if not God.
@ Lee,
Please use the @ protocol to identify to whom you are replying. It will save confusion as this thread grows.
It also helps to quote the reply (in part or full).
@lee,
Thank-you. I am new to this and wasn't aware.
@ Leeuwenheok
That's ok. You should have addressed your last post as
@ Old Man Shouts or @ OMS
You should also know that the forums are not linear. You will find replies to your earlier posts under those posts further up the page. Try scrolling up. When you hit 'reply" it will put that post under the post being replied to.
Confusing? Yep. But we learn to deal with it. Requires a lot of scrolling is all.
@Leeuwenhoek: Soooo?? He is blowing you off and refuses to answer you prayer? Just let him know we are both still waiting. Get back to me when he gives you the word.
@ Cognostic
Because, based off your questioning, we are now debating what is the Maximally Great Being. Who do you worship? I worship the God of the Christian faith.
@Leeuwenhoek: No, we are not debating what is the maximally great being. I can not debate something I can not understand. We are asking you to either show us how you know your maximally great begin can be maximally great or ask him what would convince me that he is maximum great. Why are you dragging your feet?
@Leeuwenhoek
"I am so glad that you recognize that the God I worship is all-knowing. Better yet, God is Love and desires that you would turn to Him to find joy, love, strength, etc. I see you are unable to answer my question about proof, but I deem it is because you are unable to accept any proofs even if you posit a proof system that you'd accept when it concerns God's nature; as you might be afraid that this would cause you to accept the outcomes of your own logic, and show that you do worship a god, if not God."
The christian god of the bible? The god responsible for genocide, torture, and many unspeakable horrors?
The definition I posit about God is not incoherent with reality. Anything can be god for people, but that wouldn't mean that it is God, or even worthy of worship, or devotion, or even an ounce of attention. But a Maximally Great Being is not only worthy of worship, but is coherent with reality, and when shown through the argument, as explained by Anslem above, we do recognize that God does indeed exist.
Or for those who want to be technical: the argument shows that a Maximally Great Being exist, and because of that I will say that is God- and the representation of that God is seen only in the Christian Faith. Thus, when you ask, "how do I know" the debate then is not whether a Maximally Great Being exist (unless we want to debate the intended argument of the post), but rather what is the Maximally Great Being.
@leeuwenhoek
What god are you talking about? You need to provide objective evidence that your god is real. Evidence that can be tested by anyone and get the same results.
@Leeuwenhoek: "If it is not incoherent, please demonstrate how you know it. " And as you have now made a second assertion. Please demonstrate how you know it is not incoherent.
@cognostic
It is not incoherent with the logical argument posited in opening post and the one with Anselm's quote. Unless you say Logic is incoherent, then you are stating a negative.
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